Yeshe Lama Thogal teachings

[kadak]

I am educated in quite a bit about the history of all world religions. I've read through different bible versions, the dead sea scrolls, the nag hammadi library and had many different level's of experiences through the reads. I've read the texts of Miester Eckhart, St. Theresa of Avila and Lesuiex. St Francis of Assisi of which many texts I've read and have a deep connection to, though the realization is not as subtle as Buddhist realization. I've read Hildegard Van Begen, St. John of the Cross and so many more lesser known mystics from Europe. (...)But, the intuitive understanding of dependent co-arising transcends the substantialist one'ess of monism.

 

You just missed Thomas Aquinas, especially the Summa Theologica. He explains within it that the "substances" in divine essence don't subside by themselves, but only by their relashionships to others. But some of these relations are subsistent, as between the Father Son and Holy spirit. So, even the 3 divine persons have no existence by themselves, but only through the others. Incredible, no ?

So, what christians call "substance" is not what buddhists call "substance". For a christian, substance is lacking inherent existence.

When one studies a new tradition, one should not apply the definitions and classifications of another tradition, but redefine everything from the inside. The same words don't have the same meaning.

 

Spend more time questioning your own beliefs and perceptions as well as your proverbial karmic mirror that is the universe you see and experience. As well... what happens to you when someone questions yours?

 

I discover wonderful things. In order to question my own beliefs, I study/practice different traditions. I've studied/practiced buddhism, hinduism and christianism, and I'm still doing. I've taken refuge and many buddhist initiations, I've taken many darshans and my root guru is Amma, and I sometimes go to christian communion. All traditions are a different expression of "what is", and I love all of them, because all of them are a different expression of divine love. I'm feel home in a church, in a temple, or in a Gompa, that's the same for me. Now I'm interested by taoism to complete my understanding/experience, and I just bought a wonderful book "measuring meditation", thanks to this forum.

[Vajrahridaya]

Nice.

 

Vajrahridaya, I'm interested in what you know of jalus. Would you be willing to share?

 

Hi Scotty,

 

Thank you... pranams.

 

Um, well... what to share? If you read Crystal and the Way of Light. That's an awesome book with tons of information compressed into a short volume. You'll find many answers there if you read the details and contemplate them.

 

Jalus is deeply compassionate, as it actually dissolves one's physical karmas into the radiance's of one's own clear and luminous mind nature, the empty nature of one's beginning-less karmas, so one's Nirmanakaya can stay manifest on a level that is very connected to those with physical awareness and it's easier to manifest for beings spontaneously in a way that they can perceive from this realization than from the Sambhogakaya which takes high realization to have direct contact with. Of course, if one realizes the Dharmakaya, one can manifest many Nirmanakayas from the Sambhogakaya according to the way one's personal infinite history has been transformed to merit through selfless realization and selfless offering throughout one's practice carrier as a Bodhisattva.

 

Crystal and the Way of Light is a very good start to understanding the Jalus. Thanks for your query Scotty! That shows compassion and merit to even wish to know such things.

 

Om Ah Hum!

 

if he learned how to relate his insights better to people he would be a truly great bodhisattva.

 

Ah... that's the work my man... that's the work. I do agree, I seem to be misunderstood plenty, which is my fault for not being able to relate more clearly or with more perfect wording. Like people extrapolate a meaning from my words that were not even intentionally conveyed, and I don't mean necessarily in a positive sense of seeing something beneficial. Yes, hopefully my coming school carrier will help me lots, and I have a feeling it will.

 

I'm sure it will offer a different type of discipline that I've not yet partook of.

[Vajrahridaya]

You just missed Thomas Aquinas, especially the Summa Theologica. He explains within it that the "substances" in divine essence don't subside by themselves, but only by their relashionships to others. But some of these relations are subsistent, as between the Father Son and Holy spirit. So, even the 3 divine persons have no existence by themselves, but only through the others. Incredible, no ?

So, what christians call "substance" is not what buddhists call "substance". For a christian, substance is lacking inherent existence.

