The danger of radical Islam

[goldisheavy]

Please watch this documentary film made by a real moderate Muslim who wants to stop the threat of radical Islam:

 

http://blip.tv/file/1382254

 

Wake up and open your eyes.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Please watch this documentary film made by a real moderate Muslim who wants to stop the threat of radical Islam:

 

http://blip.tv/file/1382254

 

Wake up and open your eyes.

 

Um.... isn't spreading videos like this only going to propagate anti-Muslim feelings, which will only lead to radical ANTI-Islam people, possibly to the point where even moderate Muslims get thrown in with all the other radical Muslims and it just becomes one big cycle of hate and stuff?

 

ANYONE radical has the potential to be dangerous... radical fundamentalist Christians, radical political groups.... anyone. Why target Islam, especially given what most people, quite ignorant people, feel about the issue?

[Stigweard]

Why did you feel the need to post this Gold? Especially on the back of an entire dialogue about the need for interfaith harmony and peace?

 

You queried previously about why I refrain from casting judgements. It is because, from the view of universal mindedness, right and wrong are merely conceptual deviations from true self-nature. For me to condemn someone as being wrong I must fracture my integral nature and subscribe to a narrow, limited frame of reference. So in a sense I am being quite selfish with my attitude of fairness and openness because I have no desire to inflict on myself the violent act of self-division; the act of placing one part of my mind in opposition to another.

 

And as SZ has said above, it is not radical Muslims who are the problem, it is radicalism and extremism on any front ... Even radical anti-radicalism

 

Just as the individuals path to inner peace is about reconciling the disparate, divisive, and opposing elements within oneself so to is the path of greater peace within humanity.

[dragonfire]

All religions are dangerous, not just islam. You go back further enough and you might call

catholicism and christianity radical also. How many people have died because of religion in the past. I'll bet thousands if not hundreds of thousands more than what we see in bombings today. Religion is why we have the problems we have today and have had for thousands of years.

 

All people need is god in their hearts. You don't need a Koran or a bible to tell you what is right and wrong. Humans are not animals.

[goldisheavy]

Stig, I am all about tolerance and inclusiveness. However, if someone is ready to kill their own children in order to get me to believe what that person believes, then all tolerance goes out the window, because I don't think a person who is ready to kill her own children is open to discussion.

 

So rather than pretend it's not there and it's not happening, I see it for what it is. 25% of 1.3 billion is a lot of people. If any information in the video is not true, it should be proven wrong with good evidence.

 

Further, I don't think we should foster an atmosphere where there are taboos. Do you believe taboos lead to peace and happiness? Is critiquing religion a taboo? It shouldn't be. If you close people's mouths -- that's against the natural flow of Tao. Just read Lieh Tzu if you don't believe me.

 

Let's put an end to taboos, and let's talk about our concerns. Now I am concerned about radical Islam. I have read many passages from Koran, and they are outright disturbing. Whereas Christians can claim to only follow what Jesus said (esp. the "red letter Christians") and ignore the Old Testament (where most ugliness is contained in the Bible), the Muslims have no such escape with the Koran, because the entire Koran is attributable to Mohammed, and there are some truly horrible things in it.

Edited March 5, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

If you focus only on what is wrong with the world then you will have a never ending perception and experience of 'wrongness'.

 

It is painfully obvious that extremism in any field is one of the major causes of human suffering. But such distortion of human nature has at it's roots a consciousness that has been severed from it's integralness by the adherence to fixed conceptual ideals and dogmas.

 

I am well aware of the challenges our world faces. But we will not make progressive steps to help resolve such ills by perpetuating the same patterns of consciousness that created these challenges in the first place.

 

If you want to help resolve the extremism that you have identified here in this thread then my suggestion to you is to understand the originating causes of such distortion and resolve this type of fractured consciousness within yourself so that you will then be able to present workable solutions to the world based on your intimate and verifiable understanding of the issues that lay at the very heart of the problem at hand.

[Spectrum]

The danger of you.

