The danger of radical Islam

[Apech]

It's like this notion that women covering their hair and bodies in public is a bad thing, what is demonstrably wrong with this practice? Why would you want to encourage women to abandon their traditional modesty? If your objection is fathers, husbands or brothers actually forcing this on their wives, daughters, mothers and sisters... well, you should realize that this is not the reality for the vast majority of Muslim women that do cover their hair. Many of them wish to remain devoted to God by adopting the modest dress mentioned in the Qur'an and the template of the most prominent of Muslim women. I find it odd that many people in the west take issue with hijab so much but don't have any problems with a nun's habit. You've got to wonder about the real motivations here, and whether or not that's simply a manifestation of a culture where-in most people don't have a public religious life anymore and it's "supposed" to be relegated to enclose structures like convents and monasteries. That's not at all the reality for Muslims, nor indeed many other religions in the world, where certain elements of Islamic practice are regarded as social responsibility. Hijab is one of them, and men also have hijab standards they have to meet. Both parties are enjoined to lower their gaze from the opposite sex, as well.

 

It's truly mind boggling the arrogance that is assumed by people in the West when it comes to Islam especially. It's indicative of the imperialist tendencies still rife in our culture.

 

 

Basically I agree with you and think that most of what 'westerners' think is down to failure to comprehend anything different to themselves. However, I do believe that there are issues of discrimination against women which are abhorent and these are probably (as far as I know) cultural and nothing to do with Islam. In the UK there have been instances of women being 'kidnapped' and taken back to say, Pakistan and forced to marry. Also there have been honour killings of women who have chosen to marry the wrong (in the eyes of the family) person or who have had relationships outside of marriage and so on. Then there is the dreadful practice of female circumcision which is particularly unacceptable to most people.

 

I think the 'shock/horror' value of these things in the press has been mixed with attitudes towards Islamic women's way of dressing - whereas mostly the things are not related. This is quite selective as I know for instance Orthodox Jewish women also cover their hair with wigs but for some reason this is ok, while the hijab is not.

 

Where I would criticize the Muslim leaders is their failure to stand against some of these things - and sometimes give a kind of tacit approval to some of them. If these things are not part of Islam they should say so and they have a responsibility to do so.

Edited September 17, 2009 by apepch7

[goldisheavy]

Zenshiite, thanks for your writing.

 

I think that even if we take the most gentle and merciful interpretation of Koran, we cannot avoid the fact that we need to revise religion anyway. For example, are women the property of men? It's pretty damn clear to me that the answer is "no." Should women be covered up? Again, I think the answer is "no." Why should women be more modest than men? Why don't men cover their heads too?

 

No matter how nice you try to be to religion, it still ends up being unsatisfactory.

 

Obviously many people are not ready to dispense with religion altogether. For their sake we need to adopt these "more enlightened" interpretations as a stepping stone. Long-term though, religion has outlived its usefulness and is getting close to its expiration date.

Edited September 17, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrasattva]

If one relied on Sufi methodology in the 1st place there would be no "Radical" islam problem. Because all one wants in all actions is to be close to Allah and to do the will of the Divine. Love & peace is the 1st priority.

 

One just has to simply see the ultimate essence of the Quran and Islam & all religions itself is contained with in

 

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim

 

 

Salams

 

s

 

 

http://wahiduddin.net/words/bismillah.htm

Edited September 17, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[goldisheavy]

I think a good test of universality of application is this: "Do the exponents of this or that path teach people outside the said path, without any attempts to convert them?" The more we get to "yes", as an answer to this, the more it is OK to leave religion alone. But if the answer is predominantly "no" then we cannot leave religion alone and we need to work hard to weaken the dogma and the rigid mindset that being religious implies. There is even a saying, "I do this religiously." What does it mean? It means I am inflexible about doing it. And this inflexibility is a bad trait. This very inflexibility is what leads us to war.

 

When Capuchin Monks, Rabis, Sufis, and so on begin openly teaching people outside their respective religions, and when they begin being open and inviting to criticism from outside their tradition, we can all begin to grow once again. It's not that there shouldn't be religion at all. I think some form of religion can continue to exist, but not religion as we generally and popularly know it today. The walls must come down.

 

Personally I love a lot of what Sufis say, and Rumi is one of my favorite Sufis and poets of all time, but no way would I become a Muslim. I love what Buddha says, and I don't dislike Buddhism nearly as much as I dislike Islam, but no way would I become a Buddhist. I want to be a free man and becoming an -ist is antithetical to my freedom of thought. Why can't I recognize that someone is wise without becoming a slavish follower of theirs? Of course I can.

