faster punch

[goldisheavy]

Ok, like I said before, I am not really a martial artist, but I enjoy martial arts and respect people who practice them. I especially like any and all wisdom that sometimes comes out of martial arts, especially if I am able to contemplate it.

 

So because that's my attitude, sometimes I try an experiment or two. One time I was thinking about fast punches. I was thinking, why is it some people can punch so fast? How to punch faster?

 

And then I realized that a problem could be buried in how we think about punching and what it means to punch someone. I come from a heavy physicalist background, so I instinctively have a lot of faith in matter, in inertia, in laws of physics and such things. And likewise, I also view the world through this lens too. So I think other people are more or less like me. So then what does it mean to punch from a physicalist perspective? You have to accelerate your arm matter to a certain speed using muscle power. That's slow just by definition! When I think this way, I picture my hand gaining speed, slowly, the dumb unlively matter accelerating. I see my hand going through many positions in space. The image that all this brings to my mind is one of slowness.

 

If I look at it from a non-physicalist point of view, I ask myself, "What is it I want?" I have hand manifested in one spot and I want it manifested in another spot. Everything related to acceleration, intermediate positions, meat and bones, all that is irrelevant and just gets in the way. So, I tried punching while consciously seeing how my hand simply and instantly materializes in an extended position, without accelerating and without pssing through intermediate stages. Further, I've envisioned my arm and fist as a direct (rather than indirect) projection of intent (yi), as something that's truly alive through and through and not automatic dumb matter. The result was that my punch instantly became much much faster, if not instant.

 

The difference this approach makes depends on how deeply and how authentically can you step away from the physicalist paradigm. So, if all this sounds like nonsense to you, and if you think there is just no foolin' with the laws of physics, then this approach may give you nothing, because you won't be able to rise above a level of pretense in your intent.

 

In any case, I hope this is entertaining and educational. Please don't use this to hurt people if you can help it.

Edited March 11, 2009 by goldisheavy

[gendao]

Ok, like I said before, I am not really a martial artist, but I enjoy martial arts and respect people who practice them. I especially like any and all wisdom that sometimes comes out of martial arts, especially if I am able to contemplate it.

 

So because that's my attitude, sometimes I try an experiment or two. One time I was thinking about fast punches. I was thinking, why is it some people can punch so fast? How to punch faster?

 

And then I realized that a problem could be buried in how we think about punching and what it means to punch someone. I come from a heavy physicalist background, so I instinctively have a lot of faith in matter, in inertia, in laws of physics and such things. And likewise, I also view the world through this lens too. So I think other people are more or less like me. So then what does it mean to punch from a physicalist perspective? You have to accelerate your arm matter to a certain speed using muscle power. That's slow just by definition! When I think this way, I picture my hand gaining speed, slowly, the dumb unlively matter accelerating. I see my hand going through many positions in space. The image that all this brings to my mind is one of slowness.

 

If I look at it from a non-physicalist point of view, I ask myself, "What is it I want?" I have hand manifested in one spot and I want it manifested in another spot. Everything related to acceleration, intermediate positions, meat and bones, all that is irrelevant and just gets in the way. So, I tried punching while consciously seeing how my hand simply and instantly materializes in an extended position, without accelerating and without pssing through intermediate stages. Further, I've envisioned my arm and fist as a direct (rather than indirect) projection of intent (yi), as something that's truly alive through and through and not automatic dumb matter. The result was that my punch instantly became much much faster, if not instant.

 

The difference this approach makes depends on how deeply and how authentically can you step away from the physicalist paradigm. So, if all this sounds like nonsense to you, and if you think there is just no foolin' with the laws of physics, then this approach may give you nothing, because you won't be able to rise above a level of pretense in your intent.

 

In any case, I hope this is entertaining and educational. Please don't use this to hurt people if you can help it.

That's cool, you should post a demo video of it.

 

However, in fighting it's not just speed but POWER. You can always flick a hand out really fast...but can you also put power into it at the same time? And then deliver that fast power in combos in rapid succession?

 

I think this is one of the core skills in a good, solid fighter...yet it's not taught in most arts.