 

 

Yes, I've read Thomas Aquinas and enjoy him. The Buddha said his Bodhisattvas would manifest in different traditions in order to apply clarity through that cultural paradigm of teaching. That's fine and good. But, it's still clear that on earth, in all practical senses, it's Buddhism from the first turning to Dzogchen that has the most clarity, availability of methodology, vastness of available written down wisdom teachings. Skipping of vague parables that can be understood in so many different ways and going straight for the jugular of what the actual issue's are and the way to alleviate them. Try to find through Thomas Aquinas some real methodology that leads to the Jalus. Try to find some real teachings on the stages of the path to realization of the nature of all things as being without inherent identity? It's not that other teachings aren't good, but that other teachings just are not as clear from beginning to end. Also the methodology generally is not there or available anymore, etc.

 

When one studies a new tradition, one should not apply the definitions and classifications of another tradition, but redefine everything from the inside. The same words don't have the same meaning.

 

Yes, I know. I've had this very discussion many times many years ago.

 

I discover wonderful things. In order to question my own beliefs, I study/practice different traditions. I've studied/practiced buddhism, hinduism and christianism, and I'm still doing. I've taken refuge and many buddhist initiations, I've taken many darshans and my root guru is Amma, and I sometimes go to christian communion. All traditions are a different expression of "what is", and I love all of them, because all of them are a different expression of divine love. I'm feel home in a church, in a temple, or in a Gompa, that's the same for me. Now I'm interested by taoism to complete my understanding/experience, and I just bought a wonderful book "measuring meditation", thanks to this forum.

 

Yes, I've been hugged by Amma a few times. She's deep, most likely a long lived God born into flesh. She serves a good purpose on Earth that's worthy of many love tears. I wouldn't make her my root Guru though, as she doesn't have methodology that leads to how to integrate Love into Jalus. Unless your getting some sort of secret teachings in Dream Yoga? She also teaches of some "Divine Will" (cosmic movement with one purpose) behind everything that we can all rely on and surrender to. She believes and teaches that all things come from one source, or one essential substance that is beyond concepts. Some non-conceptual ultimate, which of course Nagarjuna warns us the pitfalls of.

 

This subtle seed concept will just end up re-absorbing you blissfully at the end of a cosmic eon. Thinking you are going back to the, "one", but merely to be re-expressed ignorantly according to your karmic potentialities in the next cosmic eon, that you have hidden in this non-conceptual "basis of all" that you think is the absolute Truth, and Source of all existence. In the next cosmic eon, maybe if your karmas are aligned as such because of intense identity with a God in this cosmic eon, you will be as a long lived God that comes to people in blissful dreams and starts Theistic religions telling the person that your love is the way and the light, and that you are in and through all beings, the supreme source of all things. Maybe you'll even incarnate physically from time to time to tell people how much you are the source of all beings and that you love all beings, and that you are the consciousness of all consciousness'.

 

I do have many memories.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[JustARandomPanda]

What a weird turn this thread has taken from Ralis's question. All this My-Realization-is-Higher-than-Yours...going on.

 

how...

 

curious

 

Edited July 21, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Vajrahridaya]

What a weird turn this thread has taken from Ralis's question. All this My-Realization-is-Higher-than-Yours...going on.

 

how...

 

curious

 

 

It's good to be curious. One's curiosity should mirror onto itself through the tools and insights gleamed seemingly from without.

 

If you look at Ralis' history he has a history of presumption which is why it became a kind of tough love scenario.

 

Also, if you actually read the points and not get caught up in the ego's, you may in fact see something other than the dross in the gold.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[kadak]

It's not that other teachings aren't good, but that other teachings just are not as clear from beginning to end. Also the methodology generally is not there or available anymore, etc.

 

That's not what you were saying before.

Now, I'm OK, christianism is less clear, but it has other advantages. The methodology is not as good for high-level practicioners;but it is very interesting though. I understand recently that all this story of Trinity was exactly describing the relationships between nirmanakaya, sambhogakaya and dharmakaya. And the relationships with have with others, and ourselves.

