Yeshe Lama Thogal teachings

[ralis]

Does anyone own a copy of "Yeshe Lama" thogal teachings? The cost is 85.00. However, if these teachings are already available in other texts, I will not buy it. I already own "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and "Dalai Lama's Secret Temple". The price is ridiculously high!

 

ralis

[jaloo]

Does anyone own a copy of "Yeshe Lama" thogal teachings? The cost is 85.00. However, if these teachings are already available in other texts, I will not buy it. I already own "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and "Dalai Lama's Secret Temple". The price is ridiculously high!

 

ralis

 

Don't waste your money if you haven't had the transmission. I'm guessing you haven't or the $85 wouldn't be an issue.

[ralis]

jaloo,

 

I have had the transmission. Do you have it? Why should I pay that kind of money for a text. Let me ask you this, should I pay 1,000 for it? Any amount? You imply that the price is irrelevant. This Tibetan trip has become about money.

 

ralis

[goldisheavy]

jaloo,

 

I have had the transmission. Do you have it? Why should I pay that kind of money for a text. Let me ask you this, should I pay 1,000 for it? Any amount? You imply that the price is irrelevant. This Tibetan trip has become about money.

 

ralis

 

That's funny, you've had the transmission and yet you even consider buying this book. I haven't, and I wouldn't buy it, at least not right now. Why is that? Because the teachings of thogal are about breaking the world as you know it and entering into the land of magic. If you understand what they mean, you don't need a book. If your view of emptiness is well grounded, just let your senses loose. Go crazy and don't complain or seek a doctor if your heart flies out of your chest.

 

Go crazy.

 

If you're not willing to go crazy, then thogal is not for you. Thogal is for someone who is ready to depart conventional reality 100%. If you're that ready, you really don't need a book to tell you how to do it. By that time you have intimate understanding of how appearances work.

 

That's kind of what kundalini is about too, except when weird shit happens people get scared and want a "cure". The truth is -- there is no cure because there is no such thing as "normal" once you commit to a path of uninhibited appearance dynamics. Tantric practitioners are insane from a normal person's POV. And that's how it should be. If tantric people were like average joes with jobs and suits, making honest money, paying bills, they wouldn't be tantric practitioners at all, they'd be posers.

Edited March 20, 2009 by goldisheavy

[ralis]

That's funny, you've had the transmission and yet you even consider buying this book. I haven't, and I wouldn't buy it, at least not right now. Why is that? Because the teachings of thogal are about breaking the world as you know it and entering into the land of magic. If you understand what they mean, you don't need a book. If your view of emptiness is well grounded, just let your senses loose. Go crazy and don't complain or seek a doctor if your heart flies out of your chest.

 

Go crazy.

 

If you're not willing to go crazy, then thogal is not for you. Thogal is for someone who is ready to depart conventional reality 100%. If you're that ready, you really don't need a book to tell you how to do it. By that time you have intimate understanding of how appearances work.

 

That's kind of what kundalini is about too, except when weird shit happens people get scared and want a "cure". The truth is -- there is no cure because there is no such thing as "normal" once you commit to a path of uninhibited appearance dynamics. Tantric practitioners are insane from a normal person's POV. And that's how it should be. If tantric people were like average joes with jobs and suits, making honest money, paying bills, they wouldn't be tantric practitioners at all, they'd be posers.

 

Interesting point. I am not certain thogal is the end of things. Namkai Norbu and his son Yeshe both did Rainbow bodies in their last lifetime. Maybe one becomes more plastic.

 

 

ralis

[jaloo]

jaloo,

 

I have had the transmission. Do you have it? Why should I pay that kind of money for a text. Let me ask you this, should I pay 1,000 for it? Any amount? You imply that the price is irrelevant. This Tibetan trip has become about money.

 

ralis

 

Shouldn't have bothered posting quite honestly. Debating about thogal is pointless.

 

Talk to your root lama or to the teacher who gave you the transmission for the Yeshe Lama text. They will help you determine if it will be of use to you.