[goldisheavy]

However, in fighting it's not just speed but POWER.

 

Why do we need power? What is the function of it? I think if you think about it, you'll agree that the function of power, as well as the function of speed, is to create a disruption in the system of a person. In other words, a person sees themselves in a certain way, and if you introduce a temporary inconsistency into their system, inconsistency between perception and the desired self-image, the person goes into various levels of shock, depending on how undesirable or strange the inconsistency is.

 

This is why strange light punches that pull the skin in the weird directions at the same time can be so effective sometimes. But at the same time, if someone has a flexible mind that doesn't demand a very strict form, then these exact punches will be a waste of time against such person.

 

The only reason we tend to gravitate toward power as a necessary component is because we believe so much in the physical reality of meat and bones and such. But the point of my post there was to allow the person to try a punch from a completely different view of the universe.

 

So speed even with minimal power can create a strong disruption in a person's self-image.

 

You can always flick a hand out really fast...but can you also put power into it at the same time? And then deliver that fast power in combos in rapid succession?

 

I think this is one of the core skills in a good, solid fighter...yet it's not taught in most arts.

 

Well, one time a southern style (short hand) praying mantis guy did a little demo on me. He gently and extremely quickly tapped me so that I flew across the room. Granted, I wasn't really resisting much, because I just wanted to observe this guy and see what he's doing there, but I have to tell you. Those light taps are, how shall I put it, like being hit with a 30 lbs of wet towel very fast, very tiresome, bruising, extremely disorienting, and if you're not used to it, scary, because in southern style the guy invades your space and gets real close and personal to you, right in your face. In other words, it's a lot more effective than you might think.

 

The guy that demoed this to me was not just fast though, he was also extremely strong and an all around athlete. He does strength and endurance training and the whole works, and not just the internal stuff. So even a very light tap from him is like being hit with a big mallet, and he was only playing around.

 

Obviously this is all anecdotal. I suggest you actually try taking on someone who practices something like that and see for yourself.

 

There is a lot of bullshit though. Like the Tai Chi guy who couldn't even budge my hand with his "technique". That's because I am strong and I don't lunge around. I just stay there and stick my arm out and hold it. He can't move it, because he doesn't have any momentum to borrow. He could try pushing me, but then I'd borrow his push if he did that. Needless to say, very disappointing fake, fake teacher. And this guy charges money too. Horrible.

Edited March 12, 2009 by goldisheavy

[gendao]

Yes, I've been hit with a qi punch, where the very light physical contact merely served as a conduit for the qi - that easily knocked me off my feet.

 

However, until you've made that "quantum leap" into energetic power...you're going to have to rely on actual physical power (not energetic theory).

 

And either way, you still want power (whether it's physically or energetically-derived).

[goldisheavy]

Yes, I've been hit with a qi punch, where the very light physical contact merely served as a conduit for the qi - that easily knocked me off my feet.

 

However, until you've made that "quantum leap" into energetic power...you're going to have to rely on actual physical power (not energetic theory).

 

And either way, you still want power (whether it's physically or energetically-derived).

 

Ok, I don't think you can follow what I am saying. So instead I will have to follow what you are saying for the time being.

 

Let's assume power is what you want to generate. From the point of view of pure physics, what gives you more power? Accelerated mass under inertia, or active pushing? Keep in mind, that as you push more and more, the speed slows down. This is why you don't see power lifters snap 800 lbs off their chest. It's a slow, sloooooooow exertion. And that's why it's called "grinding". So if you want to gain some speed, you need to lose some of what you call "power", but really, you lose your pushing application and rely more on inertia of the arm-hand meat-bones-tendons-etc system. So it makes perfect sense to put maximum power into acceleration rather than pushing at the end of the punch (with the exception of one inch punch, where you really need to push and have no time or space for acceleration).

