Dropping Yi...

[dwai]

As requested by Goldisheavy, I am starting a new thread on why/how I think Yi can be dropped.

 

"The mind leads, the Chi follows" is true only till a certain level of chi awareness is attained and exercises on guiding flow of Chi is done. After that, the intent should be dropped and the Chi allowed to flow as it does. That is the water course way (as I understand it and as I have been told).

[Stigweard]

As requested by Goldisheavy, I am starting a new thread on why/how I think Yi can be dropped.

 

"The mind leads, the Chi follows" is true only till a certain level of chi awareness is attained and exercises on guiding flow of Chi is done. After that, the intent should be dropped and the Chi allowed to flow as it does. That is the water course way (as I understand it and as I have been told).

 

 

Please define your understanding of 'Yi' and 'dropped'

 

Thank you

Edited March 12, 2009 by Stigweard

[宁]

Great thread idea!

 

Most of what we know is Yi - intention and purposefullness...

We use that to activate Qi - when it is sufficient, it's intelligence allows us to act from a different standpoint...

It's like having another operating system, besides Windows...

You commute from one to another when you practice...

There's more than these two, it seems:)

[cheya]

 

 

Great thread idea!

Most of what we know is Yi - intention and purposefullness...
We use that to activate Qi - when it is sufficient, it's intelligence allows us to act from a different standpoint...
It's like having another operating system, besides Windows...
You commute from one to another when you practice...
There's more than these two, it seems:)

More than these two? Could you elaborate?

Thanks,
 

[dwai]

Please define your understanding of 'Yi' and 'dropped'

 

Thank you

 

Stig,

 

Yi is the conscious mind/intention that we use to do everyday things. Such as "I need to drink a cup of coffee", or "I need to pick up this pencil from the floor", etc.

 

At a certain point in one's practice, one can drop all props and tools used to do Chi work, such as Yi, the Breath, etc. Then you don't move the Chi, the Chi moves you, spontaneously.

[gendao]

Intent is merely issuing the command, not thinking how it will best manifest.

 

It's like typing in commands on your keyboard. You don't worry about what happens after that. If you do, your mind would only get in the way...

 

Aim and release the arrow with your mind. Then let it go...

Clinging to it will only slow it down and distort its path.

Edited March 12, 2009 by vortex

[Ya Mu]

I agree with the OP.

My experience is that, as long as the mind is engaged at all, there will be limitations. Instead of using what you call yi and intent, I use what I call INTENT which differs from the linear intent in that it is a non-linear quantum level event (a different interpretation of Yi). It is set, then forgotten. Then the qi accomplishes (or has already accomplished) whatever we set our INTENT, which in the case of what I do, is specific healing. If the mind is kept engaged a lot can be accomplished but it will always be less than when the mind is disengaged.

[idquest]

At a certain point in one's practice, one can drop all props and tools used to do Chi work, such as Yi, the Breath, etc. Then you don't move the Chi, the Chi moves you, spontaneously.

I understand this is how all 'active' meditations are done, with yang and yin phases. In yang phase, you do your energy work or whatever, in yin phase (with a duration about the same as a yang phase, ideally) you just sit still and allow to happen whatever happens.

[宁]

I understand this is how all 'active' meditations are done, with yang and yin phases. In yang phase, you do your energy work or whatever, in yin phase (with a duration about the same as a yang phase, ideally) you just sit still and allow to happen whatever happens.

 

spot on. but there's more than that, i'm not the one to talk about it, but i feel you know it too. and btw your energy is somewhat familliar:) may i ask... nevermind:)

[Stigweard]

Stig,

 

Yi is the conscious mind/intention that we use to do everyday things. Such as "I need to drink a cup of coffee", or "I need to pick up this pencil from the floor", etc.

 

At a certain point in one's practice, one can drop all props and tools used to do Chi work, such as Yi, the Breath, etc. Then you don't move the Chi, the Chi moves you, spontaneously.

 

Thank you for creating this dialogue ... in my endeavour to articulate my perception I have gained new learning.