[Vajrasattva]

Please watch this documentary film made by a real moderate Muslim who wants to stop the threat of radical Islam:

 

http://blip.tv/file/1382254

 

Wake up and open your eyes.

 

 

Radical Islam & Wahbi is definitely not REAL ISLAM.

 

I believe the True Islam lays in the heart of the Sufi.

 

Islam is about getting closer to GOD, Surrender of Ego, Living by the Hearth & Taking care of the Mosque (Mother Earth) & humanity.

 

Goldisheavy i am going to THANK YOU publically for posting this.

 

Make sure to POST the positive things in Islam as well.

 

Otherwise people will fall into the TRAP as i did many years ago to think that ALL MUSLIMS are terrorists. This is simple NOT TRUE.

 

http://nurmuhammad.com/

 

Salams

 

Santiago Dobles

[Taoist81]

Radical Islam & Wahbi is definitely not REAL ISLAM.

 

I believe the True Islam lays in the heart of the Sufi.

 

Islam is about getting closer to GOD, Surrender of Ego, Living by the Hearth & Taking care of the Mosque (Mother Earth) & humanity.

 

Goldisheavy i am going to THANK YOU publically for posting this.

 

Make sure to POST the positive things in Islam as well.

 

Otherwise people will fall into the TRAP as i did many years ago to think that ALL MUSLIMS are terrorists. This is simple NOT TRUE.

 

http://nurmuhammad.com/

 

Salams

 

Santiago Dobles

 

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/23321/sufi...-pakinstan-iran

[doc benway]

Interesting article on sufism.

This brief excerpt:

"Bakhtiar explains that while the Sufi tradition emphasizes the love of God first, orthodox Muslims teach the fear of God and both sides accuse each other of extremism."

rings very true. Teaching children love and teaching them fear tend to result in fundamentally different attitudes and behavior in adults and is at the core of extremism whether it be Islamic, Christian, or otherwise.

[Vajrasattva]

Real Islam...

 

Salams

 

eBWJx0AymM0

 

IRbe-UqeEzU

[goldisheavy]

The obvious good news is that a whopping 75% of Muslims are neither radical nor sympathizers.

 

Like I said many times before, I tend to resonate with Sufism based on what I've read about it. I believe there are many wise Sufis out there in the world whose words and actions are worth including into anyone's field of consideration.

 

I do wish Sufis could teach their truths without converting people into Islam first though. Do any Sufis do that? I think traditionally Sufis had no choice but to struggle to fit in, and I think they've always had hard time with it. To give anyone who is curious an idea, just go to youtube and look for Sufism videos, and just watch some of the comments below. It's not uncommon to find Muslims who berate Sufis for not being "true Muslims", for being immodest, wild, crazy, heretical and you name it. This is not something that's only recorded in some dusty history books. You can find this kind of dynamic today on the web.

 

One of my concerns is that because Sufis had to play along to survive, that perhaps many of them are seriously impacted by that kind of lifestyle. What I mean is, if you pretend something long enough, it may become internalized and become true.

 

I myself had 2 Muslim friends. One in high school who has shared some very cool computer games with me. And one time there was a Muslim girl who liked me. Unfortunately she was a little crazy from my point of view, but her craziness had nothing to do with religion, it was a 100% girl thing, so I had to say bye bye to her in short order right after meeting her. LOL.

 

On one hand I want to give hugs to all the Muslims as people. I mean I recognize there is a person there who is suffering and who wants a better life, like any of us. But on the other hand, I also want to ask all the Muslims, "how do you deal with the fact that Koran is so very brutal in many regards? Sharia is brutal. Killing apostates is simply a no-no in the modern world. Having sex with slave girls is OK? Yes according to Koran and so on... how do you deal with it?" I know that if I ask a Christian the same thing, they can always tell me, "Well, Jesus overrode all that." Fine. But Mohammed has killed many people himself and has had sex with a 9 year old (I believe that's what it means to consummate a marriage) who has been married at 6. How can Muslims deal with these things?

 

So, as people, I love them. But as far as doctrines go, I think formal Islam is antiquated and needs to enter the halls of history as something that's no longer done. The spiritual wisdom of Sufis is, on the other hand, a very interesting and wonderful thing in my opinion, and that I would like to stay.