 

Best wishes on your path.

Edited March 20, 2009 by jaloo

[Gerard]

Does anyone own a copy of "Yeshe Lama" thogal teachings?...

 

Have you taken a look at these?

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-h...or=Lama%20Yeshe

 

http://www.rangjung.com/rootfiles/restricted.htm

 

Initiation is mandatory for what you are after.

 

 

Good luck.

Edited March 20, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[ralis]

Have you taken a look at these?

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-h...or=Lama%20Yeshe

 

http://www.rangjung.com/rootfiles/restricted.htm

 

Initiation is mandatory for what you are after.

Good luck.

 

 

Your point?

 

ralis

[Gerard]

Very simple: help you.

[ralis]

Very simple: help you.

 

I own most of those books, including the restricted ones. In what way are you helping me? Seems as though your statement assumes a lot.

 

ralis

Edited March 20, 2009 by ralis

[ralis]

I started this post to find out what similarities there are between three different books. Instead of someone wanting to discuss this issue, I am given advice. Why is that? Did any of you bother to read my initial post?

 

 

ralis

[contrivedname!]

I started this post to find out what similarities there are between three different books. Instead of someone wanting to discuss this issue, I am given advice. Why is that? Did any of you bother to read my initial post?

ralis

 

i wouldnt have posted if you hadnt asked these last questions, but i would like to answer you question with zhuangzi "by standing beside the river ho". it is curious how that kind of advice seems to be popular in this regard, when folks want to discuss something they are told to get a transmission or ask a teacher or something, what good does this do?

[ralis]

i wouldnt have posted if you hadnt asked these last questions, but i would like to answer you question with zhuangzi "by standing beside the river ho". it is curious how that kind of advice seems to be popular in this regard, when folks want to discuss something they are told to get a transmission or ask a teacher or something, what good does this do?

 

You are absolutely right! There seems to be a certain arrogance among some practitioners these days. They react from fear or some misguided emotion.

 

 

ralis

[Aetherous]

As an outsider to Tibetan stuff I'm curious...what is the reason for the book being for insiders only? Are the practices dangerous for someone without the proper foundation of training? Or would it just not work without the foundation? Or what?

[ralis]

As an outsider to Tibetan stuff I'm curious...what is the reason for the book being for insiders only? Are the practices dangerous for someone without the proper foundation of training? Or would it just not work without the foundation? Or what?

 

 

The reason comes from the monasteries ruling Tibet for 800 yrs. Tibet was a feudalistic theocracy. The poor were kept ignorant with superstitious beliefs. The propaganda (brainwashing) was that if a teaching was acquired outside of the religious venue, one would acquire bad karma, hell realms etc. This is no different than the European dark ages.

 

It is a known fact that most if not all of the Tibetan teachings were acquired from India, China, Mongolia and some areas around Afghanistan. However, the Lamas claim absolute knowledge and sole authority, directly from the enlightened God realms. Is this any different than Papal authoritarian claims of absolute power from God? The deference to a higher cause always leads to abuse, secrecy and acquisition of more power.

 

What I am against is the undermining of personal judgment in favor of joining the mindless collective. I live in Santa Fe NM and there are a lot of Tibetan wannabes that have sublimated their better judgment in favor of doing what they are told.

 

 

ralis

[Pero]

As an outsider to Tibetan stuff I'm curious...what is the reason for the book being for insiders only? Are the practices dangerous for someone without the proper foundation of training?

Yes.

 

Or would it just not work without the foundation?

Yes.

[goldisheavy]

Interesting point. I am not certain thogal is the end of things. Namkai Norbu and his son Yeshe both did Rainbow bodies in their last lifetime. Maybe one becomes more plastic.

ralis

 

You don't understand then. If you do thogal, your ordinary world appearance will be gone. You won't have anything called "ordinary" in your life. Namkai Norbu talks like a hot potato, and he's a good guy, and I like him, but he was also very afraid to climb over a tantra that was written in the stone, because he was afraid to offend it. That means he's not quite ready for thogal. This was in JUST THIS lifetime for him.