 

If more people had the courage to separate wisdom from being an -ist of some kind, we'd have better discussions and more peace. As it stands, various secrecy rules and the inflexible dogma divide us and make discussion impossible. Many things are not subject to discussion either due to secrecy or due to the penchant for dogma. That's not the way forward to an enlightened and peaceful society.

Edited September 17, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Apech]

 

 

Personally I love a lot of what Sufis say, and Rumi is one of my favorite Sufis and poets of all time, but no way would I become a Muslim. I love what Buddha says, and I don't dislike Buddhism nearly as much as I dislike Islam, but no way would I become a Buddhist. I want to be a free man and becoming an -ist is antithetical to my freedom of thought. Why can't I recognize that someone is wise without becoming a slavish follower of theirs? Of course I can.

 

 

 

 

Well said GiH ... let us all be free men.

[NeiChuan]

Well personally I like that saying in the koran that goes something like "If you kill one man its as if you've saved all of humanity" And vice versa with death.

 

When you dont see the other side of the wall there is NO reason.. Ever to make an assumption.. Because the more you believe the original information the harder it is to turn over.. Thats why imo get both sides of the story and believe what you do..

 

I try not to get to involved in politics although what I know is fighting is almost never for the right reason.. Being that its almost always for Control/Cash/ignorance. Thats why I dislike the word terrorist aswell.. because you can so easily use the label even though the first thought goes very far.. Its really that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.. Pushing the envolope is need to actually grow, so be wary of what comes from peoples mouths.. Especially the majority.

[Desert Eagle]

Well personally I like that saying in the koran that goes something like "If you kill one man its as if you've saved all of humanity" And vice versa with death.

 

correction:"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people." 5:32

[vsaluki]

First things first, let's say out right that Wahhabism/Salafism is a deviant sect of Islam that, while considering themselves to be quite orthodox, are in fact extremely heterodox. Even their beliefs about God run in contradiction to traditional Islam... namely, attributing a corporeal form to God.

 

Could you be a little more specific please. As I read the Quran and the Hadith, Wahhabism follows the teaching fairly closely. The prophet mohammed led 17 major military expeditions. If you count all of his expeditions, there were more than 50. He spent very little time in a state of peace with anyone. Mohammed was no Buddha or Jesus.

 

The also work pretty hard to distort the meaning of the Qur'an and hadith to suit their own ends.

 

This claim can be made about anyone that uses the Ahadith for any purpose. The important thing is that, true or untrue, valid or invalid, they form a substantial part of the Sharia and the Muslim religion as it is practiced.

 

Also, the Shariah, the Shariah is something that took centuries to develop and it is continuing to develop.

 

I don't see much in the way of continuing development. Especially in the most objectionable areas.

 

The prescribed punishment for zina is 100 public lashings. And even then there was some stipulation that it shouldn't mutilate or even really leave marks.

 

Can you give me a reference about no marks?

 

As for apostasy, that has some specific conditions in relation to the person that was born into a Muslim family or a person who converted to Islam... but it also is intimately tied up with the status of the early Muslim community in Arabia and the challenges they faced where the apostate was usually switching to the other team and informing on the Muslims.

 

The problem that you have with the death sentence for apostacy is that you place it's meaning into the context of a military struggle rather than a spiritual struggle. Of course that is also the context that Mohammed placed it into. For him, the expansion of his religion was a military struggle. You also have another problem. And this applies to much of the Quran. You have a book of laws and regulations that is claimed to apply for all time, but when it doesn't fit, it's followers claim that it results only from the conditions of the time.

 

To you your religion, and to me mine") it was about literal betrayal of the community in time of war when the Muslims were quite literally being oppressed by the polytheists of Arabia.

 

Most of Mohammed's wars were offensive in nature. And the apostacy law applied to changing religion to Judaism and Christianity, not just polythesism.

 

The same is true in Muslim countries, and I can't recall the last time I heard anything about anyone being executed for apostasy in any country but perhaps Afghanistan under the Taliban. Not even in the much maligned Iran, or the far worse Saudi Arabia.

 

I think that you are just not looking.

http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/02/...y-from-isl.html

 

http://www.compassdirect.org/?aspxerrorpath=/en/display.php

 

Sufism. Sufism is considered to be the heart of Islamic tradition.

 

I'm not sure where you get that idea. At the time of Mohammed's death he left nothing behind that even roughly approximated sufism. The Quran as given by Mohammed is completely devoid of spirituality. Sufism was later invented as an apparent attempt to tack some spirituality on to the religion. Originally many of the founders of Sufism, like Al Hallaj, were beheaded, or declared Apostates, like Al Araby. Some people, like Rumi were very politically astute about how they preached their sufism, and so avoided major problems.