[Owledge]

Wouldn't this thread fit better in Off Topic?

 

Whereas Christians can claim to only follow what Jesus said (esp. the "red letter Christians") and ignore the Old Testament (where most ugliness is contained in the Bible), the Muslims have no such escape with the Koran, because the entire Koran is attributable to Mohammed, and there are some truly horrible things in it.

And now add a comment about Judaism to this, please. *hehe*

 

By the way ... of course it's not natural to want to kill your children. So where does it come from? Are the mullahs or whatever, the radical muslim leaders really the source of the problem or a cause? Because it would be because they hunger for power, but there are many other people, who do that, too.

Oh well, I should stop talking in riddles: A good part of radical islamism is intentionally fueled by 'enemies' who are more powerful, thus can afford to do that, and do it to make them appear even more evil in order to justify more and more drastic measures.

 

 

EDIT:

I've now watched the first quarter or the film.

"Radical Islam's Vision for America" - Have you read the Governments vision?! The neocons'? Project for a New American Century?

--> Everybody wants to rule the world. That's what's going on. The methods depicted in the film do also apply to many other factions ... on different levels, because some are pulling the strings of others. The rich elite for example want to rule the world, and zionists, too. But zionism seems to be a mere creation of the Rothschilds. And so often when people don't learn from the past, you have huge irony. It's all pretty complex, mad and old. The more you do research, the more dirt you dig up. The hole gets deeper and deeper, and it remains dirty.

I recently heard something enlightening: Have you noticed that, in military language, wars are called theatres? That tells a lot about the mentality that's in action there.

 

I couldn't possibly write down all that I have learned in the last years. I can only say that we should never fall for the game of "divide and conquer" and put our focus on one enemy-concept that diverts our attention from the true causes behind it.

Watch the two "Zeitgeist" movies - most of what they show is virtually beyond doubt true, and the time is spent a lot better than by watching the TV news or reading the local newspaper.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Hardyg

[Unconditioned]

Please watch this documentary film made by a real moderate Muslim who wants to stop the threat of radical Islam:

 

http://blip.tv/file/1382254

 

Wake up and open your eyes.

 

Just out of curiosity how did they get to the "25%" figure? Sample size?

[goldisheavy]

I like Zeitgeist and I don't like the neocons, however, I have my own head and I can read too. As much as I don't like the neocons I don't find it necessary to be different from them in every conceivable way. My ego is not disturbed if I happen to overlap with neocons in some opinions. Hell, I even agree with Hitler on a point or two. I am nothing even remotely similar to Hitler, but this is why I am who I am -- I can listen to any source of information impartially and because I rely on reason and not on the speaker's personal character, for example, I can benefit from just about any person, even from the most obnoxious and I can learn even from people with whom I am in 99% disagreement.

 

And Judaism, let's say something about that. First of all, I cannot stand the conservative Jews, but they are very few and they don't have any real influence. There are something like 6-12 million Jews compared with 1.3 billion Muslims. It's not even close. Out of those Jews the number of conservatives is tiny. The progressive Jews have their own system. They gave themselves a new name, "Reformed Jews" and they have new rules. They are official about this and they take a stand. A woman can be a Rabi within "Reformed Judaism", for example. That's good. So these Jews have basically thrown the Torah out in some sense. They are changing their religion to something better. And based on my interaction with those people, their religiosity is practically non-existent. They say a prayer before dinner and they attend the synagogue on holidays, and they use that time to chit-chat and have fun and they, in my humble opinion, don't give a rat's ass about religion actually. It's more like a club / spouse pick up service.

 

 

Just out of curiosity how did they get to the "25%" figure? Sample size?

 

I believe that's from a Pew survey. The question was about condoning the terrorist bombings as means of self-expression. If I am wrong, please correct me.

[Taoist81]

snip

I do wish Sufis could teach their truths without converting people into Islam first though. Do any Sufis do that?

 

Some do. Universalist Sufis are an example of a non-traditional Order that now has few ties to Islam. Some of the traditional Orders do as well.