For example, they say that the love between father and son brings up a certain kind of spiritual energy.

In the mass, for example, the priest can be somehow the father, the people are the son, and their meeting "conjures up" the holy spirit, which is the spiritual energy. And the Christ said "when two meet in my name, I will be there" (I don't know the exact quote in english). What will be there, will rather be the holy spirit, but anyway that's a model for human relationships. When you have a true friend, spiritual energy you don't have separately can emerge. (That's how "union" is working, in tantras)

From this I theorized that many people could give darshan (manifest the holy spirit), if everybody is OK. Take a group of friends, in this group, take one with no special realization but some channelling qualities, let's say he will be the father (in our experience that was not me). The others agree to be the sons. The father shall give darshan, and the others receive it.

As strange as it may be, it works. That's how so many fake gurus are able to give real darshan, and that's an interesting quality of human relationships. Some of our friends can actually give real darshan, and at a lesser level, friendship can really bring something new. Many practicioners isolate themselves not knowing this.

I could never discover this with the buddhist modelization because it is not clear enough, on this particulary topic.

 

Anyway my point is to tell than each tradition has special and useful qualities.

[ralis]

It's good to be curious. One's curiosity should mirror onto itself through the tools and insights gleamed seemingly from without.

 

If you look at Ralis' history he has a history of presumption which is why it became a kind of tough love scenario.

 

Also, if you actually read the points and not get caught up in the ego's, you may in fact see something other than the dross in the gold.

 

Tough love? Lol!! You fall short of the Buddhist ideal of compassion, to state it aptly. I started out by asking a question and what I receive is your heroic defense of your investment in your own anthropocentric point of view. Then you judge me as having so called bad karma for not agreeing with your point of view. You write as if you have exhausted all your karma! I doubt it!

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

That's not what you were saying before.

 

Yes, I've always said this. I don't feel that other paths lead to the same level of liberation, just higher rebirths and better karma until one can actually understand the Buddha Dharma. One can have this same understanding that you are talking about without actually delving into anything other than Buddhadharma and this is talked about as there are so many texts in Buddhadharma. But, yes, there are so many useful things throughout Samsara that if one has the right outlook can gleam wisdom from that is transcendent or grounding. My view is not black and white and is not encompassed by the few words I have spoken over the years.

 

See wisdom everywhere.

 

Tough love? Lol!! You fall short of the Buddhist ideal of compassion, to state it aptly. I started out by asking a question and what I receive is your heroic defense of your investment in your own anthropocentric point of view. Then you judge me as having so called bad karma for not agreeing with your point of view. You write as if you have exhausted all your karma! I doubt it!

ralis

 

Ralis, Ralis... So flippant.

[minkus]

Wub you all

[Gerard]

So much arguing over the net, so much tension, so much looking for answers in arduous esoteric practices that are based upon indigenous shamanic practices intertwined with Buddhism and hard to grasp for non-anchorites. Why do they all fail to look at the simplest of methods?

 

Satipatthana Vipassana Kammatthana, or Insight Meditation, the method devised by Gautama Buddha to attain Nirvana. In the Sattiphata Sutra, Gautama Buddha stated the following:

 

"This is the one and only way monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the extinguishing of suffering and grief, for walking on the path of truth, for the realization of nibbāna...."

 

 

The four satipatthana (body, feelings, mind and mental objects) are one of the seven sets of "bodhipakkhiyadhamma" (or states conducive to enlightenment) identified in many schools of Buddhism as a means for achieving enlightenment (bodhi).

 

 

An example showing how effective Vipassana (Vipashyana in Sanskrit) is:

 

*A striking example of Vipashyana was provided by a student of mine in her early twenties who had been meditating for some time. Since her late teens, she had been a devotee of "raves," dance parties held at enormous warehouses in our area, attended by literally thousands of young people. Well-known bands are engaged, the music is loud, alcohol and drugs are sometimes consumed, and the dancing goes on until dawn. The atmosphere is said to be usually "mellow" and fun, and the young folks are drawn back to the parties again and again.