 

Sufism is not the same as Taoist esotericism, nor is it the same as Hindu or Buddhist or Christian or Jewish esotericism. It is unique to Islam and its practices are based upon Islam and the exoteric teachings of Islam.

 

First of all, there are no exoteric spiritual teachings in Islam, outside of Sufism. And Sufi panthesim shares much in common with Hindusim, Buddhism and Tao.

 

For example, show me where you find statements like these from Al Araby in main stream Islam.

 

 

The existence of all created things is His existence. Thou dost not see, in this world or the next, anything beside God. [TB]

 

Thou art not what is beside God. Thou art thine own end and thine own object in thy search after thy Lord. [TB]"

 

Then, of course, there is the Al Hallaj statement, "I am the truth". Where do you find that in mainstream Islam?

 

Most are not saying "we hate you because your religion is different from ours."

 

I'm going to have to differ with you on that as well.

 

Here is what Mohammed had to say about it in the Quran.

 

Quran:

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

 

[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

 

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

 

[4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way.

 

[5.18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults?

 

And let's remember some of these:

 

Quran:

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

 

[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and *** religion should be only for Allah;*** but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

 

And these:

 

Quran:

[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

 

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

 

[4:95] Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath God promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

 

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

 

[8.57] Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.

 

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.

 

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

 

[48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.

 

And perhaps you are refering to things like this when you speak of exoteric teachings:

 

Quran:

[22:19-22] But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.

 

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[4.57] And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, We will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; they shall have therein virgins, and We shall make them enter a dense shade.

 

Please don't tell me how I am taking these out of context unless you are willing and able to demonstrate how their context changes their meaning.

[33865_1494798762]

I said before and I say it again

 

An idea and it's religion can not be dangerous by it self, but the expectation of it certainly can.

That goes for any idea, religious, political, social, security, values, finances, etc. But they are ideas, they are nothing but a symbol. If someone find that a symbol is dangerous, the danger they find is only applied by them self.

[Zenshiite]

Well, you've certainly laid out a great many claims, much of which fall flat if you had any intensive education and study in the field of Islamic studies, rather than Islamophobic tirades. You've also proven yourself quite adept at quoting Qur'an completely out of context. Not only with itself for each verse with the others surrounding them, but the historical context into which those verses were revealed.

 

Furthermore, how do you justify your claim that the wars Muhammad fought were "offensive" given that it's well documented the Meccan polytheists were staunch in resisting Muhammad's preaching(the first full half of which was peacefully done), the historical record that shows the Jewish tribes siding with the Meccan polytheists against Muhammad, AND the constant references in the Qur'an to war that are coupled with "and do not be the aggressor, for Allah does not love the aggressor?"

 

As to your extremely shallow, and fallacious claim that Muhammad never left anything behind that even approximates Sufism. It's laughable. I suggest you scour the supplications of Muhammad and his family for an authentic look at early Islamic spirituality. I'd also suggest you take a look at the thread in the Lobby called 'Greetings from Turkey' where I've included a sermon from 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, specifically about God. And also, Ibn al-'Arabi's formulation of Wahdat al-Wujud is based in the Qur'anic statement "wheresoever you turn, there is the Face of Allah." Of course, had you actually studied Ibn al-'Arabi you'd notice that his sources are almost exclusively Qur'an and ahadith. And you've also misconstrued Wahdat al-Wujud by calling it "pantheism." A mistake that Wahhabis tend to make as well.

 

You also clearly don't have a grasp on the meanings of exoteric and esoteric.

 

Please, take your vitriol elsewhere.

 

Could you be a little more specific please. As I read the Quran and the Hadith, Wahhabism follows the teaching fairly closely. The prophet mohammed led 17 major military expeditions. If you count all of his expeditions, there were more than 50. He spent very little time in a state of peace with anyone. Mohammed was no Buddha or Jesus.

This claim can be made about anyone that uses the Ahadith for any purpose. The important thing is that, true or untrue, valid or invalid, they form a substantial part of the Sharia and the Muslim religion as it is practiced.

I don't see much in the way of continuing development. Especially in the most objectionable areas.

Can you give me a reference about no marks?

The problem that you have with the death sentence for apostacy is that you place it's meaning into the context of a military struggle rather than a spiritual struggle. Of course that is also the context that Mohammed placed it into. For him, the expansion of his religion was a military struggle. You also have another problem. And this applies to much of the Quran. You have a book of laws and regulations that is claimed to apply for all time, but when it doesn't fit, it's followers claim that it results only from the conditions of the time.

Most of Mohammed's wars were offensive in nature. And the apostacy law applied to changing religion to Judaism and Christianity, not just polythesism.