 

I think traditionally Sufis had no choice but to struggle to fit in, and I think they've always had hard time with it. To give anyone who is curious an idea, just go to youtube and look for Sufism videos, and just watch some of the comments below. It's not uncommon to find Muslims who berate Sufis for not being "true Muslims", for being immodest, wild, crazy, heretical and you name it. This is not something that's only recorded in some dusty history books. You can find this kind of dynamic today on the web.

 

This is quite true. A Saudi friend (not an Islamist, he even drinks now) described Sufis as "crazy".

 

snip

 

On one hand I want to give hugs to all the Muslims as people. I mean I recognize there is a person there who is suffering and who wants a better life, like any of us. But on the other hand, I also want to ask all the Muslims, "how do you deal with the fact that Koran is so very brutal in many regards? Sharia is brutal. Killing apostates is simply a no-no in the modern world. Having sex with slave girls is OK? Yes according to Koran and so on... how do you deal with it?" I know that if I ask a Christian the same thing, they can always tell me, "Well, Jesus overrode all that." Fine. But Mohammed has killed many people himself and has had sex with a 9 year old (I believe that's what it means to consummate a marriage) who has been married at 6. How can Muslims deal with these things?

 

All of the Abrahamic faiths include abbhorant teachings. Christ came "not to bring peace, but a sword" and as a "resurrected being" instructed his followers to, contrary to his previous peacefulness, go out and sell their coats to buy a sword if they didn't have one. As you note elsewhere the Torah has violence (and commandments) as bad as the Koran, and similar esoteric beauty. Both Judaism and Christianity have at least a few hundred years of evolution and maturity on Islam though. Keep in mind, however, even Christianity still breeds the likes of the Westbro Baptists and the abortion clinic bombers.

 

So, as people, I love them. But as far as doctrines go, I think formal Islam is antiquated and needs to enter the halls of history as something that's no longer done. The spiritual wisdom of Sufis is, on the other hand, a very interesting and wonderful thing in my opinion, and that I would like to stay.

 

In time Sharia will evolve just as all traditional morality systems do. Just as women no longer conceal their ankles in Western society, less Muslim women wear the Hijab. this will fluctuate until traditional religion as a whole dies out and only the inner truth (if it survives) will remain.

 

As for Zeitgeist, it is a few tidbits of truth mixed with a load of crap. Check out The Power of Nightmares for a very enlightening look at the rise of the Islamist and Neoconservative movements and how they fed each others growth. It doesn't include the sensationalist and bad conspiracy nuttery of Zeitgeist, but does show the real "conspiracy" of the Neocons and their version of the "Noble Lie". You will never look at Bonanza the same way again.

[goldisheavy]

All of the Abrahamic faiths include abbhorant teachings. Christ came "not to bring peace, but a sword" and as a "resurrected being" instructed his followers to, contrary to his previous peacefulness, go out and sell their coats to buy a sword if they didn't have one.

 

Point well taken. However, in my experience, when I criticize Christianity or Judaism for this, I don't get anywhere near the pushback and the demands for "tolerance" as I do when I criticize similar aspects of Islam. It's only when you discuss Islam that there is a lot of pushback and demand for tolerance and basically a demand to shut up and stop talking about it. I am not happy about that.

 

I also don't like that Muslims demand special accommodations from society at large. Like they request gyms where women are not allowed, or they request prayer rooms and so on. Like once there was some guy who wanted a bus driver to stop, cause he needed to pray, without regarding any of the people on the bus. That to me is a horrible trait to have. Mind you, I don't like when Hasidic Jews impose their rules on elevators in NYC either, because they don't allow sparks on Saturday or some stupid thing like that. I am against that, but having a guy in an elevator push a button for you on Saturday is not as onerous as having a special exclusive prayer room for Muslims. If there was a non-denominational prayer/meditation room, that's better, but still excessive in my opinion.

Edited March 5, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Wayfarer64]

I am just plain fed-up with ALL religions!

 

 

If you hope to become closer to spiritual fullfillment- Introspection and meditation do not require a faith - only some quietude...

