Lao Tzu's birthday inconsistancy

[Taoist81]

Does anyone else have any knowledge on the traditional date of the Old Boy's birthday celebration? Without going into Mak's title of "Chief Master of Taoism for governing Taoism in this world" ( http://www.taoismcanada.com/eabouttinsi.html ) there seem to be some inconsistancy's in when this celebration is in China.

 

For example, this temple is starting the celebration on the 14th: http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/161189.htm

 

While the Chinese government set up the Lao Tzu research institute on the 11th in "honor of his birthday": http://en.chinagate.cn/development/special...nt_17426090.htm

 

Is there one traditional date or is this a difference of lineages/traditions?

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Does anyone else have any knowledge on the traditional date of the Old Boy's birthday celebration? Without going into Mak's title of "Chief Master of Taoism for governing Taoism in this world" ( http://www.taoismcanada.com/eabouttinsi.html ) there seem to be some inconsistancy's in when this celebration is in China.

 

For example, this temple is starting the celebration on the 14th: http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/161189.htm

 

While the Chinese government set up the Lao Tzu research institute on the 11th in "honor of his birthday": http://en.chinagate.cn/development/special...nt_17426090.htm

 

Is there one traditional date or is this a difference of lineages/traditions?

The date changes from year to year, due to the fact that the chinese go by a lunar-solar calandar originally..

 

I wanted to say something here about Mak, but healers don't do damage, they help people.

Edited March 12, 2009 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Taoist81]

The date changes from year to year, due to the fact that the chinese go by a lunar-solar calandar originally..

 

I wanted to say something here about Mak, but healers don't do damage, they help people.

 

Oops! That is what happens when you pull info from sites without looking at the dates carefully. The lunar calendar is obvious, but at first it looked like the differences were in the same year. Thanks for pointing out the mistake....

Edited March 12, 2009 by Taoist81

[Mak_Tin_Si]

LaoZi bday is on the lunar calendar 2nd month 15th day all the time. Never changed. You can just go and buy a chinese calendar (old style) and find this date, they all marked it as LaoZi birthday, very very common.

 

maybe you mix up the calendar system...

[Guest paul walter]

The date changes from year to year, due to the fact that the chinese go by a lunar-solar calandar originally..

 

I wanted to say something here about Mak, but healers don't do damage, they help people.

 

 

 

perhaps others could speak for you in this regard: don't quite understand the fascination with money Mak has considering he's all the masters in Hong Kong tao movies i've ever wished were real. Perhaps he could fight real demons in a new Cirque du Soleil show and get a heap of cash? Don't want to sound cynical but....

[Mak_Tin_Si]

huh? what do you mean?

[goldisheavy]

Sorry to get off topic, but money is said to be just energy. I disagree with how some of these people use that "money=energy" concept, but it's not exactly completely illogical or incomprehensible. So, the disagreement with how some healers prefer to use money would need to be at least somewhat nuanced, I think, before it could be taken seriously.

 

I think it all depends on what level of healing one is performing and what is one's goal. If one is performing a mundane healing, and if one's goal is to simply persist in the world as is, without significantly changing its flavor, then charging money for healing makes perfect sense. Then healing is just like any other business, plain and simple. And as long as it's an honest business, I fail to see anything even slightly wrong with it.

 

However, there are some types of healing that are different and are exceptions to this. One is when you disseminate wisdom. This is said to be the highest form of healing. It is the healing of the mind or heart. It is a celestial healing and it does not follow ordinary mundane rules of healing due to its eminently transcendent nature. Second, there is a healing that's done to beautify the world. If you want the world to get more and more beautiful, it's not enough to exchange one thing for another tit for tat. You have to put in more "energy" than you take out. So you can provide healing for free. This creates the "pressure" on the world system to become altogether better (or you can think of it as creating a "goodness vacuum" that the world wants to fill). So in this sense, you're not healing some stranger, but you are healing your own world-body, so it makes no sense to charge yourself for something you are doing to beautify yourself anyway. So if you engage in these two forms of healing, charging money is a no no.

Edited March 12, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Pietro]

Does anyone else have any knowledge on the traditional date of the Old Boy's birthday celebration? Without going into Mak's title of "Chief Master of Taoism for governing Taoism in this world" ( http://www.taoismcanada.com/eabouttinsi.html ) there seem to be some inconsistancy's in when this celebration is in China.

 

For example, this temple is starting the celebration on the 14th: http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/161189.htm

 

While the Chinese government set up the Lao Tzu research institute on the 11th in "honor of his birthday": http://en.chinagate.cn/development/special...nt_17426090.htm

 

Is there one traditional date or is this a difference of lineages/traditions?

 

 

There is a book out there, it is called "laughing at the Tao". It was written by the personal advisor of the emperor (don't ask me which emperor), when the emperor showed interest to Taoism, and wanted to make his whole empire (China) Taoist. The book is a book about the inconsistencies in Taoism. It is all written in a ironic umoristic style. It is a series of chapters, each 3 pages long, with first a description, then "I laugh at this and say:..." and then the reasons why this is inconsistent. It is a great lecture, althoug eventually it becomes repetitive and boring. It is agreat lesson.

 

Actually I later learned that this kind of Dialectic debate was common in the middle ages, and the buddhist would practically always win. This because they were often trained in dialectic in their universities/schools. (Something similar to the christian dialectic discussions about the sex of angels and the how many angels on a pin point).

 

And about our book?

I kind of remember that the emperor had "all" the copies burned. There was an official answers from the big taoists at the time, some years later. And few copies of the book survived. I think the emperor's advisor was lucky enough to keep his head on the shoulders.