 

_/\_

 

Firstly may I say that all this distinguishing of "this is this" and "that is that" is merely conceptual gymnastics. The ultimate reality is that all is one unified existance. These models and names are for the conceptual convenience of the mind and fall short of the subtle originalness.

 

However, I am rather partial to such mind games , so with the spirit of the proverbial finger pointing to the moon let us explore.

 

My first sense was that the idea of trying to 'drop Yi' was tantamount to saying 'Ok, stop using your spleen now'. Of course such a notion would be ludicrous.

 

I say this because in the Wu Xing 五行 (five phases) we have these correlations:

 

Wood - Liver - Hun, Ethereal Soul(s)

 

Fire - Heart - Shen, spirit/mind

 

Earth - Spleen - Yi, Intent/Intellect

 

Metal- Lungs - Po, Corporeal Soul(s)

 

Water - Kidneys - Zhi, Will-Power

 

In my study and training I have learned that the Yi is not to be dropped but rather, through the process of inner sublimation, Yi is brought 'into line' with Shen to become Shen Yi or "True Intent". With this 'alignment' in place our actions are governed by Te, true nature, and we exist within the Wu of Wu Wei.

 

So in essence when our Yi, along with all the other elements of the Wu Xing, are governed by and united with Shen we could possibly say that we are 'one with Tao'.

 

[goldisheavy]

Ha, so this thread started after all? Excellent!

 

Let me ask all of you here:

 

Do you intend to drop your intention? Let's analyze the basis of intention.

 

Is intention caused by something other than intention? If yes, then intention is unintentional in the first place. In that case, surrendering intention is meaningless and impossible to enforce, because at any time conditions can arise to give rise to new intention.

 

If not, then intention is primordial and cannot be dropped at all -- it can only change its character, but it cannot be dropped.

 

Another way to look at it is to examine the beginning and end of intention. For example, stand before a table with a cup on it. And intently pick up a cup and examine what happened right then and there. Did your intention have a beginning? If yes, it means prior to that beginning you were unintentional. Then from an unintentional state you entered intention. This seems like nonsense. Most logical is to say that intention cannot be said to have a beginning. Instead, certain character of intention changes, and not intention itself. So when you stand there before the cup, the fact that the cup is on the table, is not unintentional. It's intentional! You intently do not pick it up, even though you don't normally think of it like that, because you don't normally think of the negative as intention, but it is. When you pick up the cup, it's intentional because when you didn't pick it up, it was also intentional. That's because intention cannot affect that which is extra-intentional. If something is subject to influence by intention, then even in the state of rest, it is intentional. And if something is not a subject to influence by intention, then it's not ever affected by intention at all, and can be said to be unintentional.

 

Now let's examine some practical mysteries of intention. Normally people don't consider breathing to be intentional, because we don't think about breathing most of the time. It just happens. Now, is it possible to intentionally speed up or slow down your breathing? Seems yes! Aha! So that means breathing is not unintentional in the first place, since it is within the scope of intentional influence. So, ultimately breathing is intentional, but in practical terms, we don't think of it that way.

 

If you examine other functions like walking, you can see the same thing. Most of the time you have intention to go to some place and you don't produce individual intentions for each individual step of the foot. You produce a higher level intention to go to some place, and your feet walk "automatically", but this automatism is intentional and not unintentional, because you can demonstrate to yourself that your steps can fall within the influence of intention at a step-by-step level.

 

So what happens in Tai Chi when you're a master? It's not that you drop your intention! Not at all. On the contrary. Your intention becomes less fragmented and more whole. It becomes higher level and less micromanaging. You don't manage appearances in a step-by-step manner. You produce a higher intention of being some place, or of staying healthy, and then whatever happens automatically fulfills your higher order intention.

 

So you may ask then, what is the highest intention? I will say the highest intention is the intention of an enlightened being. It's intention that has no characteristics, because it is so high and so whole, that all appearances are taken care of automatically. But that state is an intentional state! It's possible to intentionally exit that state and start to micromanage appearances if you want just like a person can decide to walk using random and strange steps, making each step intentionally different from the others.

