struggling in push hands

[wenwu]

so i was practicing push hands last night...........

 

i am not great at push hands at all but i find that a lot of the guys that i was pushing with, when i started to get the better of them in a lock or some such they would just lock upso tight that i couldn't move them, now to me that seems just plain wrong, when i am doing push hands and some one gets my in a lock (like an arm bar or something akin to an ikyo in aikido lets say) i use/try to use my shen fa and softness to escape and if i can't then i have made a mistake and i let them have the lock. but i never tense up and struggle out of it as much as this would probably get me out of the situation it seems that it is not what the aim is and is falling back on an ego driven need to win at all costs, even if that cost is lack of advancement in training

 

does anyone have any thoughts on this

[Warninji]

Unconditional love is an essential nutrient, but one that can only be found from within. People don't know how to give themselves the respect and unconditional love they need, so they seek if from others. They hope to get unconditional love from others by appearing strong and smart and clever, and they fear looking weak or foolish to others because they think they'll lose unconditional love and respect. They cover up as best they can because they are needy.

 

Your approach is correct. You are respecting yourself. If you let them see the strength in your weakness, they will learn from you.

[frock]

Yeah, and remember that they're just acting on different motivations. Your way only makes you better at growing than their way does. So you don't have to feel superior unless you want to. I probably would try not to, but I'm easily embarrassed.

 

"Your approach is correct. You are respecting yourself. If you let them see the strength in your weakness, they will learn from you."

 

His way is no more correct than any other way. There has to be a goal for something to be correct. Their way is more correct for winning. His way is better for growing.

Edited March 10, 2009 by frock

[Spectrum]

thoughts off the top of my head remember when they lock up one part of their body they are creating an opening in another. So for example if you relax and "let go" of the lock your focusing on and reconsider the general flow of their motion you will continue to control the center of the circle. Often times if you feel where your hips can adjust to you can still guide them off their center because they are stiffening up and loosing their "flow"... your so right about yeilding out of locks and regrounding yourself to continue the flow. The thing about push hands is your not trying to control your opponent, rather when someone touches you, they are now a part of you, so you function as a mediator between them and the empti space they need to supposedly "control" you.

 

Sometimes in the heat of the moment we forget we can talk as well...so changing to verbalizing your problem solving method might help as well, such as when they lock up, say softly so they can hear...lets see, i'm not wanting to get stiff and stuggle with y ou here, i'm feeling for a direction to yeild, so I'll try this... while your doing soemthing... when they struggle it makes them look stupid, it's not good practice, success is easy when it happens its the right answer for the right problem. When it becomes one upman ship and ego it's tough and sweaty and gritty and hard... bad practice methods lead to injury. good practice is not about winning its about learning. a good player will help his partner succeed, not work against succees. The more your partner succeeds the better you will get.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As my 13 yrs of Tung Ying Kit's style Yang's Taichi experience.. I can share something with you.

 

Taichi push hands takes time to learn, and when you get good at it, you shall be always rooted at the bottom and go with the flow from the hip and up. Main focus is the "hip" part that can "swallow" and "shift" to intake forces, you should be felt like a hard spring that people cannot push down.

 

of course, training methods in the basic are taught for this ability.

[Ryan T.]

but i never tense up and struggle out of it as much as this would probably get me out of the situation it seems that it is not what the aim is and is falling back on an ego driven need to win at all costs, even if that cost is lack of advancement in training

 

does anyone have any thoughts on this

 

T.T. Liang always said "Invest in loss", and "Small loss, small gain; big loss, big gain".

 

I an very grateful to anyone who "boxes" me into a position that leaves me with no other option. This is how I learn my "weaknesses" and hopefully, if I am analytical enough, I will learn how to not get into those "boxes" in the future.

 

TTC #33:

 

"Knowing others is intelligence;

knowing yourself is true wisdom.

Mastering others is strength;

mastering yourself is true power."

 

And I agree with what MTS stated. I would also consult with your teacher about your experiences. And ultimately if this is the way these other people practice push hands you may want to find someone else to practice with; you will find it hard to develop if your partners do not have similar objectives as you.

[doc benway]

My experience in push hands is that it is about balance - what I mean primarily is yin/yang balance, not just balance with respect to stance and movement. There is a need for softness but also a need for hardness. The interplay between the two is taiji. You cannot achieve superior skill in push hands with softness alone - there is a role for fajin. Nevertheless, it is wrong to let the ego take over and try to win at all costs.