 

Speed has many advantages over pushing. First, speed has power because kinetic power is power. In other words, no matter what power you put into acceleration, none of it is lost, so there is no inefficiency introduced by focusing on speed (more on this later). So you don't really lose power, especially if you have somewhat meaty arms that weigh something. Second, and more importantly, it's a tactical advantage. Not only do you get to your target faster, and thus potentially first, but you also allow less time for dodging, and the element of surprise (which is psychologically shocking) is increased. If you are still not convinced, forget about it. Just keep thinking how you currently think.

 

I was trying to get people to look at a punch from a less physicalist perspective, if not completely non-physicalist. This perspective is a quantum leap beyond the chi paradigm.

 

The most important thing in a non-physicalist world is expression. So your punch is not about power but it is about expression, and a fight is more like a debate than a struggle. You are negotiating your opponent instead of fighting him. You produce perceptions that are not acceptable to a rigid mindset, and the mindset falls apart or retreats. The punch is not about moving some meat or bones. It's about creating an experience. Apparently this is way over your head given your comments.

 

Finally, since it's very hard to leap from a physicalist to a completely non-physicalist perspective, there is still one element that can slow down a punch. It's fear. That's because if you punch with maximum speed, you can't afford to slow your arm down at all. That means you have to let your fist flare out. This means the only thing that's holding your arm together at the point of maximum extension is your tendon and other connective tissue. This can produce tendon tear, easily. So in order to gain maximum speed, one has to overcome the fear or tendon rupture. For this purpose tendons have to be trained, so that you're not afraid to let your arm completely go. So then even if it flares out 100%, completely allowed to go forth without returning, the tendon is reliable to snap it back for you, and you don't use your muscle to hold it back to yourself at the end of the punch.

 

If we could just jump into 100% non-physicalist realm, then tendons don't matter at all and the arm will stay where you intend it to stay, by definition.

 

What I am trying to explain here is a kind of internal approach that does not rely on chi at all.

 

Another option is to throw a throughtform at the person. Again, for this there is no need to create chi. You can toss a symbol at a person. But that's hard to do if you don't really believe in the power of symbols.

 

P.S.: The southern style praying mantis guy didn't hit me with "chi" or "jing". He just hit me as I described. Just a fast, confusing, heavy flurry.

Edited March 12, 2009 by goldisheavy

[gendao]

Let's assume power is what you want to generate. From the point of view of pure physics, what gives you more power?

 

If we could just jump into 100% non-physicalist realm, then tendons don't matter at all and the arm will stay where you intend it to stay, by definition.

 

What I am trying to explain here is a kind of internal approach that does not rely on chi at all.

 

Another option is to throw a throughtform at the person. Again, for this there is no need to create chi. You can toss a symbol at a person. But that's hard to do if you don't really believe in the power of symbols.

 

P.S.: The southern style praying mantis guy didn't hit me with "chi" or "jing". He just hit me as I described. Just a fast, confusing, heavy flurry.

P = mad/t

 

So, the more mass you move farther, with higher acceleration in a shorter amount of time...the more power you have. From a physical perspective.

 

The difference between a push and a punch is that a push starts out at the same velocity as the target upon contact - while a punch comes in at a much higher velocity. It's like pitching a baseball vs hitting one with a bat. Hence a 1" punch is nearly a push since it only has an inch to gain speed before making contact.

 

Anyhow, I like your thinking outside the box...essentially you are talking about instant manifestation or teleportation. Sort of like in the Philadelphia Experiment. But on a more mundane level, just the idea itself might help you to punch faster. So, I would like to see a demo vid of this. Talk less, show more...

[Mal]

[zanshin]

I've been taught a way to generate power is to think past where you want to hit to the end of the punch so as you contact you are still in that "intermediate position" accelerating thru even if very strong and fast if you hit at the point of maximum extension no power. Maybe I'm better at theory than application since I'm not very physically strong although I am stronger than I look.

[Wayfarer64]

Yes, I've been hit with a qi punch, where the very light physical contact merely served as a conduit for the qi - that easily knocked me off my feet.

 

However, until you've made that "quantum leap" into energetic power...you're going to have to rely on actual physical power (not energetic theory).

 

And either way, you still want power (whether it's physically or energetically-derived).

