Is this a Paradox which all spiritual seekers come to ?

[ThisLife]

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Watching the fascinating interplay on this forum between an extraordinary range of personalities and our various interests, I sometimes find myself wondering about the other side of this coin,... what it is that we all share ? What commonality brings us each here and keeps us coming back for more ?

 

The tentative answer that pops up in my mind is that we are all bitten by the compulsion to seek for spiritual answers in order to ease our particular brand of suffering. If we were contented with our life and happy with what we seem to be at this moment,... then we simply wouldn't be here. The returns for the phenomenal amount of time and effort we spend in practice and self-discipline, would be far more easily attained by the uncomplicated enjoyment of whatever our moment-to-moment existence brought us.

 

Now I know that spiritual seeking, (at least amongst seekers themselves), certainly has the kudos as the undisputed champion of 'worthwhile human activities'. But, I find myself questioning whether there is really any more to spiritual seeking than an attempt to escape from suffering ? Are prayers like the one we used to chant somewhere within all the pujas when I was Buddhist, "May I become a Buddha for the benefit of all",....are these perhaps not just attempts to convince ourself that we are altruistic dharma warriors battling the powers of delusion for the sake of all living beings ? Spiritual Batmen and Robins,... whereas, in reality we are merely malcontents frustrated by living within the limitations of whatever form our life has put us, (a discontent fueled by simultaneous dreams of being free forever of EVERY limitation) ?

 

So, can I ask for possible clarifying thoughts from Tao Bums here,... "Is this spiritual seeking that we are all bitten with, simply driven by the self-centered desire to escape from our own personal suffering ? Or is there more to it than this ?"

 

 

ThisLife

 

 

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[Sloppy Zhang]

This life, I've thought the same things

 

Here are the answers I've come to for your questions:

 

."Is this spiritual seeking that we are all bitten with, simply driven by the self-centered desire to escape from our own personal suffering ?

 

Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

 

Or is there more to it than this ?"

ThisLife

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Maybe, then again, maybe not.

 

The fact of the matter is, I really couldn't live in just the "day to day pleasures" that everyone else I see seems to live (I'm in college right now, so I see people enjoying the moment to moment thing quite often). I've tried the moment to moment thing, tried to just "forget everything" and just throw myself whole heartedly into just living and just accepting things as they appeared at face value. It didn't really work. It seemed to simple, I see people living along without a care in the world. Sure they worry about an an annoying test, where the beer will come from in the next party, and who they're going to have sex with this weekend.... but that's not me.

 

So, I do what I do because that's who I am. Or maybe I do what I do because there's nothing else I can do.

 

But whatever the reason, in the end, I still do what I do.

[三江源]

Yeh, I think it's fun. Qi Gong is fun, meditation is fun. Chewing the fat with intelligent articulate people here is fun.

 

I also like comedy fillums, cats, children,tulips, and nice clothes.

[Apech]

I thought we came here because we are interested in meditation, qi gong, cultivation or whatever and like to discuss it with each other.

 

Isn't it as simple as that?

 

P.S. there are some who just like to bicker and argue as well (unfortunately).

[NeutralWire]

cat --

 

Yeh, I think it's fun. Qi Gong is fun, meditation is fun. Chewing the fat with intelligent articulate people here is fun.

 

I agree.

 

The 'cessation of suffering' angle is one I never shared. I really started my practice to find new and interesting things, and I did! I also think that I and the people I admire really have helped others by their practice as well as themselves.

 

I find 'cessation of suffering' a very limited paradigm, not one I relate to at all. NW

[Mal]

"Is this spiritual seeking that we are all bitten with, simply driven by the self-centered desire to escape from our own personal suffering ? Or is there more to it than this ?"

 

I always feel rather lucky as my life is pretty close to heaven on earth. My "suffering" is so trivial compared to the majority of others on this planet. It would be horrible to really be suffering and get told. "It will pass, try not to attach to it." Some of the stuff that happens to people is abhorrent. I just like being able to discuss magic, energy, sex and spiritual stuff without people thinking I'm a fruit bat that should be in a mental institution

 

The returns for the phenomenal amount of time and effort we spend in practice and self-discipline is the uncomplicated enjoyment of whatever our moment-to-moment existence brings us

[forestofsouls]

For me, it definitely started selfish. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha everywhere I looked. The journey produces compassion, though. As you understand youself, you begin to understand others, and that allows for deeper sympathy and compassion. So it tends to change between more selfish and more altruistic motives. Underneath it all, however, there is a definite pull in a certain direction whether I want to go at this point or not. Once they've seen the bright lights of Paris...