 

One of the most important concepts to learn in push hands is the classic - "invest in loss."

Another very nice little quote that I got out of an article in an old issue of Tai Chi magazine is that push hands should be a conversation, not a shouting match (I'm not sure that can be achieved in tournament competition but it can be the goal in the training environment).

 

Stick with it - it's a very long but rewarding road to travel.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Balance is good. It's all taught from the taichi theory included with the taichi system already.

 

Practically speaking, try to think of "place heavy on the right and attack from left", tricking is involved with forces to get people off balance. While tricking, you must not loose your own balance neither. That is done by using your HIP as the center wheel. (some methods of trianings inolved)

[gendao]

does anyone have any thoughts on this

Very good question, I'm actually going to shoot my next vid on this...(not that I've personally found the answer yet).

 

And always easier said than done, but as it says in my sig:

 

"Be still like a mountain and flow like a great river." - Laozi

[mYTHmAKER]

so i was practicing push hands last night...........

 

i am not great at push hands at all but i find that a lot of the guys that i was pushing with, when i started to get the better of them in a lock or some such they would just lock upso tight that i couldn't move them, now to me that seems just plain wrong, when i am doing push hands and some one gets my in a lock (like an arm bar or something akin to an ikyo in aikido lets say) i use/try to use my shen fa and softness to escape and if i can't then i have made a mistake and i let them have the lock. but i never tense up and struggle out of it as much as this would probably get me out of the situation it seems that it is not what the aim is and is falling back on an ego driven need to win at all costs, even if that cost is lack of advancement in training

 

does anyone have any thoughts on this

 

Keep doing what you are doing.

If you struggle it becomes a fight and the stronger person wins.

[Martial Development]

In martial arts, the opponent is never wrong. The practice partner is rarely wrong.

 

Sometimes the student is wrong. But if this person is not your student, then don't bother about that.

 

If this person can stop your technique by simply tensing up, then your technique is flawed. Concentrate on fixing it.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

focus on some basic practise in taichi.

 

In Yang's style taichi, I recommend you do a training on the 12 series spring kick (northern shaolin) for a boost for your base. It is a good way to do it for a short term boosting, you will scare and surprise all your other friends and training pals.

 

Before that, you must master the 6 basic leg stretch and 5 major stance of course to build up that chi in your lower body.

[pigeontoes]

Relax, stick with ur partners hands/arms. Relax, stick with ur partners hand/arms. The flow is the connection that is maintained.

 

Stay within ur personal space, do not over reach, stay calm & relaxed. Then start to have fun.

[wenwu]

thanks for all the replies

 

will keep with it

 

plan to chat to my teacher this friday

 

i will let you know what happens

[doc benway]

Another thing about push hands ...

All partners are different . As you work with people over time there will be those that challenge your ego with theirs. There will be others who are much more collaborative or submissive than competitive. If you're lucky, you'll get to train with a variety of personalities and maybe even find a partner that is right on the same wavelength as you - that's really a blessing. I've learned a lot about my training partners and myself through pushing.

One more thing... footwork is the key!

Enjoy

[goldisheavy]

Ok, I can't help but to toss my opinion into the pile.

 

Here's a problem with Tai Chi. It tends to philosophically emasculate Li too much, which is false.

 

What is the problem with people who rely too much on Li? They are numb, which is to say they are not sensitive to subtleties and nuances. And they don't understand the connection between Li and Yi, and so they use Yi in a crude, unrefined, and rigidly structured manner.

 

How does a GOOD internal martial artist fix this? A GOOD one will balance this out. But taking all emphasis away from Li and putting the entire emphasis on Yi is simply a yet another imbalance. The truth is that for any people conscious of something that could be called "Li", Li has some truth to it, and it shouldn't be ignored. Li is not bad, or stupid, or unholy. Li is a manifestation of Yi as much as is Chi! Everything is manifested by Yi and not just Chi! So Li has truth behind it. The problem with an ignorant guy is not that he believes Li is true while Li is really false, but that he doesn't realize there are OTHER truths that complete the truth of Li. So the truth of the ignorant guy is only wrong insofar the ignorant guy thinks his truth is complete. Li is not a lie. Li is real and effective and is part of Dao.

 

The problem with many internal martial artists is that they overemphasize Yi-Chi-Jing connection to the point of utterly ignoring and even deprecating Li. Li is scoffed at and put down. That's wrong.