 

If you think appearances have even the tiniest amount of truth and power, then the demons and nasty things that can appear from thogal would be so scary, the person would lose their mind easily. That's because during thogal the mind is made much looser, and all kinds of appearances that used to be blocked, float up. This is fun and joy and bliss if you are ready, but it's madness if you're not ready. If you have anyone on this planet you are attached to, and if you're attached to belonging to the human race, then doing thogal is not recommended. It's when this world has nothing for you, and you are totally done here, then you can melt it all away and enter into a new vision. By "this world" I don't mean this particular world, but I mean a way of life within structured appearances.

 

In reality there is no such thing as a demon, but then in reality there is no such thing as a CEO or a police officer. Now, if CEO tells you he'll fire you, are you scared? If cops aim guns at you, are you intimidated? If you answer yes, don't do thogal. Try to transcend CEOs, Gurus, cops and so forth of this appearance here, and then play with wilder appearances. If you think CEO is damn imposing and impressive and if you think Gurus are damn authoritative, then the demons that can be unleashed by a looser mind will make quick work of you. On the other hand, if you can rise above appearances, then thogal is entry into total freedom. Thogal is like pulling out your baby tooth that's already just hanging by a thread. If that tooth is not hanging by a thread and you pull it too early, it will hurt, you might chip the tooth, etc.

 

Does anyone own a copy of "Yeshe Lama" thogal teachings? The cost is 85.00. However, if these teachings are already available in other texts, I will not buy it. I already own "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" and "Dalai Lama's Secret Temple". The price is ridiculously high!

 

ralis

 

Ok, to return back to the issue, the price doesn't matter. If you are ready for thogal, you're exiting this Earth appearance. You're moving out of this reality. Price is irrelevant. You'll steal it if you must. You'll cook your Guru and eat him if that's what you must do. In reality if you are ready for thogal, you don't need a book to tell you. By the time you are ready, you don't need to pay 1 cent for it. YOU WILL KNOW IN YOUR BONES what to do. You won't need a book or Guru or initiation at all.

 

So if you're complaining about the price, then just don't worry about it. Just don't buy it. Thogal is not for you. But you can still discuss it. Why don't you post what you know about thogal, then post your question and let's discuss those questions. So far your only concern is the price of a book.

Edited March 20, 2009 by goldisheavy

[froggie]

You don't understand then. If you do thogal, your ordinary world appearance will be gone. You won't have anything called "ordinary" in your life. Namkai Norbu talks like a hot potato, and he's a good guy, and I like him, but he was also very afraid to climb over a tantra that was written in the stone, because he was afraid to offend it. That means he's not quite ready for thogal. This was in JUST THIS lifetime for him.

 

Just wanted to see what you are talking about.

and bring my 'findings' back around

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Namk...rbu+&emb=0#

[Sunya]

The reason comes from the monasteries ruling Tibet for 800 yrs. Tibet was a feudalistic theocracy. The poor were kept ignorant with superstitious beliefs. The propaganda (brainwashing) was that if a teaching was acquired outside of the religious venue, one would acquire bad karma, hell realms etc. This is no different than the European dark ages.

 

It is a known fact that most if not all of the Tibetan teachings were acquired from India, China, Mongolia and some areas around Afghanistan. However, the Lamas claim absolute knowledge and sole authority, directly from the enlightened God realms. Is this any different than Papal authoritarian claims of absolute power from God? The deference to a higher cause always leads to abuse, secrecy and acquisition of more power.

 

ralis

 

It's really a bit more complicated than this.. talk to some advanced practitioners, talk to some teachers. This has nothing to do with power. Like Gold said, Thogal is a very powerful, advanced, and perception altering practice. You seem to share the same mentality as Tim Leary did, Let's give LSD to everyone because its so amazing, not realizing that not everyone is ready.