 

Look at how the flies fly. A fly flaps its wings so fast. Do you think they have time to think about each flap? I say no. Fly intends to fly left or right, but it doesn't intend at the level of individual wing flap. That doesn't mean wing flaps are unintentional, unless there is no way at all for a fly to control wings in an intricate manner. If the fly can intentionally tilt its wing for cleaning, that means the wing falls within the scope of intention, so everything the wing does is intentional, even if it's on auto-pilot at some point.

 

So a Tai Chi master raises intention to higher and higher levels. There is less and less micromanagement of phenomena. But at no point is it ever unintentional. At no point does anything ever act "on its own". There is nothing "on its own". Everything is always connected. Ultimately nothing is produced. Ultimately nothing is destroyed.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[joeblast]

These are the kinds of discussions I am on taobums for. Good stuff so far

 

Its been cool to see all of the foreground whittled away, until, having nothing left, the background came forward.

 

I can relate to a lot of these responses, different though they may be. Obi-Wan was able to apply the observation that Vader killed Anakin because he was aware of the fact that the dark side has the ability to gut one's soul, thus the point of view that Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin having a validity to it. A parallel seemed to be drawn here, in a way with the differing opinions. I love the spleen comment, hehe. Goldisheavy struck upon a good point, because if you reach that stage where an 'Yi becomes dropped' interpretation would appear to be applicable, it is in fact a process created by intention. Sometimes its those differing opinions that provide good catalyst for things to happen; ideas to flow.

 

Intent is mindfulness. The very process of accomplishing things that are ostensibly common goals to most every person that is a member of this forum...is a direct result of mindfulness. In that, we purport to be a community of mindfulness. I'd like to take a moment for each of us to reflect on that as we post here. Are you doing so mindfully? I try to

 

To reach that state where we live and breathe our practices is to reach a state of consistent mindfulness, taking in and enjoying every single moment of the current configuration of our existence.

Edited March 13, 2009 by joeblast

[Stigweard]

So what happens in Tai Chi when you're a master? It's not that you drop your intention! Not at all. On the contrary. Your intention becomes less fragmented and more whole. It becomes higher level and less micromanaging. You don't manage appearances in a step-by-step manner. You produce a higher intention of being some place, or of staying healthy, and then whatever happens automatically fulfills your higher order intention.

 

So you may ask then, what is the highest intention? I will say the highest intention is the intention of an enlightened being. It's intention that has no characteristics, because it is so high and so whole, that all appearances are taken care of automatically. But that state is an intentional state! It's possible to intentionally exit that state and start to micromanage appearances if you want just like a person can decide to walk using random and strange steps, making each step intentionally different from the others.

 

Look at how the flies fly. A fly flaps its wings so fast. Do you think they have time to think about each flap? I say no. Fly intends to fly left or right, but it doesn't intend at the level of individual wing flap. That doesn't mean wing flaps are unintentional, unless there is no way at all for a fly to control wings in an intricate manner. If the fly can intentionally tilt its wing for cleaning, that means the wing falls within the scope of intention, so everything the wing does is intentional, even if it's on auto-pilot at some point.

 

So a Tai Chi master raises intention to higher and higher levels. There is less and less micromanagement of phenomena. But at no point is it ever unintentional. At no point does anything ever act "on its own". There is nothing "on its own". Everything is always connected. Ultimately nothing is produced. Ultimately nothing is destroyed.

 

It would seem you and I are in agreement.

[wudan]

 

Is intention caused by something other than intention? If yes, then intention is unintentional in the first place. In that case, surrendering intention is meaningless and impossible to enforce, because at any time conditions can arise to give rise to new intention.

 

 

Yes, intention is caused by Me("I"), so it isnt isolated *thing* which has cause and effect by itself.