 

 

That has been my experience as well... The tap of a qi loaded hand is monumentally more powerfull than a punch from a non-qi-loaded hand... The release of such power - (from the hand of a master) is awesome -to use an over-used word

 

 

not being a master of qi projection, but able to use it a wee bit, I tend to project my punches to a place beyond the surface of what I am trying to hit and transmit the energy into the object as best I am able - being on the move in some cases...

 

I find stance is as important in many cases as projection of intent. Being mindful of all componants adds up to being calm and able to project the needed power/energy to do what is needed and no more/less than needed...

[thelerner]

Talk talk talk. Some of the best experience for me was a hammer and nails class. Grab small nail, tap tap lightly to set it, one motion w/ relaxed intent hit it. If you can get a few in cleanly w/ one blow, grab a bigger nail repeat. Precision, focus and intent w/ immediate feedback. When its looks phoney and long nails fall in w/out effort, boom baby, your on the right track.

 

Its cheaper then boards

 

And nothing brings you down to reality sooner then working w/ a heavy bag.

 

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

Talk talk talk. Some of the best experience for me was a hammer and nails class. Grab small nail, tap tap lightly to set it, one motion w/ relaxed intent hit it. If you can get a few in cleanly w/ one blow, grab a bigger nail repeat. Precision, focus and intent w/ immediate feedback. When its looks phoney and long nails fall in w/out effort, boom baby, your on the right track.

 

Its cheaper then boards

 

And nothing brings you down to reality sooner then working w/ a heavy bag.

Michael

 

 

Are you saying you swing the hammer as usual, in a "chopping" manner? If so, aren't those different muscles that gain memory?

[gendao]

Mal - That sounds like "snapping a towel."

Talk talk talk. Some of the best experience for me was a hammer and nails class. Grab small nail, tap tap lightly to set it, one motion w/ relaxed intent hit it. If you can get a few in cleanly w/ one blow, grab a bigger nail repeat. Precision, focus and intent w/ immediate feedback. When its looks phoney and long nails fall in w/out effort, boom baby, your on the right track.

 

Its cheaper then boards

 

And nothing brings you down to reality sooner then working w/ a heavy bag.

Michael

Great drill! A literal way to train the Systema concept of "dropping the hammer."

 

Anyhow, I agree. We could talk shop and theorize here all day...but heavy hits on a bad speak louder than any words... As the Chinese say, "talk don't cook rice." And it won't put a dent in a bag, either. Theory is great, but at the end of the day it's what you can actually DO NOW.

 

I get frustrated with IMA wannabes sometimes because many love talking about how superior their art theoretically is, but can't actually walk their talk. (Not saying anyone here is an IMA wannabe.) I just know too many Taijiquan wannabes (including myself) who really can't apply any of the theory in real life.

 

In fact, the only vid I have of a Taijiquan master fighting was the one in Macao in 1953 between Wu-style descendant Wu GongYi and White Crane stylist Chan HakFu:

S19VsB7__v0

To his credit, Wu definitely got the upper hand here, despite being shorter and much older. However, overall I feel both fighters were an embarassment to CMA. Their rigid stances, flat-footed footwork, lack of mobility and "girl slapping" just look pathetic. And I believe are a direct result of being too theoretical with little to no actual sparring ever...

 

My personal goal is actually to combine the internal power of IMA with a better delivery system (like JKD).

 

So, I think this conversation would become infinitely more interesting if everyone just posted up a few YouTube vids... I for one am very interested in the science of punching and would love to see some different approaches and results.

Edited March 12, 2009 by vortex

[Wayfarer64]

and now a nice Hawaiian punch---glug glug

[doc benway]

 

If I look at it from a non-physicalist point of view, I ask myself, "What is it I want?" I have hand manifested in one spot and I want it manifested in another spot. Everything related to acceleration, intermediate positions, meat and bones, all that is irrelevant and just gets in the way. So, I tried punching while consciously seeing how my hand simply and instantly materializes in an extended position, without accelerating and without pssing through intermediate stages. Further, I've envisioned my arm and fist as a direct (rather than indirect) projection of intent (yi), as something that's truly alive through and through and not automatic dumb matter. The result was that my punch instantly became much much faster, if not instant.