I think that you are just not looking.

http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/02/...y-from-isl.html

 

http://www.compassdirect.org/?aspxerrorpath=/en/display.php

I'm not sure where you get that idea. At the time of Mohammed's death he left nothing behind that even roughly approximated sufism. The Quran as given by Mohammed is completely devoid of spirituality. Sufism was later invented as an apparent attempt to tack some spirituality on to the religion. Originally many of the founders of Sufism, like Al Hallaj, were beheaded, or declared Apostates, like Al Araby. Some people, like Rumi were very politically astute about how they preached their sufism, and so avoided major problems.

First of all, there are no exoteric spiritual teachings in Islam, outside of Sufism. And Sufi panthesim shares much in common with Hindusim, Buddhism and Tao.

 

For example, show me where you find statements like these from Al Araby in main stream Islam.

The existence of all created things is His existence. Thou dost not see, in this world or the next, anything beside God. [TB]

 

Thou art not what is beside God. Thou art thine own end and thine own object in thy search after thy Lord. [TB]"

 

Then, of course, there is the Al Hallaj statement, "I am the truth". Where do you find that in mainstream Islam?

I'm going to have to differ with you on that as well.

 

Here is what Mohammed had to say about it in the Quran.

 

Quran:

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

 

[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

 

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

 

[4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way.

 

[5.18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults?

 

And let's remember some of these:

 

Quran:

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

 

[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and *** religion should be only for Allah;*** but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

 

And these:

 

Quran:

[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

 

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

 

[4:95] Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath God promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

 

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

 

[8.57] Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.

 

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.

 

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

 

[48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.

 

And perhaps you are refering to things like this when you speak of exoteric teachings:

 

Quran:

[22:19-22] But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.

 

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[4.57] And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, We will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; they shall have therein virgins, and We shall make them enter a dense shade.

 

Please don't tell me how I am taking these out of context unless you are willing and able to demonstrate how their context changes their meaning.

[vsaluki]

Edited September 18, 2009 by vsaluki

[Vajrasattva]

You want to know real Muhammad spend time with Real Sheiks.

 

wsalams

s

[vsaluki]

You want to know real Muhammad spend time with Real Sheiks.

 

You mean like Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman?

 

The relationship of a Muslim to god must be one of fear. This is clearly stated in the Quran.

 

[3.175] It is only the Shaitan that causes you to fear from his friends, but do not fear them, and fear Me if you are believers.

 

[7.56] And do not make mischief in the earth after its reformation, and call on Him fearing and hoping; surely the mercy of Allah is nigh to those who do good (to others).

 

[8.2] Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do they trust.

 

[9.13] What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

 

[9.18] Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate and fears none but Allah; so (as for) these, it may be that they are of the followers of the right course.

 

[9.109] Is he, therefore, better who lays his foundation on fear of Allah and (His) good pleasure, or he who lays his foundation on the edge of a cracking hollowed bank, so it broke down with him into the fire of hell; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

 

[16.50] They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.

 

[20.3] Nay, it is a reminder to him who fears:

 

 

The fear relationship is clearly not one that the Sufis would support. Nor would the mystics of any other religion support that kind of relationship. Additionally, the fear relationship is completely inconsistent with a pantheistic god. When everything is divine, there is no fear of god. When self and god are one, there is no fear of god. Do you ever hear Buddha or Lao Tse say that god must be feared.

[Vajrasattva]

Sheik Pak Muhammad or Sheik Nazim.

 

real sufi sheiks.

[Prince...]

 

The fear relationship is clearly not one that the Sufis would support. Nor would the mystics of any other religion support that kind of relationship. Additionally, the fear relationship is completely inconsistent with a pantheistic god. When everything is divine, there is no fear of god. When self and god are one, there is no fear of god. Do you ever hear Buddha or Lao Tse say that god must be feared.

 

I can't speak for the Quran because it's been awhile since I've read one and have no knowledge of arabic, but I can say that in the Hebrew Bible when it says to fear God-- the hebrew word used can also mean respect. Instead of the beginning of wisdom starting with fearing God::The respect for God is the start of all wisdom.

 

If we are all created in God's image or if God has endowed us with the breath of life from God then why should we fear what is a part of us? We should respect the God aspect in us by knowing who we are as a small part of the Whole.

 

I wonder if Muslims, Christians, and Jews can agree on that single point? And if not...how about Esoteric Christians, Sufis, and Cabbalists?

 

I think I'll stop now...I'm starting to sound like I've been reading the Gospel of Thomas too much!

Edited September 18, 2009 by Prince...

[vsaluki]

I can't speak for the Quran because it's been awhile since I've read one and have no knowledge of arabic, but I can say that in the Hebrew Bible when it says to fear God-- the hebrew word used can also mean respect.