 

 

So when you stand there before the cup, the fact that the cup is on the table, is not unintentional. It's intentional! You intently do not pick it up, even though you don't normally think of it like that, because you don't normally think of the negative as intention, but it is. When you pick up the cup, it's intentional because when you didn't pick it up, it was also intentional. That's because intention cannot affect that which is extra-intentional. If something is subject to influence by intention, then even in the state of rest, it is intentional. And if something is not a subject to influence by intention, then it's not ever affected by intention at all, and can be said to be unintentional.

 

I can intently do not pick up a cup, but first i have to desire to pic it up! ;-)

And then i can merge it with intent to let it flow, and pic it up; or block desire by

negative intent to do not pick up a cup.

 

ps. thanks for interesting post which made me think a bit

[Unconditioned]

Now let's examine some practical mysteries of intention. Normally people don't consider breathing to be intentional, because we don't think about breathing most of the time. It just happens. Now, is it possible to intentionally speed up or slow down your breathing? Seems yes! Aha! So that means breathing is not unintentional in the first place, since it is within the scope of intentional influence. So, ultimately breathing is intentional, but in practical terms, we don't think of it that way.

 

Does this mean that in order to have intention we must have awareness of the 'thing/action' we intend?

 

So with the fly example, the fly may not be thinking "move the wing, move the wing" but do they need to be aware that they have the possibility to move?

 

With the breathing I would assume we have to be aware of our breathing in order to alter it (e.g., when we are asleep are we able to change our breathing?).

 

So, can we infer that awareness is required for intention? And if so what are the implications?

 

Agreed that this is a very interesting post!

[goldisheavy]

Yes, intention is caused by Me("I")

 

That's kind of half true sort of. It's caused by you, but it's not caused by you as you most likely think you are. So if you think you know who you are, then your statement is more of a fantasy. If you know the true meaning of yourself, then your statement is the complete truth.

 

I don't know anything about you, but judging from my experience of random people, chances are you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Intention is always whole at the ultimate level, but as various levels of your own mindset begin to condition your mind, intention becomes fractured, structured and conditioned by the mindset. So it's very easy to say half-truths about intention, but it's hard to see intention fully without long spiritual practice of contemplation.

 

Am I you? Is my intention your intention? If you say "yes", then perhaps you see the full extent of your intention. If you say "no", then you are still dreaming unconsciously (as opposed to dreaming consciously). But like I said, I have no way to know for sure.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Does this mean that in order to have intention we must have awareness of the 'thing/action' we intend?

 

I wouldn't characterize your relationship with intention as "having" or "not having" it. If it's possible for you not to have intention, then how can you enter intentional state from unintentional? That means your intention is unintentional, and is thus meaningless. So, if you have any intention at all, you have it primordially, that is to say, it's not something that you can have or not have. So in essence you don't have it, but you are it, or it is within your nature rather than something temporary that comes and goes to/from you.

 

So what changes? What changes is the character of your intention. And the clearer you can visualize (with all your senses and with your entire being) what it is you want, the clearer you can intend to manifest it. But this process of manifestation is about changing the character or the flavor of your intention. It's not about acquiring intention whereas before you lacked intention.

 

That's how I see it currently.

 

So with the fly example, the fly may not be thinking "move the wing, move the wing" but do they need to be aware that they have the possibility to move?

 

Yup.

 

With the breathing I would assume we have to be aware of our breathing in order to alter it (e.g., when we are asleep are we able to change our breathing?).

 

Yes, you cannot control a numb body. Before you can move your body you have to become aware of it. If you are not able to sense your body, you cannot move it around. The body is a crude example, but it's not that bad. Essentially you have to be aware of the possibility and you must lack an obscuring belief structure. If that's true, your intention proceeds unimpeded at once manifesting appearances naturally in accord with itself. The way this process becomes disrupted is, as I see it, twofold:

 

1. You don't know about the possibility.

 

2. You know about the possibility, but you believe that while it's generally theoretically possible, there are many "good" reasons why it's not possible for you, not right now, not right here, not on this planet, not under this condition, etc.