 

I had the same experience. Many years ago I practiced Wing Chun which is known for fast hands.

Your description is exactly how I trained myself to punch very fast. I'm not a big or strong person but I was able to develop a lot of speed and it served me well in sparring back then. I would simply use my intention to have my hand be at the target. No attention whatsoever to what (if anything) happened between point A and point B. It's just THERE! Good practice.

[Ya Mu]

Ok, like I said before, I am not really a martial artist, but I enjoy martial arts and respect people who practice them. I especially like any and all wisdom that sometimes comes out of martial arts, especially if I am able to contemplate it.

 

So because that's my attitude, sometimes I try an experiment or two. One time I was thinking about fast punches. I was thinking, why is it some people can punch so fast? How to punch faster?

 

And then I realized that a problem could be buried in how we think about punching and what it means to punch someone. I come from a heavy physicalist background, so I instinctively have a lot of faith in matter, in inertia, in laws of physics and such things. And likewise, I also view the world through this lens too. So I think other people are more or less like me. So then what does it mean to punch from a physicalist perspective? You have to accelerate your arm matter to a certain speed using muscle power. That's slow just by definition! When I think this way, I picture my hand gaining speed, slowly, the dumb unlively matter accelerating. I see my hand going through many positions in space. The image that all this brings to my mind is one of slowness.

 

If I look at it from a non-physicalist point of view, I ask myself, "What is it I want?" I have hand manifested in one spot and I want it manifested in another spot. Everything related to acceleration, intermediate positions, meat and bones, all that is irrelevant and just gets in the way. So, I tried punching while consciously seeing how my hand simply and instantly materializes in an extended position, without accelerating and without pssing through intermediate stages. Further, I've envisioned my arm and fist as a direct (rather than indirect) projection of intent (yi), as something that's truly alive through and through and not automatic dumb matter. The result was that my punch instantly became much much faster, if not instant.

 

The difference this approach makes depends on how deeply and how authentically can you step away from the physicalist paradigm. So, if all this sounds like nonsense to you, and if you think there is just no foolin' with the laws of physics, then this approach may give you nothing, because you won't be able to rise above a level of pretense in your intent.

 

In any case, I hope this is entertaining and educational. Please don't use this to hurt people if you can help it.

 

So, since this works, why limit it to having to use the arm/fist/tendons? Why can't you just shift the paradigm and use yi to have the opponents head all of a sudden snap back from a felt punch. After all, from what I understand you are saying is that the limitation to everything can be solved from a paradigm shift. Why be limited?

 

I do agree with the above posting; this is very close to what Master Chang taught in MA.

I am not a MA, just observing.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

about this topic, just one thing to share..

 

While with my years of experience with kungfu, specially Gwongzhau Wingchun, I can say that nothing can make your punch "FAST" and "POWERFUL" except for hard trainings from days to days, non-stop.

 

First stage is to DO IT RIGHT instead of DO IT FAST. Do your punching slowly, watch for correct posture and do not be lazy. After 1 year, then move on to #2.

 

#2 stage is to DO IT FASTER. Speed up a little bit by bit, but make sure have your sifu to check if your punch is going correct with postures even you are doing it faster. No lazy punches!

 

#3 FASTER trianing - now go for faster speed. Have a paper hang in front of you with a string, now stand in front and keep punching, until a point that the paper is not even leaving your hand from punch to punch, and the paper shall swing directly back at you in a straight line.

 

#4 CHI punch - now stand in front of a candle and punch about 10cm distance, if the candle can be extinguish, stand abit furthur and do it again. If you can do it for 30cm, now go back to 10cm and light 2 candles in a row. If you can do 1 punch and extinguish 3 candles in a line, you are great on your way.

[thelerner]

Are you saying you swing the hammer as usual, in a "chopping" manner? If so, aren't those different muscles that gain memory?

 

Its a 'natural' hammer swing. Starts w/ shoulder joint, then elbow, wrist kept straight, hammer held snuggly, close to the end. Different muscles then punching, more like a sword swing.