 

Not always a good idea to shatter emperor's dreams.

 

<preach>

Generally I think there is a great lesson in this book, as I think the essence of Taoism is totally untouched by those inconsitencies. And the same for all the great religions. ex: If Jesus was not born from a virgin, would this make it an acceptable behaviour to harm other human beings?

 

I think the sooner we give up those mythological ideas, the sooner we grow up as a society.

 

</preach>

[Sunya]

no one knows if Lao Zi even existed, who cares about 'his' birthday?

Edited March 12, 2009 by mikaelz

[YMWong]

no one knows if Lao Zi even existed, who cares about 'his' birthday?

 

Maybe you don't care but a few other million people do

 

For those who consider themselves 'descendants' of Laozi he certainly existed, just like all of your ancestors certainly did exist. But can you proove that all of them did ?

 

YM

[Guest paul walter]

Sorry to get off topic, but money is said to be just energy. I disagree with how some of these people use that "money=energy" concept, but it's not exactly completely illogical or incomprehensible. So, the disagreement with how some healers prefer to use money would need to be at least somewhat nuanced, I think, before it could be taken seriously.

 

I think it all depends on what level of healing one is performing and what is one's goal. If one is performing a mundane healing, and if one's goal is to simply persist in the world as is, without significantly changing its flavor, then charging money for healing makes perfect sense. Then healing is just like any other business, plain and simple. And as long as it's an honest business, I fail to see anything even slightly wrong with it.

 

However, there are some types of healing that are different and are exceptions to this. One is when you disseminate wisdom. This is said to be the highest form of healing. It is the healing of the mind or heart. It is a celestial healing and it does not follow ordinary mundane rules of healing due to its eminently transcendent nature. Second, there is a healing that's done to beautify the world. If you want the world to get more and more beautiful, it's not enough to exchange one thing for another tit for tat. You have to put in more "energy" than you take out. So you can provide healing for free. This creates the "pressure" on the world system to become altogether better (or you can think of it as creating a "goodness vacuum" that the world wants to fill). So in this sense, you're not healing some stranger, but you are healing your own world-body, so it makes no sense to charge yourself for something you are doing to beautify yourself anyway. So if you engage in these two forms of healing, charging money is a no no.

 

 

yes,i agree with this view and it is my understanding of healing. So why would anyone want to give low level healing if they are wise, have conscience and understand life? And i'm not saying they should martyr themselves for others in any way by continually giving their energy. And they can still accept money when it is given or even ask for what is available form the person being treated. The (karmic) implications of what you have written are not good for most 'healers' I know of (commercial ones)--surely it's a matter of conscience, not of whether someone has cash. Will stop this topic as it isn't to do with this thread. Thanks

[Sunya]

Maybe you don't care but a few other million people do

 

For those who consider themselves 'descendants' of Laozi he certainly existed, just like all of your ancestors certainly did exist. But can you proove that all of them did ?

 

YM

 

yes I can prove it quite easily. I exist physically, obviously my ancestors would have to have existed for me to exist at this moment. but none of my ancestors I'm claiming to be mythological sages

 

 

lol, many chinese think they descend from the Yellow Emperor, doesn't mean he ever existed.

 

i'm sure some people still think they descend from Zeus..

 

 

many scholars say that the author of dao de jing could've been multiple people, this is a bit different than Shakyamuni Buddha, who had direct disciples and started a monastic movement.. but even so, arguing about Shakyamuni's birthday is silly. and who cares anyway? calendars and time are just inventions of man. time doesn't exist.

Edited March 14, 2009 by mikaelz

[YMWong]

time doesn't exist.

 

Try to tell this to the IRS when it's time to pay taxes

 

YM

[TheWhiteRabbit]

ROFLMAO!!!!! hahahahaa!

[YMWong]

ROFLMAO!!!!! hahahahaa!

 

 

Kidding aside, what I was trying to convey in my message to Mikael is that the reasons/methods he uses to disproove Lao Zi's existence shall apply to proove his own ancestors

So if one thinks that Laozi may not have existed because some scholars says, or because there is no hard evidence etc. then they should try and proove that they had an ancestor some 2-3000 years ago with the same method: provide us with some hard evidence, documents or the likes, of his existence

 

YM

[Sunya]

 

Kidding aside, what I was trying to convey in my message to Mikael is that the reasons/methods he uses to disproove Lao Zi's existence shall apply to proove his own ancestors

So if one thinks that Laozi may not have existed because some scholars says, or because there is no hard evidence etc. then they should try and proove that they had an ancestor some 2-3000 years ago with the same method: provide us with some hard evidence, documents or the likes, of his existence

 

YM

 

the IRS is a social construction, of course they have to use time, another social construction.

 

read my earlier post again. theres no need to prove my ancestors existence because I exist myself. thats proof enough.

 

the proof of Lao Zi's existence, or knowing his birthday, will not change the meaning of Tao Te Ching. so i consider this trivial

[YMWong]

the proof of Lao Zi's existence, or knowing his birthday, will not change the meaning of Tao Te Ching. so i consider this trivial

 

I am sure that your mom/wife/fiancee's birthday is equally trivial, in that knowing it doesn't change the meaning of your relationship to her/them yet I guess you still remember it every year.

 

For a Daoist, Laozi is one of the forefathers of Daoism and in previous emanations a representation of Dao itself, the creator of the 'ten thousand beings'.

He existed and the transmission we were passed down for generations is the proove, just like your existence shows you had forefathers.

 

YM