 

I think that the context of verse [9.13] that I gave above shows clearly that it is fear, not respect, that is meant. I also believe that the old testament promoted the fear of god. Look at the calamities that he sent down on various people. Islam is, in many ways, a derivative of Judaism. And it shares may of the same flaws.

 

And if not...how about Esoteric Christians, Sufis, and Cabbalists?

 

I think if you put Al Araby, Al Hallaj, St. John of the Cross and Meister Ekhart in the same room together they would agree on almost everything. In fact, they would likely agree with Lao Tze and Buddha as well. I don't know much about the Cabbalists, so I really can't say anything there.

[Loke]

[goldisheavy]

vsaluki makes excellent points.

 

Anyone claiming that there is no conflict between sufism and Koran is just naive. There is a damn good reason why sufis are often persecuted.

 

"real sheikh" my ass. What is considered "real" is going to differ from person to person. Of course sufis will not think of any non-sufi sheiks as real. And vice versa is also true.

 

Muhammed was not a nice guy. And Islam is not a nice religion. Of course even in the middle of shit you'll often find a flower growing. Such is much of sufism. You still have to admit that it's shit that surrounds it though.

 

Look as these beautiful, wise, peaceful, tolerant Muslims:

Edited September 18, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Apech]

vsaluki makes excellent points.

 

Anyone claiming that there is no conflict between sufism and Koran is just naive. There is a damn good reason why sufis are often persecuted.

 

"real sheikh" my ass. What is considered "real" is going to differ from person to person. Of course sufis will not think of any non-sufi sheiks as real. And vice versa is also true.

 

Muhammed was not a nice guy. And Islam is not a nice religion. Of course even in the middle of shit you'll often find a flower growing. Such is much of sufism. You still have to admit that it's shit that surrounds it though.

 

Look as these beautiful, wise, peaceful, tolerant Muslims:

 

 

Goldisheavy,

 

I am bit surprised that someone who usually seems so rational and objective falls for all this Islamophobia. No religion is 'nice' in the way you suggest - certainly none of the religions of the book, any period of history will bear this out. Even different Tibetan Buddhist sects slaughtered each other in times past.

 

The fact is that many Muslim countries are now in areas of huge geo-political tension (for want of a better phrase) - religion together with economic and other factors are exploited by the power hungry to cause people to project their hate and fear on another group, instead of on those who keep them in poverty, they are exploited for political purposes. For instance before the creation of the state of Israel, Christians, Muslims and Jews lived happily next to each other in the Middle East.

 

I was, I have to admit ,under the impression that those of us that gravitate to Taobums tend to be mystics of various kinds and that we understood the difference between esoteric teachings and the different orthodoxies which are all about socio-political control.

 

A.

[goldisheavy]

Goldisheavy,

 

I am bit surprised that someone who usually seems so rational and objective falls for all this Islamophobia.

 

Is it possible to criticize Islam and avoid that label?

 

No religion is 'nice' in the way you suggest - certainly none of the religions of the book, any period of history will bear this out.

 

Exactly. And do I support any of them? Hell no, I don't. When Christians are criticized for their flaws in USA, people sit up and listen and no one is labeled "Christophobe". Why can't the same be true of Islam? Why is Islam so fucking special?

 

Even different Tibetan Buddhist sects slaughtered each other in times past.

 

Well, the video I linked is not one of the past -- it is current events. However, I've criticized Tibetan Buddhists and other Buddhists plenty of times. I don't make favorites.

 

The fact is that many Muslim countries are now in areas of huge geo-political tension (for want of a better phrase) - religion together with economic and other factors are exploited by the power hungry to cause people to project their hate and fear on another group, instead of on those who keep them in poverty, they are exploited for political purposes. For instance before the creation of the state of Israel, Christians, Muslims and Jews lived happily next to each other in the Middle East.

 

I was, I have to admit ,under the impression that those of us that gravitate to Taobums tend to be mystics of various kinds and that we understood the difference between esoteric teachings and the different orthodoxies which are all about socio-political control.

 

A.

 

Fact is -- many esoteric teachings are sort of bolt-ons when it comes to religious association. Mystics have had to live alongside insane religious folks for as long as there has been religion, and of course mystics try to justify their existence and relevance via the dominant religion of the area. They are not present in the "orthodox" texts. For example, Zohar, a Jewish mystical text, is a revelation that occurred privately in the cave, outside the context of the Torah.

 

If you're a real mystic, like me, then you understand that mysticism doesn't come from the book and nor does it come from tradition. Of course mysticism is informed by all kinds of books and it exists within a context, but this context does not play favorites.

 

I'm still the same person I've been on Taobums. I'm sure I am changing, as always, but I haven't changed much since the time I joined this forum. So if you liked the "old me", you can continue to like me. If you don't like what I am saying now about Islam, perhaps you were deluded about me in the past.