 

most ISMS suck! To imply your ism is better or needs more concideration than any other ism should be concidered unlawful! Not that such a thing will happen soon - but John Lennon had that one right in his song - Imagine!

[Vajrasattva]

Goldisheavy.....

 

 

1st of all I want to THANK YOU PUBLICLY....

 

2nd of all.....

 

Do you know any real Sufis?

 

Any real Sheiks?

 

 

You have to 1st understand a few things about how things are seen in real SUFISM

 

1) ISLAM - MEANS SURRENDER TO GOD (SOURCE INFINITE/NONCONCEPTUAL MIND/CREATOR OF ALL THINGS)

2) MUSLIM - means wanting to get Closer to God & Serve God his Creation, Mosque & Humanity.

3) MUHAMMAD - Means the ANUR (LIGHT OF ALL CREATION & MANIFESTATION)

4) MOSQUE - the real MOSQUE is MOTHER EARTH

5) Everything in SuFi is hidden in symbols, language, numerical codes, mathematics, Astrology, and Energy Sciences.

 

You see if you understand clearly this is an "ESOTERIC" understanding

 

This is how things where passed down to "ADAM".

 

SILAT = Syariat Ibadah Laku Aqidah Taqwa

 

True ISLAM is TRUE SUFI way.

 

May even be "Original" or old Masonry. It is highly simple Yet Direct and also very esoteric.

 

Quran has many deep esoteric things you have to really learn to read it to understand.

 

It helps to have a sheik that can show you and transmit the actual energies.

 

 

you get it?

 

The only Danger is man's Ignorance.

 

 

By the way THANK YOU AGAIN : )

 

Salams

 

Santiago

Edited March 11, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Apech]

I feel moved to comment that fundamentalist Christian groups seem to preach hate - they hate gays, hate abortion, hate Islam, hate anyone who disagrees with them. They do not seem to read the New Testament - it all sounds like Old testament vengance. In fact you never hear 'love thy neighbour' or especially 'love thy enemy'. If they actually studied the words spoken by Jesus they would have to radically change their beliefs and behaviour.

 

The Bush government confused everyone about Islam and gave a right wing fundamentalist agenda to foreign policy. Blocked European attempts at an entente with Iran and of course invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was nothing to do with 9/11. After years of supporting Israel (right or wrong) against Palestine - is it any wonder that many Muslims feel persecuted and under pressure from the more extreme end of their culture?

 

I am not religious in this sense and do not support any terrorism - I cannot understand how anyone could blow up both themselves and anyone else and think it the right thing to do. But lets not be naive - which is what the main message in this thread is - governments divide us and we should seek to unite.

[goldisheavy]

Vajra,

 

I don't know any "real" Sufis. My interest in Sufis and Sufism was mostly through reading and practicing surrender. Surrender was my main practice when I was in my early 20s. I had a strong devotional-surrender bent. I also read about the drunk vs. sober surrender at the time and I thought that sober was the way for me, whereas I was mostly practicing what I would call the "drunk" way.

 

Unlike many people who also profess to be spiritual, I like logic and reason. I think reason culminates smoothly and gracefully in transcendence of reason. So I don't like any kind of attacks on reason and on conceptual thinking, because I see the conceptual as of one essence with the non-conceptual.

 

BTW, I wanted to share this video here. I think this is a beautiful person:

 

 

I wish I knew more about his condition. Apparently he knew he was going to die when he made that video. I pray I am as happy and composed as he is when my time comes. No scratch that. At any time. I don't want to wait before I am dead to be happy and composed.

 

Also, Vajra, I already knew what you have said there except for SILAT. So, yes I get it. I might not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but I believe I do know some basic concepts. At the same time, if you want to share more information in detail, please feel free. I am getting tired of all the secrecy and almost a "proprietary" nature of much spiritual information. If more people do not start sharing soon, it's possible that I will go on vacation. If everyone wants to keep all the information to themselves, then I am going to keep what I know secret as well. After all, any fool can become enlightened just by observing a single thought or a tree or by listening to one sound, so no one, including myself, is necessary, strictly speaking.

