Violence

[AbsoluteBeginner]

What would a Taoist do if someone threatens her or him with violence?

[DaoChild]

Smile and walk away.

 

Key word: threaten.

 

If they act, you need to too.

Edited March 6, 2009 by DaoChild

[therion]

........

Edited July 15, 2009 by therion

[Mak_Tin_Si]

When you are a real obtained taoist, you should really not have any chance of being threaten when you are doing your trianing good and following the guildlines.

 

If the practitioner actually got into a threatening situation like a robbery came up or something, what we can usually do is recite the "master mantra" in your mind and there shall be something that will happen to the person soon before he can harm you. Or even if he slice you with a knife, the knife will not cut into your flesh because your "FAAT" (taoism energy) will be repelling the blades for you just like how chi gung works with iron shirt. So real taoism practise gives you some protection too. But of course, you really need a master and learn under a lineage for this type of ability.

 

To avoid violence happen, you shall always look into the cause and effect. If you have not been violent to others, there shall be no chance of you being threaten violently by others. This is the balance of the world and karma effect. When there is an "effect" there is always a "cause". Everything can be explained of "why" it happened in this world. when we can avoid the "root cause" of becing threatened by violence, why worry?

 

Root cause of "being threaten by violence" is the other way around -- "threatening peole with violence". If you can avoid this happen, then there shall be no problem and you shall not even have to worry about being threaten in your life by violence!

 

Taoism is a study of nature, put it into everyday practise and you will find out that there is always a pattern and system in nature that put things together with some "cause and effect" rules. If you do not see it, it's time to observe yourself and see what's wrong that caused all these problems to happen in your life. Why you? why not your friend? why not your parents? Why?

 

When you can answer the "why" you are stepping into Tao.

 

Mak Tin Si

[AbsoluteBeginner]

The energy will repel the blade??! That sounds like a scene from Dragon Ball Z! Hard to believe... Do you know someone who is able to ward off physical attacks with his or her faat?

 

But something is contradictory:

When I was at school, there were some guys who bullied me. Although I haven't done harm to them. Why did the Tao allow this?

[Wayfarer64]

If the now of yr Tao offers you violence it may be time to learn something about violence. Or perhaps teach something about it!

 

I do not fear nor loath violence. I accept its presence in the world and do my best to be harmonious enough to evade it...but when it is my turn to reform or re-establish harmony, (even if by using violence) then that is my role to play at that time...

 

It is similar to the Krishnamurti tale about the neighbor last week-

 

Remain calm and relaxed as yr able and try not to hurt anyone more than is needed to disuade them from further mayhem...

[Spectrum]

The center of a tornado is calm.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Learn it yourself and you will believe when you feel it yourself.

 

You get bullied in school because of your own actions and karma generated for a reason. Find the source and you will know why. It's not that hard to find out. But it can also be a good thing sometimes because it's giving your life more "test" and "quest" to make you grow up. part of life exp!

 

The energy will repel the blade??! That sounds like a scene from Dragon Ball Z! Hard to believe... Do you know someone who is able to ward off physical attacks with his or her faat?

 

But something is contradictory:

When I was at school, there were some guys who bullied me. Although I haven't done harm to them. Why did the Tao allow this?

[Squatting Monkey]

You get bullied in school because of your own actions and karma generated for a reason.

 

Rubbish. Tell that to the parents of kids who have committed suicide due to bullying. This is the real world we are talking about, not the world of the secluded mountain hermit.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

you do not see the "root cause" in nature, that is why you got flooded with confusion in life all the time too. Observe and you find answers all the time.

 

Rubbish. Tell that to the parents of kids who have committed suicide due to bullying. This is the real world we are talking about, not the world of the secluded mountain hermit.

[NeutralWire]

You get bullied in school because of your own actions and karma generated for a reason. Find the source and you will know why. It's not that hard to find out. But it can also be a good thing sometimes because it's giving your life more "test" and "quest" to make you grow up. part of life exp!

 

Rubbish. Tell that to the parents of kids who have committed suicide due to bullying. This is the real world we are talking about, not the world of the secluded mountain hermit.

 

I agree with Mak_Tin_Si here for certain.

 

A time of grief for a parent would certainly not be the moment to tell them (!), but all things happen as they should in my opinion. This is the concept of fate that is held not just in Taoism but in many other streams of human wisdom also. There are no mistakes in what happens to us.

 

I would go far further than Mak_Tin_Si actually -- he says that it it 'can be a good thing', but I say that all such events are things we deliberately subject ourselves to, in order to learn specific things. Therefore in that sense they are all good things. There is no difference between the necessary and the good, if looking at things from the divine point of view, which is the best one for a spiritual cultivator.

