is zhan zhuang off the west's grid?

[Pranaman]

I have been casually searching for scientific, or experiential data related to long duration(30mins to X-hours) isometric exercises. I can't find anything. I'm curious as to if there is a reason this practice isn't common through the boxing and MMA world. I practice it, I love it, and I can see martial improvement even though I only practice it for 5 minutes a day(in horse stance, soon enough I'll have to push myself farther). In the isometric community, I found something about Jay Schroeder preaching 5 minute isometric holds. Everyone else says 10 seconds or so. So yeah, if you know of any information on this type of training, how it is useful, and what it does to your body, muscle tissue, etc.... please comment.

[sheng zhen]

Hey Pranaman, you probably read the e-book "Zhan Zhuang and the search for Wu" allready. If not, it explains all the physiological effects of Zhan Zhuang. You would probably love it!

 

Other than that I dont know of any western research on Zhan Zhuang. But I would love to see if others join in with their discoveries.

[Yuen Biao]

Hey Pranaman, you probably read the e-book "Zhan Zhuang and the search for Wu" allready. If not, it explains all the physiological effects of Zhan Zhuang. You would probably love it!

 

I'd like to read that, do you have a link?

 

I do practise Zhan Zhuang but mostly my meditation is seated. I do find it incredibly difficult to attain one position for more than a few minutes at a time; I guess it's a slow process in understanding.

[sheng zhen]

I'd like to read that, do you have a link?

 

I do practise Zhan Zhuang but mostly my meditation is seated. I do find it incredibly difficult to attain one position for more than a few minutes at a time; I guess it's a slow process in understanding.

Here is a link: http://yiquan.chinamartialarts.net/Yu-YN-ebook.html

Its a great book!

 

Yes, Zhan Zhuang is a slow process. I spent several months working my way up to 20 minutes. Now Im up and down between 20-40 minutes depending on my day-to-day energy. Nowdays, after approximately 10 minutes I get into a kind of stillness that is expressed through all muscles and cells and it feels like I can stand forever(which in reality lasts about 20 minutes )

[WhiteTiger]

Not to long ago someone posted in this forum a link to a page in english about Zhan Zhuang.

 

Its pretty good stuff... I thought it was a good read hope you enjoy the link... Zhan Zhuang.

[zanshin]

Isometric holds are sort of out of favor as found to increase strength only in a limited range of motion within 10 to 20 degrees of where the hold is performed. The cardiologists don't like them as tend to spike blood pressure quickly especially as many beginners tend to hold their breath. Practice a bit a zhan zhuang myself so not saying I'm personally against it.

 

If you really want western research scientific data, go to this link and play with your search terms and scroll thru studies, wasn't able to find much but didn't try too hard.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

 

Editted to add link

Edited March 12, 2009 by zanshin

[Jedi777]

Isometric holds are sort of out of favor as found to increase strength only in a limited range of motion within 10 to 20 degrees of where the hold is performed. The cardiologists don't like them as tend to spike blood pressure quickly especially as many beginners tend to hold their breath. Practice a bit a zhan zhuang myself so not saying I'm personally against it.

 

If you really want western research scientific data, go to this link and play with your search terms and scroll thru studies, wasn't able to find much but didn't try too hard.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

 

Editted to add link

 

If you want true info on isometrics go here! http://www.transformetrics.com/

Read this book you will learn the truth about it this book is the best out there!!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193...okstorenow16-20

Read what other say as well I have all his books!!

 

Product Description

Isometrics Power Revolution is the most comprehensive and effective Isometrics fitness and training system ever devised, created to powerfully strengthen and sculpt every muscle in the entire body without the risk of joint and spine injury or muscle tears that come with weightlifting.

The power of Isometrics training lies in being taught how to perform it correctly. Veteran strength and conditioning coach John e. Peterson shows you precisely how to use Isometrics to reshape your physique and add strength beyond your imagination without ever moving a muscle!

 

Says Peterson: I ll show you how the most effective Isometric training techniques and exercises that will help you develop lean, perfectly sculpted muscles, shed unwanted and unhealthy weight, and achieve that unmistakable youthful glow without ever having to go to a gym, lift weights, or invest in expensive equipment.

 

In Isometric Power Revolution, you ll have fingertip access to:

 

* A complete and comprehensive training program of the best Isometric exercises designed to strengthen and sculpt every muscle group in your body.

* Hundreds of clear, detailed photos showing every facet of every Isometric exercise-most of which can be performed anytime, anyplace.

* An amazing History of Isometrics that convincingly demonstrates why Isometric Contraction is the most scientifically validated approach to strength training and body sculpting.

 

About the Author

JOHN PETERSON is a lifelong fitness expert, the author of Pushing Yourself to Power, and coauthor of The Miracle Seven. He created the Transformetrics® Training System that maximizes strength and fitness as well as wellness and is the founder of Bronze Bow Publishing.

[gendao]

In the isometric community, I found something about Jay Schroeder preaching 5 minute isometric holds. Everyone else says 10 seconds or so.

Really? I thought Jay was all about doing every movement plyometrically to train explosiveness?

 

Can you post the link to that?

 

 

Personally, I'm starting to think that stillness meditation is basically a way to phase-shift frequency realms/dimensions. And may have little or nothing to with physical development.

[Squatting Monkey]

If you want true info on isometrics go here! http://www.transformetrics.com/

Read this book you will learn the truth about it this book is the best out there!!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193...okstorenow16-20

Read what other say as well I have all his books!!

 

Product Description

Isometrics Power Revolution is the most comprehensive and effective Isometrics fitness and training system ever devised, created to powerfully strengthen and sculpt every muscle in the entire body without the risk of joint and spine injury or muscle tears that come with weightlifting.

The power of Isometrics training lies in being taught how to perform it correctly. Veteran strength and conditioning coach John e. Peterson shows you precisely how to use Isometrics to reshape your physique and add strength beyond your imagination without ever moving a muscle!

 

Says Peterson: I ll show you how the most effective Isometric training techniques and exercises that will help you develop lean, perfectly sculpted muscles, shed unwanted and unhealthy weight, and achieve that unmistakable youthful glow without ever having to go to a gym, lift weights, or invest in expensive equipment.

 

In Isometric Power Revolution, you ll have fingertip access to:

 

* A complete and comprehensive training program of the best Isometric exercises designed to strengthen and sculpt every muscle group in your body.

* Hundreds of clear, detailed photos showing every facet of every Isometric exercise-most of which can be performed anytime, anyplace.

* An amazing History of Isometrics that convincingly demonstrates why Isometric Contraction is the most scientifically validated approach to strength training and body sculpting.

 

About the Author

JOHN PETERSON is a lifelong fitness expert, the author of Pushing Yourself to Power, and coauthor of The Miracle Seven. He created the Transformetrics® Training System that maximizes strength and fitness as well as wellness and is the founder of Bronze Bow Publishing.

 

 

Excellent, I've just ordered the book. Thanks for the link.

[Jedi777]

Excellent, I've just ordered the book. Thanks for the link.

fantastic you will love it

[goldisheavy]

If you like isometrics, you'll probably like dynamic tension at least as much, if not more.

 

Dynamic tension is movement under tension, kind of like dynamic isometrics. You don't use external resistance, but you build internal resistance instead, but unlike in isometric exercise, you move in that state. From my experience it has tremendous effect. It's like strength training x10 without weights. Intuitively I feel that you can learn how to lift a car without ever touching a weight or a rubber band in your life. It can be done anywhere.

 

There is one warning though -- dynamic tension tends to excite your system a lot, so you need to spend at least the same or double the time deeply relaxing after the exercise.

 

Now, with exercise like isometric horse stance, there are subtle benefits that are ignored by the physicalists. Physicalists look for things like strength, but what they don't understand is the role of psyche and expression. What isometrics develop is a sense of comfort within one's body and a relaxed comfort within exertion. Isometric exercise develops better neuro-muscular control, to use the western lingo. It may not be "strength" in the western sense, but it helps expressiveness. If you understand the role of expressiveness in life and in a fighting match, then you'll know why it's very important.

 

The problem is that training expressiveness at a subtle level is a looong time endeavor and it doesn't give obvious results right away. Some exercise give you instant benefit after even 3 days. Then you think -- aha that's good and useful. But others give benefit after 1 week, but it's very very subtle! So sensitive people notice a very subtle but important benefit, and keep going. Then after many years there is a big benefit that even insensitive people can notice too. But if a numb person tries some exercise and the subtlety of the benefit escapes them, it seems to them as if there is no benefit at all, and then, logically it makes no sense to practice that for 5 years in the hopes of there MAYBE being some benefit or maybe not, when you got this exercise right here that gave you obvious benefit after 3 days.

Edited March 12, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Jedi777]

If you like isometrics, you'll probably like dynamic tension at least as much, if not more.

 

Dynamic tension is movement under tension, kind of like dynamic isometrics. You don't use external resistance, but you build internal resistance instead, but unlike in isometric exercise, you move in that state. From my experience it has tremendous effect. It's like strength training x10 without weights. Intuitively I feel that you can learn how to lift a car without ever touching a weight or a rubber band in your life. It can be done anywhere.

 

There is one warning though -- dynamic tension tends to excite your system a lot, so you need to spend at least the same or double the time deeply relaxing after the exercise.

 

Now, with exercise like isometric horse stance, there are subtle benefits that are ignored by the physicalists. Physicalists look for things like strength, but what they don't understand is the role of psyche and expression. What isometrics develop is a sense of comfort within one's body and a relaxed comfort within exertion. Isometric exercise develops better neuro-muscular control, to use the western lingo. It may not be "strength" in the western sense, but it helps expressiveness. If you understand the role of expressiveness in life and in a fighting match, then you'll know why it's very important.

 

The problem is that training expressiveness at a subtle level is a looong time endeavor and it doesn't give obvious results right away. Some exercise give you instant benefit after even 3 days. Then you think -- aha that's good and useful. But others give benefit after 1 week, but it's very very subtle! So sensitive people notice a very subtle but important benefit, and keep going. Then after many years there is a big benefit that even insensitive people can notice too. But if a numb person tries some exercise and the subtlety of the benefit escapes them, it seems to them as if there is no benefit at all, and then, logically it makes no sense to practice that for 5 years in the hopes of there MAYBE being some benefit or maybe not, when you got this exercise right here that gave you obvious benefit after 3 days.

 

Yes dynamic tension is amazing and powerful go here and see how to master it

http://www.transformetrics.com/

[Pranaman]

Here is a link: http://yiquan.chinamartialarts.net/Yu-YN-ebook.html

Its a great book!

 

I will definitley get this.

 

http://www.transformetrics.com/

 

i'll be checking that out too.

 

thanks for the posts

[Aetherous]

Pranaman,

 

Please let us know your impressions on the zhan zhuang book.

[Pranaman]

Pranaman,

 

Please let us know your impressions on the zhan zhuang book.

 

The author, Yu Yong Nian, taught Lam Kam Chuen who has several much less expensive books on the topic, but I think they leave out the fullest extent of the practice. Yu Yong Nian is also one of the teachers of the man that I learned zhan zhuang from, I expect it to be better then LKC's books. After I have enough money I'll definitley buy it and post a review.

[goldisheavy]

Yes dynamic tension is amazing and powerful go here and see how to master it

http://www.transformetrics.com/

 

Looks interesting! Bookmarked for further investigation. I really like the Charles Atlas story, and it's nice that this site knows about him.

 

I don't need anything to "master it". If you understand the principle of dynamic tension, you can make your own exercises. If anyone here does not understand the principle from my explanation, please post so I can provide a better explanation, for free. And you can then master whatever you want, on your own, without anyone's help.

Edited March 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[rsalazar]

Interesting stuff guys.

 

This reminds me of a time I was doing simple standing years ago. I noticed a peculiar sensation after about 15 min, unrelated to any "energy flow", I noticed that after finishing I felt a lot taller and "expanded" - I also noticed I could perform certain chains of movement sequences (capoeira) in a *much* more coordinated fashion than before - these feelings were very odd for me at the time because I did not get typical "qigong sensations" when practicing, but this was unmistakable - unfortunately, I was not consistent in my practice, so I have not explored this, I may have to give it another go.

 

Also interesting to note that Toshihiko Yayama in his book Qi Healing highly recommends simple standing as a way to improve your martial arts (echoing the original purpose of dachengquan), he adds his own personal observation that after six months of practice his movement quality was greatly changed.

 

Cheers,

Rene'

[Eric23]

I'm not sure if Zhan Zhuang is isometric. I've read and have practiced Lam Kam Chuen's version of standing for a while now. It seems to me that ZZ operates under a different theory than isometrics in that you do not create tension of one body part against another. ZZ is based on relaxation. Would like to hear more about the book and what is missing from LKC's methods.

[Pranaman]

I'm not sure if Zhan Zhuang is isometric. I've read and have practiced Lam Kam Chuen's version of standing for a while now. It seems to me that ZZ operates under a different theory than isometrics in that you do not create tension of one body part against another. ZZ is based on relaxation. Would like to hear more about the book and what is missing from LKC's methods.

 

I agree with you one hundred percent. That is the definite difference. In Zhan Zhuang you don't try to reach maximum contraction like in isometrics, but as you said, work on relaxing in times that work is needed. Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai said somewhere that if you practice other martial arts, practice them through the principles of Yiquan. Who I learned ZZ from practices kung-fu, yang/chen taiji, xingyiquan, and many other arts. He most strongly believes in Yiquan and learned from a few of Wang Xiangzhai's direct students. He taught me to practice ZZ through the low horse stance, so eventually I do hit a place where I need heavy contraction to stay up. I try to relax when this happens.

 

I did not intend to say that LKC's method is incomplete by any means. From what i've experienced his method is good as it is. I have just learned in ZZ to add one "mind picture" for you to use your muscles to resist against, then add another, and another, and another, etc... using every muscle that you can, in every way you can, for every individual mental picture. This teaches you to be able to control every little muscle in your body, as well as recruiting your entire body for every action. I'd say it is a martial add-on to the already martial and health aspects of the practice. I'm just a beginner, but I feel like this is a good method.

[Squatting Monkey]

Even though they come from the same source, I think LKC's is a more health orientated practice, whilst the ZZ of the Yao brothers etc is martial. This probably accounts for the differences in approach.

[Jedi777]

No ZZ is not Isometric at all infact its relaxing and letting go as you hold the posture and let the chi do its work.

I am ordering the ebook on ZZ soon. I have the way of power video its a great tool check it out.

Peace

[Pranaman]

No ZZ is not Isometric at all infact its relaxing and letting go as you hold the posture and let the chi do its work.

I am ordering the ebook on ZZ soon. I have the way of power video its a great tool check it out.

Peace

 

my muscles are too weak to stand in low horse stance while being relaxed. My old sifu on the other hand, has strong enough muscles for the low horse stance to actually be a relaxing position to be in. For now, i'm experiencing isometrics until my muscles adapt to it, then it will be a relaxing position. Thing is, i'm supposed to let go of the isometric tension and not make a big mental deal out of the pain. I have "stand still, be fit" very good video.

[sheng zhen]

my muscles are too weak to stand in low horse stance while being relaxed. My old sifu on the other hand, has strong enough muscles for the low horse stance to actually be a relaxing position to be in. For now, i'm experiencing isometrics until my muscles adapt to it, then it will be a relaxing position. Thing is, i'm supposed to let go of the isometric tension and not make a big mental deal out of the pain. I have "stand still, be fit" very good video.

The book I linked to, ZZ and The Search of Wu, explains how the Zhan Zhuang training goes through cycles of external and internal training depending on the angle of the joints.

 

We start off with a small angle and because we are not used to it we get raised heartbeat, sweating and muscles start shaking. After some days or weeks we learn to relax in that position and we actually get a lowered heartbeat, deeper breathing and relaxation from doing ZZ in that position.

 

Then we change the angle a little bit, stand a little lower. Again we get a raised heartbeat and get tired in the muscles. And after a few weeks we again learn to relax in the position and lower our heartbeat and respiration.

 

As we continue this we get a physical workout, building muscle strength and body awareness. And at the same time we get the healing effects of meditation and relaxation.

[Eric23]

I'm a middle aged guy with bad knees and found that the wider, lower horse stance really got to them (knees). I'm not a martial artist and do ZZ as a qi gong meditation practice. For my purposes, a fairly upright, knees at hip distance works just fine.

[松永道]

If you like isometrics, you'll probably like dynamic tension at least as much, if not more.

 

Dynamic tension is movement under tension, kind of like dynamic isometrics. You don't use external resistance, but you build internal resistance instead, but unlike in isometric exercise, you move in that state. From my experience it has tremendous effect. It's like strength training x10 without weights. Intuitively I feel that you can learn how to lift a car without ever touching a weight or a rubber band in your life. It can be done anywhere.

 

There is one warning though -- dynamic tension tends to excite your system a lot, so you need to spend at least the same or double the time deeply relaxing after the exercise.

 

Good comment.

 

This method is used in many muscle tendon changing qigong forms and many other forms (including taiji) could be practiced in both a "hard" dynamic tension fashion, and a "soft" qi flow, awareness, relaxation manner. In fact, this underlying rule could be applied to nearly any form of exercise.

 

However, long term "hard" practice is very yang and will exhaust the interior and cause pockets of stagnation if practiced without uniform flow and tension. Preferably, dry off, and practice a yin method directly afterwards.