 

I stand for reason and responsible personal freedom. I don't stand for sectarianism or religion. I detest organized religion and believe it has no place on Earth. Islam, of all the organized religions with large numbers of adherents is the worst religion on this planet, currently. Although Christians are a close second and may overtake Muslims in evilness if they so wish.

Edited September 18, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrasattva]

 

 

"real sheikh" my ass. What is considered "real" is going to differ from person to person. Of course sufis will not think of any non-sufi sheiks as real. And vice versa is also true.

 

Muhammed was not a nice guy. And Islam is not a nice religion. Of course even in the middle of shit you'll often find a flower growing. Such is much of sufism. You still have to admit that it's shit that surrounds it though.

 

Look as these beautiful, wise, peaceful, tolerant Muslims:

 

when have you spent time with real sheiks? & Ones that are in-fact descendants of Muhammad via blood line? Also what transmission do you have that is of Muhammad's to know what he was like or not like?

 

Please you can not judge something you don't actually have any experience with.

 

I too saw Islam as BAD for many years till i met the "real" thing with in Islam. I was guilty of making irrational assumptions becuase of radical Islam. You can NOT KNOW unless you have direct experience.

 

Its that simple. You will never see the GEMS in the Quran or ISLAM unless you really know what the stuff in there means and how its to be used etc.

 

So in the mean time just accept that there is "taint"/"Corruption" in all religions. Islam is not free of it just like all religions are not free of it. BUT before you speak of Muhammad & actual Sheiks, have direct experience of Muhammad's true energy & actual Sheiks 1st.

 

Then speak after the fact. Sit down and meditate with real sheiks and see what happens.

 

 

Salams

 

Santiago

Edited September 18, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Zenshiite]

Has anyone else noticed that vsaluki, joined just yesterday and even in his introduction post in the Lobby he starts attacking Islam from the get go. You've got to wonder about his purpose here, especially with obvious cut & pastes from anti-Islam websites.

 

I have neither the time, nor the inclination to engage in this "debate" too much(after all, you cannot have a debate with people who have obviously made up their minds via their own very small very limited and clearly very targeted preconceptions-filled explorations into the vast tradition that is Islam) as we are in the last couple days of Ramadan and this is proving far too distracting during this time of reflection, devotion and self-purification.

 

Needless to say, I could come up with more ahadith taking a positive view of women and talking them up than this vsaluki has posted in the negative. Ahadith are a mixed bag, no doubt.

 

As for contextualizing Quranic statements, let's take for example this:

 

[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

That is a single verse pulled from a larger body, and to use that single verse distorts the entire message being delievered.

 

[shakir 9:1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

[shakir 9:2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

[shakir 9:3] And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

[shakir 9:4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[shakir 9:5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[shakir 9:6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

[shakir 9:7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[shakir 9:8] How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.

[shakir 9:9] They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do.

[shakir 9:10] They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits.

[shakir 9:11] But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

[shakir 9:12] And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

 

The entirety of the passage sheds some light on this particular verse, makes it clear that this is an order to fight those who have broken their treaties with the Muslims. Furthermore, when I said the Meccan polytheists resisted Muhammad's preaching I mean that they quite literally accosted him on a regular basis, threw entrails and other filth on him. When his preaching spread and people started following his preaching... the followers and their families were persecuted. The first martyrs of Islam were an elderly couple, the parents of prominent companion Ammar bin Asar. They were tortured and executed because of their belief in Islam. The Abyssinian Bilal was the slave of one of the Meccan leaders and because he professed Islam he was tortured until Muhammad told his companion Abu Bakr to buy his freedom. A group of Muslims, led by Jafar ibn Abi Talib, fled to Abyssinia because Muhammad told them they could take refuge with the Negus because he was a Christian king. The Meccans chased them there, then sent a delegation demanding their return... which the Negus refused to do. The Meccans leaders also persecuted Muhammad's entire clan and expelled them from Mecca and cut them off from trade, leaving them stranded in the desert for quite some time. It was during this period that Muhammad's first wife, Khadija, died. Shortly thereafter, the Meccan leaders plotted to assassinate Muhammad in the middle of the night. He came to know of this plan and fled to Yathrib, which came to be known as Medina, where he had been invited to mediate the disputes there between fueding tribes. Those Muslims that stayed behind in Mecca after most others had migrated to Medina where then persecuted and their property seized by the Meccans. This is what led, ultimately, to the Battle of Badr and warfare between Muhammad and the polytheist Arabs. He began as a raid on a caravan that was making off with the property of the Muslims, to get their belongings back. They ended up going into battle against an army of 1000 from Mecca with only 313 fighters. They won.