 

 

Buddhist terms seem very simple, and in fact limited, but their meaning grows with practice and experience. In once sense, I am simply learning the same things over and over: anicca, anatta, dukkha, advaita. On another, it is not the same at all.

 

The fact you don't resonate with this would probably explain why you're drawn to the path of the magician. I see the magician as more of a positive approach-- drawn by wonder, curiousity, etc.

 

Dion Fortune wrote something along the lines that the path of the magician covers all the sefira on the tree of life, where the path of the mystic goes straight up the central channel. The magician is more interested in the flora and fauna, developing each stage, etc. whereas the mystic has their eyes on God. The mystic tends to get there quicker, but has not yet developed all the latent abilities the magician has. There might be something to this.

 

I find 'cessation of suffering' a very limited paradigm, not one I relate to at all. NW

[NeutralWire]

forestofsouls --

 

I certainly relate to the idea of a search for virtue, as a Stoic I believe it is the same as Good in human terms. This has quite a Buddhist ring in some senses. But my real point is that I draw (as we all can) from a very wide range of sources, both of others and from my own range of experience. 'Cessation of suffering' simply fails to convey, for me, what life is about; I don't feel it really conveys the value of the experiences I have, spiritual or otherwise. For those it works for, good, but not for me.

 

I think Mal:

 

The returns for the phenomenal amount of time and effort we spend in practice and self-discipline is the uncomplicated enjoyment of whatever our moment-to-moment existence brings us

 

... points up something important too. NW

[ThisLife]

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Thank you all very much for a really wonderful range of replies. Reading through each of them separately, then again to get a feeling for how, despite their obvious differences, their individual flavours all work together to make the broth what it is,.... somehow was more helpful to me than simply hearing one perfectly worded answer.

 

The wide diversity of the replies reminded me of something I often lose sight of. Because I spend so much time thinking about questions like this on my own, and since a person generally tends to follow only one line of beliefs, it's very easy to fall into the trap of imagining that the answer to any question, (such as the one I raised here), is also one-tracked. Seeing such a wide range of views on the same stimulus from people with whom I share quite an overlap in interests, helps very much to 'loosen' me up.

 

My Western and somewhat academic upbringing has got me so accustomed to the idea of approaching everything as a struggle both to comprehend and to attain,... that I tend to approach spiritual questions the same way. The sincerity and diversity of all your replies marrying together invites me to consider that perhaps spiritual searches are best entered into by 'letting go' of excess baggage, rather than in trying to find the perfect rucksack.

 

Thank you all,

 

 

ThisLife

 

 

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[Wayfarer64]

I always feel rather lucky as my life is pretty close to heaven on earth. My "suffering" is so trivial compared to the majority of others on this planet. It would be horrible to really be suffering and get told. "It will pass, try not to attach to it." Some of the stuff that happens to people is abhorrent. I just like being able to discuss magic, energy, sex and spiritual stuff without people thinking I'm a fruit bat that should be in a mental institution

 

The returns for the phenomenal amount of time and effort we spend in practice and self-discipline is the uncomplicated enjoyment of whatever our moment-to-moment existence brings us

 

I have eaten fruit bat on the island of Java...It was delightful; a sort of pre-mangoed chicken!

& yes, earthly delights can be sweetened through the work of self discipline...

 

I agree that Self discipline can be improved through letting go of those pleasures too... It is like all of life ---inhale exhale... change creates the new for us to contemplate as usual...

[doc benway]

Great post ThisLife -

The brain seems to have this tendency to always look to become something that it is not.

It's a very useful drive, particularly in terms of innovation and survival.

It can also lead to anxiety, dissatisfaction, desire, attachment, and all the rest of it.

I agree with you that, to a large degree, the spiritual search is just a reflection of that drive to "become" rather than just be.

The irony is that the search seems to be the only thing standing in the way of the answer.

[Spectrum]

whereas, in reality we are merely malcontents frustrated by living within the limitations of whatever form our life has put us, (a discontent fueled by simultaneous dreams of being free forever of EVERY limitation) ?

 

There are certain moments in which we all are free from every limitation. Learning who what when where and why of these windows is ...

[seadog]

In the small community I live in, no one I know talks about the subjects that are raised and discussed here.

I think it is very fortunate that with a click of a few buttons,I can engage in dialouge with people from all over the world who share what they have learned.

[ThisLife]

In the small community I live in, no one I know talks about the subjects that are raised and discussed here.

I think it is very fortunate that with a click of a few buttons,I can engage in dialogue with people from all over the world who share what they have learned.

 

 

Your reply strikes me as a flawlessly precise and concise rendering of a key factor to understanding the great benefits of this forum, and why we all keep hanging around here. Thank you for reminding me of this fundamental truth. My mind being structured the way it is, it just wouldn't have thought along those lines on its own without being offered an insight by someone like yourself, whose mind is structured to think down different pathways.