 

This is why when one of these ignorant extremist internalists shows up they can easily get their ass whopped by a boxer or even a non-fighter body builder.

 

An internal martial artist should hold Yi as the most important aspect, and should balance the incorrect worshiping of Li with a healthy respect for Li, and balance seeing Li as the complete picture with seeing it as part of the picture. Sensitivity of perceptions and creative openness of mind are then restored to their rightful places instead of creating a huge imbalance and a huge delusion by thinking that Li is irrelevant and that Yi-Chi-Jing is supreme.

 

So basically this guy just shows how stupid you are by tensing up. If some guy practices tensing up for 10 years and standing firm upon the ground, guess what? Maybe even the best Tai Chi master in the world couldn't move that guy at all! Why not? Because everything can be taken up as a mastery. Li doesn't have to stay at a mundane gross level. Li can be elevated and spiritualized (which is to say, liberated from structures, preconceptions about it) to the point of being miraculous.

 

This is why honesty is so important and why dogma, including spiritual and physicalist dogmas, dogma of any kind, is blinding.

 

The terms as I understand them: Li = physical strength, Yi = intent, Chi = subtle energy that's more private, and Jing = subtle energy that's been converted into a grosser form of energy that's more public.

Edited March 11, 2009 by goldisheavy

[dwai]

Li is not bad, or stupid, or unholy. Li is a manifestation of Yi as much as is Chi! Everything is manifested by Yi and not just Chi!

 

I think the point is that Yi is used as a prop to drive Chi (which is necessary for Chi sensitivity and controlling flow of Chi). Yi is a tool and has to be dropped after sufficient Chi sensitivity and Chi quantity/quality is built up.

 

I think Physical strength is considered secondary to Chi because of the quantum nature of Chi/Jing (sudden dramatic jumps, as opposed to working within a more "normal" range that is possible with Physical strength).

[goldisheavy]

I think the point is that Yi is used as a prop to drive Chi (which is necessary for Chi sensitivity and controlling flow of Chi). Yi is a tool and has to be dropped after sufficient Chi sensitivity and Chi quantity/quality is built up.

 

I think Physical strength is considered secondary to Chi because of the quantum nature of Chi/Jing (sudden dramatic jumps, as opposed to working within a more "normal" range that is possible with Physical strength).

 

Yi cannot be dropped, pretty much by definition. Think about it. If you think yi can be dropped, please start a new thread about it, and let's discuss it. You'll need to explain how to drop it. How do you intend to drop your intent? Yes, I sure would love to see you explain that one.

 

---

 

To the original poster:

 

If someone tenses up, they produce no movement and yet they are putting a strain on themselves. In this case, you may want to remember that you are not in a hurry to win anything. You can "fight" forever, because Tai Chi never stops or starts. So, since you don't have a time limit by which you must subdue the guy, not in Tai Chi anyway, you have some options there.

 

You can let the guy stand there tense and waste his energy while you relax. You don't need to subdue the guy by a certain time limit. You're not in a hurry. You can wait for 1 billion years. No problem.

 

You can create scary appearances around the guy to make him tense even more! Aggravate his psyche so he wastes even more energy tensing. Frustrate him. Play with him. Spend absolute minimum energy doing this. Take your time. Take 100 billion years to do this if necessary. Don't think you need to go home for dinner. You don't. You can stand there for eternity. Or not. Either way, all options are open and there is no compulsion on you. If your mind is compelled, that's a weakness that can be exploited by he who knows what's compelling you.

 

You can punch the tense body with annoying pressure point punches. Punch the arm with your fingers. Of course this may not be "standard" tai chi, but in tai chi there are no rules anyway. The forms are to introduce wisdom and not so that you become chained by them! If the form instead of releasing you chains you, that's wrong. The form is there to release one's inhibitions of rigidity and not so that it imposes its own new fancy and more subtle rigidity on you. You are a crazy lunatic who cannot be predicted. You are Dao. You have nothing to gain and nothing to lose. Just play.

 

Try this next time.

Edited March 12, 2009 by goldisheavy

[adam mizner]

Well said

 

metta

adam

 

In martial arts, the opponent is never wrong. The practice partner is rarely wrong.

 

Sometimes the student is wrong. But if this person is not your student, then don't bother about that.

 

If this person can stop your technique by simply tensing up, then your technique is flawed. Concentrate on fixing it.