 

My first Karate teacher-(shotokan) taught us to punch w/ the fist parallel to the ground, though his punch generally ended horizontal ie thumb side up. Having played w/ both I'm convinced the truth is in the middle. The fist ends angle, a little higher then 45 degrees.

 

It feels good to me. The other 'proof' is that if I swing my arms out naturally, and freeze them when they're out, my hands are at that angle. Its where they go naturally, thus that is right (for me). How about your hands?

 

Lastly, w/ my right hand I generally make what my Aikido instructor called a jujitsu fist. My second finger sticks out and is locked in place by thumb. The theory is half the surface area, twice the impact. I'd hate to hit anything really hard w/ it, but lots of soft targets on the human body.

 

My sensei used to tap us on the floating rib w/ it, and it was breathtaking.

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

Michael- thank you-

It sounds like good training for what I would call the "floating" punch - one that does not move far but packs a momentous wallop - instant vilocity as it were.

 

It also seems akin to what the other conversation here is alluding to - Yes?

Projecting the energy, or is it actually still mass? - Is that the "alchemy" - to transfer ones' mass into energy ?

Projecting a punch mentally before/while one is on the move having won the fight before it begins?

[Pranaman]

your intention changed from physical motion, to the conclusion. Thinking about throwing a punch slows down the action. The change in your intention eliminated this factor.

 

My view on the punch...

 

Mass X acceleration = force

(balance and optimize this ratio)

 

one steady speed will generate less force then the peak of acceleration being just before the point of contact.

 

there is a split second between the movement of your muscle, and your skeleton. Your tendons connect the two. This is why isometric exercises that place most of the work on the tendons is important. Unity in muscle and skeleton equals better mechanics and better control over acceleration.

 

standing practice in order to recruit as many muscles as possible to any particular movement = greater mass.

 

All muscles united in movement + tendons uniting muscle and skeleton = a body with flow.

 

Without thinking of the punch, just simply being grounded in the present moment, then instinctually throwing the punch without thought, that is key and is what I believe you have found. just in my mildly experienced opinion.

[goldisheavy]

So, since this works, why limit it to having to use the arm/fist/tendons? Why can't you just shift the paradigm and use yi to have the opponents head all of a sudden snap back from a felt punch. After all, from what I understand you are saying is that the limitation to everything can be solved from a paradigm shift. Why be limited?

 

Exactly right, but then you run into very very deep core beliefs about reality, about what's possible and what's not. And those beliefs are intentional. In other words, your intention really has a lot broader character to it than just one individual element like a single punch.

 

So what you are saying is possible, but from our point of view, the kind of person whose intention is capable of that is likely insane. This kind of person is not even in our realm perhaps, not at this moment. But it's good to be aware of that possibility. Because if you know of it as a possible direction for travel, if you are not there yet, you can begin traveling there and end up there at some point. But if you don't know about such direction, then you cannot even begin traveling to that particular destination.

 

---

 

To others, first, this is not theoretical. It's practical. I said why not make an experiment? Did you try it? It only takes a few seconds, maybe a minute at the most. Did you try it? Did it work? Maybe it works. Maybe not. It worked as I described for me.

 

I am not here to prove anything to anyone. I don't want to impress anyone. And besides, I have nothing to impress with anyway. As I told you guys, I don't practice this kind of stuff to learn how to punch for martial arts. I once in a while try something like that to explore intentionality and manifestation for the purpose of wisdom. Once I learn my lesson, I do not have to continue.

 

If you punch heavy bag like a dumb idiot, but a dumb hardworking idiot, for 3 years, consistently, you'll get a good punch. But if you are a contemplative person who also punches the bag for 3 years, equally as diligently, but you also contemplate what you are doing and are not dumb about it, your punch will be much much better than the dumb idiot's punch.

 

So how you practice is as important as how long you practice. Quality is as important as quantity, just like Mak Tin Si said. This is not a penis contest. I am sure all you guys here punch better than me. I think discussing the intricacies of experience is not a waste of time.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Mal]