 

Seeing possibilities involves creativity, mystery, uninhibited wildness. That's what some people might call "right brained". Clearing away obscuring beliefs involves dissolving the old beliefs in the potent acid of contemplation. Continued sincere questioning and examination of beliefs tends to dissolve them. That's a task for the "left brain". These are very crude metaphors, so if you catch my point, I would suggest to forget what I said and not take anything I say literally, but instead rely on your own innate wisdom.

 

So, can we infer that awareness is required for intention? And if so what are the implications?

 

I would say it's "required", but awareness is always present. Awareness should never be confused with apparent objects that appear before it. Awareness is like a movie screen. It's impartial. What appears on the screen can be wildly different. A person never lacks awareness. A person might falsely associate awareness with certain shapes on the screen and if those shapes are absent, such person will think they are unaware. That kind of process has to do with the mindset, with the deep beliefs about reality and not really with awareness per se. Awareness is always ever on, ever shining with apparent objects. These "objects" appear either gross or subtle, either as physical features or as thoughts or anything else. They can be easily describable or mysterious and impossible to describe.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[adam mizner]

good good, this is the truth

 

metta

adam

 

 

I agree with the OP.

My experience is that, as long as the mind is engaged at all, there will be limitations. Instead of using what you call yi and intent, I use what I call INTENT which differs from the linear intent in that it is a non-linear quantum level event (a different interpretation of Yi). It is set, then forgotten. Then the qi accomplishes (or has already accomplished) whatever we set our INTENT, which in the case of what I do, is specific healing. If the mind is kept engaged a lot can be accomplished but it will always be less than when the mind is disengaged.

[exorcist_1699]

It seems that there are two types of intention , one is daily- life type : We have intention, then follows it a series of ideas . It is a pseudo mind's type of pursuing something. The essence of it is that no matter how hard we try in life , in th end, what we pursue is futile .There always are pains and regrets . This is also the reason why life always gives people a feeling of dreaming and illusion for death is definitely waiting for us at the end .

 

Another one is the real MIND's , in which even though we have some intention , a series of consciousness does not arise , there is no upheavals at all . No pains and no regrets , but omnipotent understanding . You drop a rock into a crystal clear pool of water, yet no ripples arise .

 

Of course, this Genuine Intention is one of the appearances of Shen .This is also the reason why Taoism claim accomplishment without doing anything .

 

Genuine Intention is also called Genuine Earth . Don't forget that our mind is not only affected by breathing but the status of other organs in our body . Here, the importance of 5-element framework can be sensed .

Edited March 14, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[WhiteTiger]

Another one is the real MIND's , in which even though we have some intention , a series of consciousness does not arise , there is no upheavals at all . You drop a rock into a crystal clear pool of water, yet no ripples arise .

 

Of course, this Genuine Intention is one of the characteristics of Shen .This is also the reason why Taoism claim accomplishment without doing anything .

 

Genuine Intention is also called Genuine Earth . Don't forget that our mind is not only affected by breathing but the status of other organs in our body . Here, the importance of 5-element framework can be sensed .

 

Thanks for sharing. Enjoyed the read.

Edited March 14, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[wudan]

That's kind of half true sort of. It's caused by you, but it's not caused by you as you most likely think you are.

As you said, you cant know it for sure.

Half true is when someon like you comment first half of full sentence, and pursue

that understand what i meant to say.

 

I don't know anything about you, but judging from my experience of random people, chances are you don't know what you're talking about.

You dont know anything about me, maybe because your intention isnt my intention..

 

 

 

Intention is always whole at the ultimate level, but as various levels of your own mindset begin to condition your mind, intention becomes fractured, structured and conditioned by the mindset. So it's very easy to say half-truths about intention, but it's hard to see intention fully without long spiritual practice of contemplation.

 

Thanks for this lesson about intention, and your point of view that makes you

*knowing better*, but pls let me discover what intention is by myself.

[dwai]

Thank you for creating this dialogue ... in my endeavour to articulate my perception I have gained new learning.

 

_/\_

 

Firstly may I say that all this distinguishing of "this is this" and "that is that" is merely conceptual gymnastics. The ultimate reality is that all is one unified existance. These models and names are for the conceptual convenience of the mind and fall short of the subtle originalness.

 

However, I am rather partial to such mind games , so with the spirit of the proverbial finger pointing to the moon let us explore.

 

My first sense was that the idea of trying to 'drop Yi' was tantamount to saying 'Ok, stop using your spleen now'. Of course such a notion would be ludicrous.

 

I say this because in the Wu Xing 五行 (five phases) we have these correlations:

 

Wood - Liver - Hun, Ethereal Soul(s)

 

Fire - Heart - Shen, spirit/mind

 

Earth - Spleen - Yi, Intent/Intellect

 

Metal- Lungs - Po, Corporeal Soul(s)

 

Water - Kidneys - Zhi, Will-Power

 

In my study and training I have learned that the Yi is not to be dropped but rather, through the process of inner sublimation, Yi is brought 'into line' with Shen to become Shen Yi or "True Intent". With this 'alignment' in place our actions are governed by Te, true nature, and we exist within the Wu of Wu Wei.

 

So in essence when our Yi, along with all the other elements of the Wu Xing, are governed by and united with Shen we could possibly say that we are 'one with Tao'.

 

 

I like your concept of aligning mundane Yi into Shen Yi...and the more I think about it, I am inclined to agree that such a thing might indeed be happening.

 

After reaching Silence, and emptiness, the practitioner becomes aware of that which doesn't change and is eternal. Bruce Frantzis' books on Water Meditation have very profound description of this process. In the Yogic world, this realization is the discovery of the aatman (the true Self). After this juncture, it is only a matter of time before aatman realizes it's unity with everything else -- therefore Brahman.

 

P.S. I was going to use the terms Te and Tao, since in the school I study in, Te is not a moral/psycho-ethical construct as is usually understood, but actually the rediscovery of and the completion of the energetic aspect of Tao that is present in all creation. This is analogous with aatman ( te == aatman and tao == brahman)

 

I keep context switching between Yogic/Vedantic and Taoist words because one comes naturally/easily to me (Yogic/Sanskrit/Hindu) and the other is something I greatly in love with (Taoist). I understand that this will possibly cause confusion and even maybe vehement reactions in some readers...

Edited March 16, 2009 by dwai

[Stigweard]

I keep context switching between Yogic/Vedantic and Taoist words because one comes naturally/easily to me (Yogic/Sanskrit/Hindu) and the other is something I greatly in love with (Taoist). I understand that this will possibly cause confusion and even maybe vehement reactions in some readers...

 

Not at all ... words are simply the outer garments of the truth that they give form to. Those with sufficient insight will see beyond the superficialness of words and be inspired by the truth that we mutually share.

 

[goldisheavy]

but pls let me discover what intention is by myself.

 

There is no "please" about it. The only way you can understand intention is by yourself. I never say anything to the contrary. Nobody needs me to understand intention. I like to talk about it because I think I understand intention very deeply and profoundly. If it helps anyone, that's good. But whether what I say helps or not, whoever discovers the truth of intention does so by themselves.

[exorcist_1699]

Intention of course can be dropped. Without dropping the pseudo one, never can you attain the real one . The more thorough we drop the pseudo intention and the longer we persist, the easier the real one appears to us . The intervals , various status arisen during this process, are close to what Buddhists call samadhi in its different -depth forms .

 

Talented guys can enter its very core straightly , skipping those layers and trivials , at one stroke . Those talented guys are what Taoism call the Super-Te (上德) ; Precisely speaking , they do not follow the jing-qi-shen framework step by step , but go straight to the shen stage, grasp it and then return to the jing and qi aspects... a little similar to Buddhist ways...

 

Sadly , Taoists always understand the Buddhist ways yet most Buddhists , more precisely speaking , vulgar Buddhists , do not understand Taoism . Maybe this is another reason why Taoists are always so lonely ...

Edited March 16, 2009 by exorcist_1699