 

I can tell you what history records. All vsaluki can do is come up with an alternate interpretation against the recorded history that suits his own polemic and the polemic of the Islamophobic, right wing Christian fundamentalists whose websites he's cutting and pasting from.

 

I also find it amazing strange that a person can claim there is no spirituality in the Qur'an or Muhammad, and yet 'Ali(first Shi'a Imam, fourth Caliph, second only to Muhammad in all initiatic chains of transmission in all but one of the Sufi Orders), Fatima(the daughter of Muhammad, wife of 'Ali), Hasan(grandson of Muhammad, second Shi'a Imam and fifth Caliph), Husayn(grandson of Muhammad, third Shi'a Imam), Ali ibn al-Husayn(great grandson of Muhammad, fourth Shi'a Imam), Muhammad ibn 'Ali al-Baqir(fifth Shi'a Imam), Jafar ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq(sixth Shi'a Imam, also in many of the Sufi chains of transmission), Musa ibn Jafar al-Kazim(seventh Shi'a Imam also in Sufi lineages), 'Ali ibn Musa al-Rida(eigth Shi'a Imam also very prominent in Sufi lineages), Muhammad ibn 'Ali al-Hadi(ninth Shi'a Imam), 'Ali ibn Muhammad an-Naqi(tenth Shi'a Imam), and Hasan ibn 'Ali al-Askari(eleventh Shi'a Imam) have a wealth of supplications and philosophical and gnostic sayings all of which they link back to Muhammad. His very family. Especially 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husayn and 'Ali ibn al-Husayn Zayn al-Abideen. 'Ali was basically raised from early childhood by Muhammad. To say what this member has said regarding the spirituality of Islam and its prophet is not only grossly inaccurate, but deliberately misleading and false.

 

There are just some selections from the family of Muhammad:

Imam 'Ali's Nahj al-Balaghah

Sahifa al-Zahra of Fatima

Sahifa al-Sajjadiya or the Psalms of Islam by Zayn al-Abideen

Latern of the Path by Jafar as-Sadiq

Edited September 19, 2009 by Zenshiite

[goldisheavy]

Vajrasattva, it's obvious that not everyone who calls themselves a Muslim is a person whose culture hasn't progressed in the past 500 years or so.

 

At the same time, I am concerned about the amount of mental gymnastics that people are willing to engage in. I'm all for mental flexibility as an ability that's good to have, but given that ability, one should still has to make some choices. For example, I can see how there is nothing wrong with eating babies. It is pure. There is nothing wrong with cutting a head off the cow and showing those stupid Hindus where it's at. That's fine. There is nothing wrong with torturing people. In the ultimate realm of mental flexibility I accept these things. It's also not wrong for me to eat a Sheikh for dinner either. I understand all that. At the same time, I don't exercise everything in my realm of action because I make choices. I choose to have some relative morality. Therefore I don't eat babies and I don't eat Sheikhs for dinner. I also, because I choose to have a relative moral system, do not support cutting heads off cows for the purpose of demonstrating against Hindus. Muslims threaten violence against someone who makes a cartoon of Mohammed, but they will cut the cow's head off? WTF?

 

Not everything bad you see in the world is a corruption of the original message. We have to get enough maturity in ourselves to admit that sometimes the original message was pretty crappy.

 

Some stuff in the Bible is trash. OK, not some stuff, but most of it. Obviously this includes Torah. Heck, even if you check out Zohar, is it really all that good? In my opinion, it's not. It is overhyped. Just because someone receives a vision in the cave does not make it worth hyping so much. Buddhist have this one thing right -- phenomena are empty. So Buddhists do not attach too much importance to visions and do not elevate any one particular vision to be absolutely holy above all else. This is one area where other religions can learn something from Buddhism.

 

Even, let's say we take Christ himself, which is not terrible, but just how helpful is he to a spiritual seeker? In my judgment -- not that helpful at all. Christ creates more confusion and more questions than he provides elucidation. So real spiritual seekers have to look beyond the traditional "prophets" for wisdom. For example, Christ said that rich people have a hard time getting into heaven, but why? What's heaven? He never tells you why. He doesn't explain what heaven is. Etc. The quality of the text is garbage. A good text should define all the important terms, and if it makes a heavy statement, it needs to support it with a lot of evidence and reasoning so that reasonable people have a chance to disagree.

 

Imagine if the same lame, flippant approach that the Bible writers took was used in today's science or in any area of philosophy? It would be laughed at! Today we expect some rigor from our texts. We expect some level of clarity. And yea, it's possible to deliver that. Many Buddhist texts have excellent clarity and rigor, even though I don't consider Buddhism to be perfect, but its texts are heads and shoulders above all other religions in quality.

 

I have an enormous problem when modern people take something their long-time descendant did and try to use mental gymnastics to exonerate them and to cast them in a positive light. This is what makes us unable to move forward in time. Muhammed was a murderous crazy bastard, and you just need Koran and Hadith as your evidence for this. Of course Muhammed treated his kin decently -- who doesn't? The real test of man's character is how he treats those whom society spurns! In this case Jesus was excellent, as he treated prostitutes and other social rejects nicely and with the same love as he has for anyone. The same cannot be said of Mohammed.

 

I'm just really tired of cutting religion slack because it's traditional. Fuck that.

[Zenshiite]

^Man, you're so off base about Muhammad it's not even funny. The overwhelming majority of his followers were, in fact, the rejects of his society. Hence why he was persecuted and laughed at by the Meccan leaders.

[goldisheavy]

Has anyone else noticed that vsaluki, joined just yesterday and even in his introduction post in the Lobby he starts attacking Islam from the get go. You've got to wonder about his purpose here, especially with obvious cut & pastes from anti-Islam websites.

 

That sounds spooky! Oh noes, someone doesn't like Islam, what are the chances of that???? It's like Muslims are peaceful loving people that give no one any reason to dislike them right? Pffftt....

 

I have neither the time, nor the inclination to engage in this "debate" too much

 

And who has? This thread was dead for a while until someone resurrected it.

 

Needless to say, I could come up with more ahadith taking a positive view of women and talking them up than this vsaluki has posted in the negative. Ahadith are a mixed bag, no doubt.

 

Finally a serious discussion. It's a mixed bag, exactly. Now maybe you are ready to face reality.

 

As for contextualizing Quranic statements, let's take for example this:

 

[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

That is a single verse pulled from a larger body, and to use that single verse distorts the entire message being delievered.

 

[shakir 9:1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

[shakir 9:2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

[shakir 9:3] And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

[shakir 9:4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[shakir 9:5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[shakir 9:6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

[shakir 9:7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[shakir 9:8] How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.

[shakir 9:9] They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do.

[shakir 9:10] They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits.

[shakir 9:11] But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

[shakir 9:12] And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

 

OK, so this is an appropriate amount of context now, right? Let's criticize this. First of all, it is none of mystic's business to declare punishments. What should and shouldn't be punished and how severely is a matter of political process and has nothing to do with mystical insights nor with divine revelation.

 

The problem with what you quote, is that there is a ton of room for interpretation! For example, if someone reviles your religion you are free to kill that person, right? Why? Why can't you just revile them in return without physical violence? That's one question. Second, what is "revile"? Is criticism of Islam "reviling Islam"? Is drawing a funny cartoon of Mohammed "reviling Islam"? Do you see the problem here? The problem is that a Sheikh has a lot, a lot of latitude on what to declare as slanderous and what to let pass, and once the Sheikh declares something slanderous, he can, according to Koran, ask his followers to kill the offensive people! that's an enormous problem.

 

For example, protesters in Iran are detained, tortured, anally raped. And what do the rapists say when questioned? They say they have permission from Khomeini for these brutal actions! ATROCIOUS! How can you or anyone respect this?

 

It's not religion's nor mystic's business to declare punishment for this very reason. It's all too easy to cast someone with a disagreement into the role of vile heretic.

 

^Man, you're so off base about Muhammad it's not even funny. The overwhelming majority of his followers were, in fact, the rejects of his society. Hence why he was persecuted and laughed at by the Meccan leaders.

 

Let me tell you something. Once upon the time Jews were rounded up and slaughtered in concentration camps. It was very sad. Does this make it OK for Jews to make Palestine into a concentration camp today? Because in the past they suffered greatly?

 

Just because Mohammed was abused does not excuse all the atrocities he has committed in order to establish himself as a force to be reckoned with in the region. Nor does it excuse any of his modern followers, who are spoiled little petulant children, to use violence in places like the UK.

 

Sometimes rejects of society are assholes, like the KKK. Sometimes, like prostitutes, they are rejected out of ignorance. There is a difference. Even a KKK member should not be dealt with violently as long as they don't use violence themselves. If someone opens up a website full of hate speech, like a KKK member, we show our disgust by verbally criticizing them. We don't gather to stone this person and we do not cut off his hand or tongue or any such barbaric thing.

 

Why don't you read about Ginghis Khan or Hitler. Even Hitler had good qualities. For example, Hitler was a vegetarian. Ginghis Khan treated his friends and allies very very well. They were still assholes though, in the grand scheme of things, just like Mohammed was an asshole who had some good qualities.

Edited September 19, 2009 by goldisheavy