[Wayfarer64]

Yet, the beat goes on...

 

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9...;show_article=1

Edited March 12, 2009 by Wayfarer64

[goldisheavy]

Yet, the beat goes on...

 

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9...;show_article=1

 

This is filthy garbage indeed. I am not going to be tolerant of this any time soon.

[Pietro]

I would like to add a few sticks to the fire.

 

There are a few things for which I really don't like Islam.

 

And I am not speaking here about Radical Islam, but most moderate too. Part of those things which I don't like are also in some Christianity. Those are the most extreme fringes of Christianity, and I don't like them too. And the same to be said for Judaism, or any religion that has them.

 

I am not speaking about violence. Yes, I don't think it is ok for people to bomb themselves. Especially next to other people. But this is not what worries me. I think there is something in Islam that is not ok. That is a serious threat for our society. Something few people speak about, partially because few people see, and partially because many that see, are tied too much to be able to speak up. What I am speaking about, is less disgusting than clitoridectomia, but much, much more dangerous.

 

I am speaking about:

a.) desire to live in a Sharia state.

b.) The concept that someone who is Muslim, who decides that Islam is not his religion, will when dead inhabit the worse hell. In christianity we had a similar concept. It went with the Council Vatican II, when it was accepted that also people who were out of the church could go to heaven. -Something on which, for what is worth, my professor of religion, in high school, was absolutely sure, because... "God, at least Him, could do as He pleased!"

 

 

 

I see those two principles as the real real REAL danger. Because connected together can really bring down the western world.

 

It is not the terror, that can. It is not the terror that will. Terror can be at most a distraction. Statistically speaking.

 

But in a democratic country, if a group of people becomes numerically strong enough they can overturn any law. Even the laws that makes it a democracy. Democracies are based on balances of power (), and as we are learning in Italy in those years, although they are carefully built to resist, they can be unwrapped.

 

So the fact that

Muslim are the number 1 growing religion in many western countries (all?, I am not sure, most? probably),

the fact that they do not permit to people to leave their religion,

the fact that 65% (according to a recent statistics, the data are available ) of Muslims in Britain would rather live under Sharia,

makes it a real danger in my eyes.

 

This is a not much discussed issue (in WH2 banning Sharia, it is only the 300th or so priority), but a well known one, and many decisions are being taken by world leader considering it.

 

Now the number of kids that a family has, strongly correlates with female education. If you want to stop a population from growing you send the girls to school. Muslim around the world are not generally known to have girls education very high in their priority list.

 

And this is the table on which the immigration game is really played.

 

This is also the table on which Israel is playing, as they are trying to have two contraddictory things at the same time. Their own religious state, as well as a democracy. And this is hard enough, without adding a second population, with an exploding population.

 

Muslim who believe that you can leave Islam any time, who do not want to live under Sharia, who do not practice clitoridectomia, and who are not trying to have more than 3 kids, are my friends.

 

Salom to them

Pietro

[goldisheavy]

b.) The concept that someone who is Muslim, who decides that Islam is not his religion, will when dead inhabit the worse hell. In christianity we had a similar concept. It went with the Council Vatican II, when it was accepted that also people who were out of the church could go to heaven. -Something on which, for what is worth, my professor of religion, in high school, was absolutely sure, because... "God, at least Him, could do as He pleased!"

I see those two principles as the real real REAL danger. Because connected together can really bring down the western world.

 

Thank you Pietro. We need to speak up about this. The attitude toward apostates in Islam is extremely wrong and terrible. If it's not abandoned, then I am afraid Islam will be wiped completely off this planet, together with all the good things in it, like Sufism.

 

The murderous and hateful intentions toward apostates are not, completely not acceptable. I think the Koranic attitude toward the apostates is the most dangerous part of Islam. It makes people who are Muslims stuck in Islam because they fear to leave. It's just like being in a gang fo' life. Even when the gangster decides it's time for a better life, one is afraid to leave the gang.

 

The desire to live under Sharia is also dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as the item B on your list, in my opinion.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy