What is the value of convention?

[goldisheavy]

I am thinking a lot about the role of convention in my life. I thought maybe some of you have opinions you'd like to share, so I decided to expose some of my thinking on the topic to see what you think.

 

I am surrounded by convention everywhere I look. I cannot even fart without hitting convention. My dress. My behavior. Fully 99% of the cultural input is conventional. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad had I not felt it so lifeless and constricting to my spirit. I want to find a voice that's true on one hand, but that doesn't stem from convention on the other. Imagine living in a world where your name and face changed every 2 years. Imagine living in the world where books older than 100 years were burned? Older than 50? Older than 25? Or is it our attitude?

 

I know when I was young I took ever written word and every word spoken by anyone in a position of authority as an indisputable golden truth. It didn't occur to me that people could distort reality for personal gain. It didn't occur to me that people didn't even KNOW reality! I never thought that people just make the bullshit as they go along, and they get a big group of people to validate each other and call it "expert knowledge". The amount of times the experts have been wrong cannot be counted. Later I discovered that it was all a house of cards. That no one really knew anything. And often people that knew something were not allowed to have a voice.

 

I don't want to say that every expert is an idiot simply by having the title "expert". However, the incidence of mistakes, and worse, the kind of blind reliance and blind adherence that experts foster in society is killing our spirit. It's definitely killing my spirit. Well, it used to, but I have since emerged from that system.

 

Having experts in society encourages people to rely on each other. It's basically labor specialization. And I think labor specialization has good and bad sides to it. The good side is that you can pump out more stuff. And it really is stuff. You cannot make more spirit or more joy by having more experts. You can increase production of some gadgets though. A non-expert person can feel the same joy and bliss as an expert.

 

The concepts needed for spiritual evolution are subtle, but easy to understand. What do I mean? I mean the principles are easy to understand. It's like the game of Go (or Weiqi/Baduk). To master the implications of these simple concepts is hard, and it takes one's own effort and one's own attention to do so. Experts can explain to you the rules of Go and some principles, but they cannot explain how to become a 9th Dan player.

 

To summarize there are two main problems:

 

1. Experts are wrong a lot more times than people imagine.

2. The presence of experts creates an attitude of "suspension of critical thinking."

 

It's almost like a movie. You go into a movie and you have to suspend disbelief to enjoy it. You go to an expert, and you have to turn off your critical reasoning faculty to enjoy what the expert has to say. I don't think that's a sustainable lifestyle long-term.

 

I like free thinking people because they usually are disorganized and that makes them peaceful. People who can't think for themselves comprise what I call "drone power". They organize around some expert or group of experts, and become ditto-heads. They form powerful armies that ideologues can deploy with but a few words. Of course there are some limits to what these armies can accomplish, but having these drone-groups roam around is an unpleasant reality for me.

 

Well, I barely scratched the surface of how I feel and what I think on this topic. I think convention is dangerous in general, but our particular Earth variant of it is particularly bad.

Edited March 19, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Taiji Bum]

I like convention such as.... I like uniforms and being a part of large organizations or a just a bigger cause than myself because I like people, teamwork and the comfort of deep friendships. I like rule because I love to know where I stand. If I know where I am stamding, then I know how to get to where I am going. I also love experts but I never EVER put my total faith in them. They are just folks who have walked a path longer than me and might know things to help me out.

 

I dont fear the drones out there. I am independent in and of myself which allow me to be impartial to the whim of popular society. I am also independent enought intellectually to be part of a large organization and not lose myself or identity. I can be Catholic, go on a spiritual retreat with other Catholics and still go outside after Mass and practice Tai Chi.

 

In my opinion its not conformity or convention that seems to be your problem, but not having a stong enough sense of personal identity that causes you to fear convention or conformity.

 

....or I could be talking out my ass.

[trailmaker]

I am thinking a lot about the role of convention in my life. I thought maybe some of you have opinions you'd like to share, so I decided to expose some of my thinking on the topic to see what you think.

 

I am surrounded by convention everywhere I look. I cannot even fart without hitting convention. My dress. My behavior. Fully 99% of the cultural input is conventional. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad had I not felt it so lifeless and constricting to my spirit. I want to find a voice that's true on one hand, but that doesn't stem from convention on the other. Imagine living in a world where your name and face changed every 2 years. Imagine living in the world where books older than 100 years were burned? Older than 50? Older than 25? Or is it our attitude?

 

I know when I was young I took ever written word and every word spoken by anyone in a position of authority as an indisputable golden truth. It didn't occur to me that people could distort reality for personal gain. It didn't occur to me that people didn't even KNOW reality! I never thought that people just make the bullshit as they go along, and they get a big group of people to validate each other and call it "expert knowledge". The amount of times the experts have been wrong cannot be counted. Later I discovered that it was all a house of cards. That no one really knew anything. And often people that knew something were not allowed to have a voice.

 

I don't want to say that every expert is an idiot simply by having the title "expert". However, the incidence of mistakes, and worse, the kind of blind reliance and blind adherence that experts foster in society is killing our spirit. It's definitely killing my spirit. Well, it used to, but I have since emerged from that system.

 

Having experts in society encourages people to rely on each other. It's basically labor specialization. And I think labor specialization has good and bad sides to it. The good side is that you can pump out more stuff. And it really is stuff. You cannot make more spirit or more joy by having more experts. You can increase production of some gadgets though. A non-expert person can feel the same joy and bliss as an expert.

 

The concepts needed for spiritual evolution are subtle, but easy to understand. What do I mean? I mean the principles are easy to understand. It's like the game of Go (or Weiqi/Baduk). To master the implications of these simple concepts is hard, and it takes one's own effort and one's own attention to do so. Experts can explain to you the rules of Go and some principles, but they cannot explain how to become a 9th Dan player.

 

To summarize there are two main problems:

 

1. Experts are wrong a lot more times than people imagine.

2. The presence of experts creates an attitude of "suspension of critical thinking."

 

It's almost like a movie. You go into a movie and you have to suspend disbelief to enjoy it. You go to an expert, and you have to turn off your critical reasoning faculty to enjoy what the expert has to say. I don't think that's a sustainable lifestyle long-term.

 

I like free thinking people because they usually are disorganized and that makes them peaceful. People who can't think for themselves comprise what I call "drone power". They organize around some expert or group of experts, and become ditto-heads. They form powerful armies that ideologues can deploy with but a few words. Of course there are some limits to what these armies can accomplish, but having these drone-groups roam around is an unpleasant reality for me.

 

Well, I barely scratched the surface of how I feel and what I think on this topic. I think convention is dangerous in general, but our particular Earth variant of it is particularly bad.

 

 

yes, always did prefer 'specialist' to 'expert'.

[Lantsberger]

Just a quick thing or 2 to add. It is a nice coincidence that this is very similar to some things I have been thinking about lately.

 

I think many in the West project cultural rebellion into Eastern philosophies.

 

I think that there are some serious differences in semantic that make all the difference in this discussion.

 

Consider how I see the following:

 

Convention: Computer keyboards are arranged so that the hammers that move the keys do not get stuck against each other........like on old manual typewriters.

 

Custom: "Hi, how are you?" "I am fine." ---although my dog was just run over, and my mom was just diagnosed with some horrible disease.

 

Tradition: Common Law, Development of Human Rights and World Culture and literature. Tradition is respecting another person's opinion, even if he is your grandfather some generations ago.....or Plato, Thomas Aquanis, or Lao Tzu. Likewise, democracy is respecting another person's opinion, even if he is your janitor.

 

It is interesting that Darin and I are most likely the most "Catholic" of the Taoist folks on this board and both come down in kind of the same ideas.

[seadog]

In many cases I Am all for experts.

I certainly wouldn't let someone who knew nothing about construction build a house for me.

My job in agroforestry entails I have to know how to use a chainsaw.I would not work with someone who wasn't what I consider at the very least competent with a chainsaw and the knowledge of how to fall a tree. It would be dangerous and foolish to let someone who is not exprienced do the work that requires a great amount of training.

 

We as humans rely upon one another daily. Yes we all make mistakes expert or otherwise and it is this fallability that helps us to grow both as individuals and as a society as a whole. I for one am very appreciative of the learning and ability of others and strangely enough the greatest lessons I have learned have been from those society considers to be the least educated.

 

I have not met a single person who I would consider to be conventional.

Sometimes its more instructive to lend a helping hand then it is to kick against the pricks.

[KoolAid900]

Quote:

 

"In my opinion its not conformity or convention that seems to be your problem, but not having a stong enough sense of personal identity that causes you to fear convention or conformity."

 

 

I can totally relate to this. This is something I have just begun to grow out of, weakness or fear of stnading on my own. I tell you it is a truly liberating feeling, the "conformed mass" no longer has the power to define who I am. I define it.

 

However, that being said, there is still of lot of subtle exchange of energy, which most people are not aware of, that goes on between people. "Nice" people seems especially sensitive to this as they unconsciously give away energy to others, or willing take others negative energy, even when they cannot handle that giving or taking. This can result in easily manipulation, or being easily overwhelmed, or frequent change of feelings, views, thoughts, etc. depending on the company kept. Just my 2 cents

[trailmaker]

I am thinking a lot about the role of convention in my life. I thought maybe some of you have opinions you'd like to share, so I decided to expose some of my thinking on the topic to see what you think.

 

I am surrounded by convention everywhere I look. I cannot even fart without hitting convention. My dress. My behavior. Fully 99% of the cultural input is conventional. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad had I not felt it so lifeless and constricting to my spirit. I want to find a voice that's true on one hand, but that doesn't stem from convention on the other. Imagine living in a world where your name and face changed every 2 years. Imagine living in the world where books older than 100 years were burned? Older than 50? Older than 25? Or is it our attitude?

 

I know when I was young I took ever written word and every word spoken by anyone in a position of authority as an indisputable golden truth. It didn't occur to me that people could distort reality for personal gain. It didn't occur to me that people didn't even KNOW reality! I never thought that people just make the bullshit as they go along, and they get a big group of people to validate each other and call it "expert knowledge". The amount of times the experts have been wrong cannot be counted. Later I discovered that it was all a house of cards. That no one really knew anything. And often people that knew something were not allowed to have a voice.

 

I don't want to say that every expert is an idiot simply by having the title "expert". However, the incidence of mistakes, and worse, the kind of blind reliance and blind adherence that experts foster in society is killing our spirit. It's definitely killing my spirit. Well, it used to, but I have since emerged from that system.

 

Having experts in society encourages people to rely on each other. It's basically labor specialization. And I think labor specialization has good and bad sides to it. The good side is that you can pump out more stuff. And it really is stuff. You cannot make more spirit or more joy by having more experts. You can increase production of some gadgets though. A non-expert person can feel the same joy and bliss as an expert.

 

The concepts needed for spiritual evolution are subtle, but easy to understand. What do I mean? I mean the principles are easy to understand. It's like the game of Go (or Weiqi/Baduk). To master the implications of these simple concepts is hard, and it takes one's own effort and one's own attention to do so. Experts can explain to you the rules of Go and some principles, but they cannot explain how to become a 9th Dan player.

 

To summarize there are two main problems:

 

1. Experts are wrong a lot more times than people imagine.

2. The presence of experts creates an attitude of "suspension of critical thinking."

 

It's almost like a movie. You go into a movie and you have to suspend disbelief to enjoy it. You go to an expert, and you have to turn off your critical reasoning faculty to enjoy what the expert has to say. I don't think that's a sustainable lifestyle long-term.

 

I like free thinking people because they usually are disorganized and that makes them peaceful. People who can't think for themselves comprise what I call "drone power". They organize around some expert or group of experts, and become ditto-heads. They form powerful armies that ideologues can deploy with but a few words. Of course there are some limits to what these armies can accomplish, but having these drone-groups roam around is an unpleasant reality for me.

 

Well, I barely scratched the surface of how I feel and what I think on this topic. I think convention is dangerous in general, but our particular Earth variant of it is particularly bad.

 

 

"convention is the safeguard of society and also its potential executioner." don't remember who said this,

but its easy to think of extensions of these metaphors in terms of taoist paradigms, and certainly explicit

in your essay.

[zanshin]

It's spring and I'm chafing against convention lately myself. Not sure why I am doing things like my taxes, making small talk with people and trying to cook healthy meals, I want to fly kites, blurt out the crazy things I think of and eat ice cream for dinner. Not sure why my 7 year old has to learn grammar and spelling words and play organized sports, why can't he just go play. I do like uniforms though because I'd rather not try to pick out little outfits for myself. Sure there's some quirky variations but the role of adult pretty standard and preset. Most people maybe not drones, but we do have a herd mentality, we might want to be a little different but we still want to fit in and be accepted. I do want to be a free thinker- how about you? Is it okay if I do that?

 

I don't dislike experts, I think we have a mentality that experts should be infallible so then the experts conform to that so they don't lose their expert status. Doctors have to look things up lots of the time, can't memorize everything, but you won't see them admit to it or look something up in front of a patient. Our experts are often too distant and specialized and with technology just getting worse, I could probably learn the basics of chess or Go from a neighbor down the street, but I have access to a book by the best in the world- which would I get more out of spending an hour or two with? Maybe I can get a video about using a chainsaw, then I'll buy one and head for the woods.

 

I don't know if I really agree with you goldisheavy, but I don't disagree with you either so it's okay, but what do you care what the rest of the herd thinks anyway, but then you must care since you asked the question.

[Mal]