 

This is the information age, we expect everything to be out in the open and dissected, properly categorized, organized, and compartmentalized. Secrecy scares us, so we automatically assume that this secrecy is negative, and the people behind it are doing it for their own gain, not ours.

 

Namkai Norbu talks like a hot potato, and he's a good guy, and I like him, but he was also very afraid to climb over a tantra that was written in the stone, because he was afraid to offend it. That means he's not quite ready for thogal. This was in JUST THIS lifetime for him.

 

 

 

Gold, what are you talking about exactly? climb over a tantra that was written in the stone?

 

if you're talking about Tantra being part of Namkhai Norbu's teachings, then I think I can comment on this, as I've wondered the same thing. i've spoken with advanced students of Norbu, and listened to a webcast where he said that direct introduction and Guru Yoga (connecting with mind essence of Guru to pull you into your own nature) is all you need, theoretically. But we're all different, and this won't work for everyone. so Tantra is taught as a supplement. if you enter Rigpa right away, then obviously you are a ripe practitioner and will receive high teachings (trekchod followed by thogal), but if not then you gotta get real and do some purification. the Direct path of working with awareness is very difficult for many people, so other practices are given. you're given a toolset and use what works for you.

Edited May 10, 2009 by mikaelz

[kadak]

Edited July 18, 2009 by kadak

[JustARandomPanda]

it is curious how that kind of advice seems to be popular in this regard, when folks want to discuss something they are told to get a transmission or ask a teacher or something, what good does this do?

 

 

Also for some of us who are involuntarily long term unemployed getting a teacher is not an option. It is frustrating and depressing to keep reading that *this* or *that* practice is out of reach without a teacher.

Edited July 18, 2009 by SereneBlue

[kadak]

Also for some of us who are involuntarily long term unemployed getting a teacher is not an option. It is frustrating and depressing to keep reading that *this* or *that* practice is out of reach without a teacher.

 

And what is preventing you from trying on your own ? Why do you believe other people ? All gurus have hidden agendas (a quote from Dzongsar Khyentse), and anyway they're not in your place, you cannot be sure of anything unless you try it. That's something I learned from practice, at least. Someone with strong will and real desire will try, no matter what gurus say. All these practices are available in public books.

I began practicing tummo without any transmission, 3 hours a day. 9 months later, a 1 week retreat didn't change anything in my practice.

I don't say that anyone has to do like me. I just say that nothing can stop a serious practicioner. And if you really need a transmission, you will get it in a dream, it is aknowledged in tibetan tradition.

Now the question is : who really wants to practice ? It is much easier to do nothing because others say we shouldn't do this or that, than taking one's own decisions and be responsible for our failures. If we had a proper transmission, maybe we think we can blame the guru. But anyway, even with proper transmission, people don't practice (I'm speaking of tantras and dzogchen). So the problem is not the transmission, it is the practice.

[JustARandomPanda]

Our perception depends on our channels, and it doesn't shatter easily, unless our channels break apart.

I've found that many westerners have mental issue with practices, not because of the practices, but because their channels are weak.

 

What channels would these be?

[kadak]

What channels would these be?

Our subtle body is made of very small channels, texts say 72 000 or more. In people like us, westerners, they've become very weak because of our way of life.

[JustARandomPanda]

Our subtle body is made of very small channels, texts say 72 000 or more. In people like us, westerners, they've become very weak because of our way of life.

 

Weak because we're taught not to believe in their existence? Or weak because most people don't bother with the spiritual except as a few yearly (or less) rituals? Or weak because as a nation we're getting fatter and less physically active? Why do non-Westerners have stronger channels? Is Western society really that degenerated? (shades of Julius Evola!)

 

Do strong channels = healthy - necessary and sufficient - or is that only one among other conditions needed to not be weak? How exactly is a person with strong channels different from someone who has weak ones?

 

Hmm... I wonder if someone like the author of this article who denies the existence of Qi has naturally strong channels?

Edited July 19, 2009 by SereneBlue