 

 

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[seadog]

Your reply strikes me as a flawlessly precise and concise rendering of a key factor to understanding the great benefits of this forum, and why we all keep hanging around here. Thank you for reminding me of this fundamental truth. My mind being structured the way it is, it just wouldn't have thought along those lines on its own without being offered an insight by someone like yourself, whose mind is structured to think down different pathways.

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Yeah thats the joy of it.

"Minds that are structured to think down different pathways."

[ThisLife]

There are certain moments in which we all are free from every limitation. Learning the who, what, when ,where and why of these windows is ...

 

 

Another perfectly expressed key truth. I know what you're saying is true, but only through the workings of logic. All these spiritual paths which exist world-wide, would not exist if there was no actual experience to back them up.

 

One of my deepest regrets is that I have so far never myself experienced any of these "certain moments", as you call them,... despite being utterly convinced for the greatest part of my life that these windows do occur. I have had some wonderful drug -induced experiences, (one of which being so strong and clear that it may well have been a glimpse through),... but drugs are unfortunately an unreliable friend that I just don't wish to use any more. They're more like a dream than reality, and only diminish one's faculties for continuing the search in the 'straight realm'.

 

The sadness I find is that living the straight life, there's just no more 'highs'. Just a lot of turning over tentative chains of logic in an attempt to understand this existence we are all part of. Being locked into 'mental detective work' has all the life thrillls of an 80 year old jigsaw puzzle addict in an old folks' home. I long for at least a glimpse through one of those windows that so many others have undoubtedly seen through. Just some encouragement to keep one picking up the next piece.

 

 

ThisLife

 

 

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[ThisLife]

Great post ThisLife -

The brain seems to have this tendency to always look to become something that it is not.

It's a very useful drive, particularly in terms of innovation and survival.

It can also lead to anxiety, dissatisfaction, desire, attachment, and all the rest of it.

I agree with you that, to a large degree, the spiritual search is just a reflection of that drive to "become" rather than just be.

The irony is that the search seems to be the only thing standing in the way of the answer.

 

 

I found the points you raise very thought-provoking. Particularly your ending statement that "the irony is that the search seems to be the only thing standing in the way of the answer".

 

I think you've homed in onto a point of logic which is almost on the outermost boundary separating this realm of rational, dualistic thought,... from the Holy Grail of Enlightenment we all seek on the other side. However, unlike the usual boundaries we are familiar with in the mundane world,... I don't believe that these two realms actually touch. I think they are more like the boundary between life and death. You're in either one place or the other. (And by that, I mean the 'essence' of what we truly are. Clearly the body mechanisms of sages after Enlightenment continue to live and function no differently than those of the rest of us foot soldiers and seekers after spiritual fortune).

 

I came across a slightly different take from yours on this same topic. Perhaps it may stimulate something in your own searching :

 

"Enlightenment is not the presence of the understanding that there is no one: it is the complete removal of that which could have this understanding. We talk about enlightenment as if something happens. The ultimate understanding is that nothing happened. Everything is as it always has been: part of an incredible tapestry of Presence."

 

 

ThisLife

 

 

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[Wayfarer64]

I found the points you raise very thought-provoking. Particularly your ending statement that "the irony is that the search seems to be the only thing standing in the way of the answer".

 

I think you've homed in onto a point of logic which is almost on the outermost boundary separating this realm of rational, dualistic thought,... from the Holy Grail of Enlightenment we all seek on the other side. However, unlike the usual boundaries we are familiar with in the mundane world,... I don't believe that these two realms actually touch. I think they are more like the boundary between life and death. You're in either one place or the other. (And by that, I mean the 'essence' of what we truly are. Clearly the body mechanisms of sages after Enlightenment continue to live and function no differently than those of the rest of us foot soldiers and seekers after spiritual fortune).

 

I came across a slightly different take from yours on this same topic. Perhaps it may stimulate something in your own searching :

 

"Enlightenment is not the presence of the understanding that there is no one: it is the complete removal of that which could have this understanding. We talk about enlightenment as if something happens. The ultimate understanding is that nothing happened. Everything is as it always has been: part of an incredible tapestry of Presence."

ThisLife

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I guess we do get in our own way while on our way... It seems that when I let go of the efforts and just ease on down the road -as it were- the harmonized being of my NOT trying becomes the bliss of harmonious being -

 

it does not often last

 

as I keep believing there is more to know - but that may be the biggest fallacy of all - the simple state of harmony may be the bliss I seek after all...

 

so I agree that the ceasing of effort to be harmonious may be the key to harmonious being...