 

I know that karen has said this about illness -- it is a blessing and an opportunity, and we choose it (at a level upon which we are not at that moment conscious), because we need it.

 

I'd say it applies to affliction of other kinds too. I would love to know whether Mak_Tin_Si would agree that we deliberately choose as human beings to undergo things in order to learn. The circumstances of our lives are laid down by fate, what I call Moira, but this fate is planned with our full nonphysical co-operation. As Mak_Tin_Si implies, ("find the source and you will know why"), when we are in touch with the parts of ourselves that do flow with fate and with these events, we will see their wisdom.

 

It is not a truth that everyone is always ready to hear, but someone in spiritual training should IMO be ready to face the idea that their entire life circumstance is wholly just, and self-chosen in a spiritual sense. This of course gives you both responsibility and also freedom.

 

I know this doctrine splits the 'bums though. I remember Trunk for example saying that he certainly did not believe it.

 

Rawn Clark's comments about what Bardon calls 'Divine Providence' are relevant:

 

It is common for us to wonder how the unpleasant aspects and events of life can exist in a universe permeated by a Benevolent deity... from the eternal perspective of the Unity, benevolence is an undercurrent in All events, even the most unpleasant ones.

 

Suffering exists for a reason. It teaches us lessons that we have not been able to otherwise learn through more pleasant means. So at the core of each unpleasant situation lies the divine benevolence that knows this is the way in which we must learn -- it is the root lesson that holds the benevolence, the manifestation of events is itself secondary. The only way sometimes, to perceive the divine benevolence behind unsavory events is to broaden one's perspective to include lifetimes instead of single moments.

 

This is 'the real world', for all human beings, both in the city with the millions and alone on the mountain.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

Edited March 8, 2009 by NeutralWire

[Mak_Tin_Si]

I cannot admit that your reply above is very "COLORFUL" and "EASY TO READ" because you highlighted alot of my names around so I know where to read. hahaha!

 

Taoism do teaches about fate and fate is something generated by yourself and your own actions. Just "cause and effect" - what you do now is what you get later, zero mistakes from nature.

 

so you get punch in the face now, is because of you did.........in the past.

 

This life you are wealthy because in the past life you did..............and that is why.

 

you can experiement it all in your daily life already, very very easy and obvious law in nature. If you said that why nature is doing this to you and it's unfair.. you are just whinning and complaining because you do not know the "root cause". once you found out, you know you deserve what you get today.

[Apech]

While I am sure it is true that we learn lessons from suffering, I think it would not be helpful to suggest to a victim of bullying that they themselves are the cause. After all we are participating in a world which has all sorts of violence and malevolent activity within it. Some is the unconscious product of ignorance but some is directly malicious.

 

To suggest to a victim of bullying that it is their fault would be like saying the same sort of thing to a disabled person. This is clearly ridiculous and is based on a debased version of karma and what it is all about. It is better to think that the 'victim' is suffering from this activity for all of us, since we all share in the projection of samsara.

 

Violence has to be addressed by natural intelligence. Listen to your inner voice which will tell you whether to walk away - or to face it down. If you walk away, hold your energy and remind yourself that you are not defeated, it is not your fault and affirm the higher principle of continuing to generate good will to everyone (including your enemies).

Edited March 8, 2009 by apepch7

[Ya Mu]

What would a Taoist do if someone threatens her or him with violence?

 

Project Calmness.

 

 

I agree with Mak_Tin_Si here for certain.

 

A time of grief for a parent would certainly not be the moment to tell them (!), but all things happen as they should in my opinion. This is the concept of fate that is held not just in Taoism but in many other streams of human wisdom also. There are no mistakes in what happens to us.

 

I would go far further than Mak_Tin_Si actually -- he says that it it 'can be a good thing', but I say that all such events are things we deliberately subject ourselves to, in order to learn specific things. Therefore in that sense they are all good things. There is no difference between the necessary and the good, if looking at things from the divine point of view, which is the best one for a spiritual cultivator.

 

I know that karen has said this about illness -- it is a blessing and an opportunity, and we choose it (at a level upon which we are not at that moment conscious), because we need it.

 

I'd say it applies to affliction of other kinds too. I would love to know whether Mak_Tin_Si would agree that we deliberately choose as human beings to undergo things in order to learn. The circumstances of our lives are laid down by fate, what I call Moira, but this fate is planned with our full nonphysical co-operation. As Mak_Tin_Si implies, ("find the source and you will know why"), when we are in touch with the parts of ourselves that do flow with fate and with these events, we will see their wisdom.

 

It is not a truth that everyone is always ready to hear, but someone in spiritual training should IMO be ready to face the idea that their entire life circumstance is wholly just, and self-chosen in a spiritual sense. This of course gives you both responsibility and also freedom.

 

I know this doctrine splits the 'bums though. I remember Trunk for example saying that he certainly did not believe it.

 

Rawn Clark's comments about what Bardon calls 'Divine Providence' are relevant:

 

It is common for us to wonder how the unpleasant aspects and events of life can exist in a universe permeated by a Benevolent deity... from the eternal perspective of the Unity, benevolence is an undercurrent in All events, even the most unpleasant ones.

 

Suffering exists for a reason. It teaches us lessons that we have not been able to otherwise learn through more pleasant means. So at the core of each unpleasant situation lies the divine benevolence that knows this is the way in which we must learn -- it is the root lesson that holds the benevolence, the manifestation of events is itself secondary. The only way sometimes, to perceive the divine benevolence behind unsavory events is to broaden one's perspective to include lifetimes instead of single moments.

 

This is 'the real world', for all human beings, both in the city with the millions and alone on the mountain.

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

 

I have SEEN that we do have a Destiny. We each choose what we want to learn before we incarnate. But after a few weeks/months/couple of years we develop amnesia with our minds taking over to be the master and the real you becoming the slave. This is due to the society we live in; our parents and peers teach us that the mind is what we need to train, not the intuitive real immortal you. The lower level self has no idea that we wish to learn different things. SO the Higher Level self steps in and creates situations for us to learn what we need. Sometimes these situations are physically traumatic. I know in my own life this has happened several times. I now try to LISTEN so that the lower level self is now the slave and the Higher Level Self is the master. If one practices true Listening, then there is USUALLY (not exclusively) no need to create the extreme physical situations in order to learn.

So I agree with you but would rather substitute the term Destiny than the word fate. But simply semantics difference.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

karma exsist all the time, if you choose to not accept yourself is what brings you the problem, let me quote something for LaoZi's scripture "fortune and disasters have no doors to come, only human welcome it to come" do you get what LaoZi is saying ?

 

While I am sure it is true that we learn lessons from suffering, I think it would not be helpful to suggest to a victim of bullying that they themselves are the cause. After all we are participating in a world which has all sorts of violence and malevolent activity within it. Some is the unconscious product of ignorance but some is directly malicious.

 

To suggest to a victim of bullying that it is their fault would be like saying the same sort of thing to a disabled person. This is clearly ridiculous and is based on a debased version of karma and what it is all about. It is better to think that the 'victim' is suffering from this activity for all of us, since we all share in the projection of samsara.

 

Violence has to be addressed by natural intelligence. Listen to your inner voice which will tell you whether to walk away - or to face it down. If you walk away, hold your energy and remind yourself that you are not defeated, it is not your fault and affirm the higher principle of continuing to generate good will to everyone (including your enemies).

[Apech]

karma exsist all the time, if you choose to not accept yourself is what brings you the problem, let me quote something for LaoZi's scripture "fortune and disasters have no doors to come, only human welcome it to come" do you get what LaoZi is saying ?

 

 

I understand completely what you (and LaoZi) are saying and I am not saying karma does not exist. I am saying it does exist. But I am talking about the best way to deal with violence. I think you need to think about the advice you are giving.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

so when people have problems and do not realize the "root cause" what happen later on is that they will have it over and over, on and off and on again in their life. In Taoism this is called "sinking loop". you keep having the same problems over and over in different forms.. but you never know why.. that is the most painful thing in life.. but if you gain the wisdom behind, you will know why and that problem never happen again!

 

I understand completely what you (and LaoZi) are saying and I am not saying karma does not exist. I am saying it does exist. But I am talking about the best way to deal with violence. I think you need to think about the advice you are giving.

[Apech]

so when people have problems and do not realize the "root cause" what happen later on is that they will have it over and over, on and off and on again in their life. In Taoism this is called "sinking loop". you keep having the same problems over and over in different forms.. but you never know why.. that is the most painful thing in life.. but if you gain the wisdom behind, you will know why and that problem never happen again!

 

Yes, of course, but I was talking about an actual situation in which someone might be experiencing violence, for instance bullying. In this circumstance the victim is no more to blame than the perpetrator. The time for introspection is later when you have the time and energy to think about why things might be happening to you. You need to act from will and decide to either avoid, defuse or repel the aggression in a way that does not perpetuate the karmic chain.

 

What I am saying is that your answer is too theoretical and would not help.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

The answer is to "What would a Taoist do if someone threatens her or him with violence?"

 

not to any victims.

 

of course I will not say all these when someone got bruises all ove rthe face and come to me.. but who will be such a victim and still go on the forum to chat? I think they rather go find a friend..

 

 

 

Yes, of course, but I was talking about an actual situation in which someone might be experiencing violence, for instance bullying. In this circumstance the victim is no more to blame than the perpetrator. The time for introspection is later when you have the time and energy to think about why things might be happening to you. You need to act from will and decide to either avoid, defuse or repel the aggression in a way that does not perpetuate the karmic chain.

 

What I am saying is that your answer is too theoretical and would not help.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[YMWong]

so when people have problems and do not realize the "root cause" what happen later on is that they will have it over and over, on and off and on again in their life. In Taoism this is called "sinking loop". you keep having the same problems over and over in different forms.. but you never know why.. that is the most painful thing in life.. but if you gain the wisdom behind, you will know why and that problem never happen again!

 

How wonderfully this applies to your presence on TTB, being scolded once for your behaviour then leaving and later coming back with the same behaviour ... and the same problem

 

As you said, that is the most painful thing in life ...

 

YM

[NeutralWire]

Mak_Tin_Si --

 

If you said that why nature is doing this to you and it's unfair.. you are just whinning and complaining because you do not know the "root cause". once you found out, you know you deserve what you get today.

 

Almost exactly the words of Franz Bardon:

 

A true magician accepts life the way it is presented to him; he enjoys the good and he learns from the evil and he is never despondent... Therefore it would be fundamentally wrong to indulge in the past and regret every unpleasantness that fate has placed in your path. Only weaklings constantly complain and expect pity.

 

... mind you, that's an advanced thing for someone to comprehend completely, especially if they are used to thinking about it another way. I believe only those who are philosophically advanced are really ready to absorb this idea, or see it in action.

 

apepch7 --

 

I think it would not be helpful to suggest to a victim of bullying that they themselves are the cause...

To suggest to a victim of bullying that it is their fault would be like saying the same sort of thing to a disabled person.

 

I totally agree (and said) that one should be careful who one says things like this to, but what you say here is not the point I was making personally.

 

I didn't say it is a question of 'fault' -- the perception of fault is the problem, the solution (as I was trying to make clear) is to see that there is nothing wrong and hence no 'fault'. So it is not a question of blaming someone for their troubles.

 

And even saying 'they themselves are the cause' is not quite what I meant. What I mean is that underneath all these events is a necessity which is truly Right and with which the higher spiritual self, that I call the daimon is fully co-operating (as Ya Mu said very well). But for many people that is not 'they themselves' but something wholly other from themselves. For a spiritual seeker though it is different IMO.

 

Ya Mu --

 

Your point of view also agrees completely with mine. I also agree that direct seeing is necessary, but unlike you perhaps, I am not sure that everyone should try to see this way. I think it is something that comes when people are ready. On this site it is a fair thing to say it, but society in general is not completely enlightened and can't be asked to be so. Or do you think different?

 

I have SEEN that we do have a Destiny... So I agree with you but would rather substitute the term Destiny than the word fate. But simply semantics difference.

 

Not even semantics, just a question of different names for the same thing. As I say I call it Moira which is the Greek word for fate, but also, handily, the name of the Greek Goddess of fate.

 

NW

[Mak_Tin_Si]

If you do not get the reason why I did this behind, then too bad. (there is a hidden message behind what I do if you get the taoism wisdom)

 

"Tao different, no need to talk" - as chinese saying.

 

How wonderfully this applies to your presence on TTB, being scolded once for your behaviour then leaving and later coming back with the same behaviour ... and the same problem

 

As you said, that is the most painful thing in life ...

 

YM

 

 

fate is fate, karma - cause and effect, why blame this on some godness or spiritual stuff or holly things? It is another way of doing ---- this?

 

you killed something "no, it's not me, it's the knife's fault"

 

Mak Tin Si

[YMWong]

If you do not get the reason why I did this behind, then too bad.

 

 

But if it doesn't work out don't worry, you have a career as a comedian

 

YM

[Apech]

Hello all,

 

Since we seem to be discussing karma I would like to say this, which reinforces what I was trying to say before. The way in which I understand that karma works is that each action creates a seed. This is the seed for future karma. That seed does not always ripen immediately, which is why you see people do quite bad things and yet seem to get away free. The seed ripens when the right circumstances exist for it to do so. This might be several lifetimes down the line. Things happen then and you wonder why you are having a rough time or bad luck. This might be, for instance, that you experience a lot of violence in your life - which you do not look for.

 

In these circumstances I quite agree that you should take the position that life is a lesson and that you have to take responsibility. This is the only way to grow and develop as a being - and avoids the passive victim position of 'why is this happening to me!' - self pity. BUT the causal act may be so far removed temporarily that you as a person have no real active ownership in the ordinary sense.

 

Steadfastly affirm the good - is a phrase that comes to mind.

 

I think I am going round in circles anyway so I'll shut up now.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

The cat above is now full of wisdom.