 

My student was attending a rave one Saturday night and, for no apparent reason, wanted to feel the cool, the space, and the silence of the night. She left the huge warehouse where the party was happening and walked across an adjacent field onto a a hillock beyond. Turning around, she looked at the building, throbbing with music and blazing with light, packed as it was by several thousand ravers. Suddenly, without warning, it was as if her eyes were opened for the first time and she "saw" the party--so she reported--in all its naked reality.

 

She saw the tremendous desperation of the people inside, their loneliness and hunger, how they had all come there seeking to escape from their suffering. She saw how they had all become predators, preying upon one another, in a fruitless search for happiness. It was an endless game in which, she too, was involved. Overcome by the sorrow and hopelessness of the situation, she broke down and wept. She came to talk to me because, as she said, this experience had shown her something not only about raves, but about life in general, about the many things people do out of their own pain and misery. She told me that she felt, for the first time, the meaning of suffering. She saw her experience as a direct product of her meditation practice and her commitment to her spiritual path.

 

Her experience made her realize, again for the first time, that her meditation was the one anchor in her life and that the spiritual journey she had undertaken was about having her eyes opened, in perhaps shocking and painful ways, to the underpinnings of the seemingly normal, everyday world.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Indestructible-Truth...m/dp/1570621667

 

 

Good luck!

 

 

*Excerpt from: Indestructible Truth: The Living Spirituality of Tibetan Buddhism (Ray, 2002).

[goldisheavy]

it merely see's things just as they are

 

There is no such thing as "things just as they are". The whole point of the teaching on emptiness is that things don't have a certain state where they are true to themselves -- ever.

 

It's aim is Jalus

 

Completely wrong. The aim is the same as the aim of the Buddhist path itself. Light body is just a side-effect, and not a very important one. It's of course drool-worthy and cool, but it's not what really matters.

 

I know were all good people here... just you know, gaining clarity and seeing where we are not clear, ya dig?

 

Oh yea, that's exactly what is happening. You got it all figured out, cause you see "things as they are <tm>".

[minkus]

Very nice example about that lady Durkhrod, a lifechanging experience there on the spot.

 

 

I learned from practice, at least. Someone with strong will and real desire will try, no matter what gurus say.

 

If you want something hard enough, if you feel the desire in every single pore of your body for every single moment of the day.

 

It will happen.

 

Urge crawls to where it cannot go

Edited July 23, 2009 by minkus

[Gerard]

Very nice example about that lady Durkhrod, a lifechanging experience there on the spot.

 

I know, Minkus, and is is heartbreaking seeing humans not having a clue about their own suffering. There is nothing we can do but just hope one day they will understand the importance of cultivating their spirits.

 

Life is not easy.

[Vajrahridaya]

There is no such thing as "things just as they are". The whole point of the teaching on emptiness is that things don't have a certain state where they are true to themselves -- ever.

 

Ah yes, the famous goldisheavy subjective defining. If you read some more actual Buddha teachings, you'll read where he say's, seeing a mountain as a mountain and a tree as a tree. Just letting things be. It means just letting the flow... flow.

 

I'll elaborate. What I also meant is that things just as they are is that they are in fact radiance's of Rigpa, dancing inherently liberated. Ornamentations of Samantabhadra. That's things just as they are.

 

Completely wrong. The aim is the same as the aim of the Buddhist path itself. Light body is just a side-effect, and not a very important one. It's of course drool-worthy and cool, but it's not what really matters.

 

You have no idea what the Jalus is, because you have no contact with anyone who teaches the Jalus directly, or has attained the Jalus. It's a deeply compassionate realization that grants regular seekers an easier way to contact a Buddha because it takes high merit to see directly into the Sambhogakaya realm, but when one's Nirmanakaya attains the Jalus, it's like bringing the light deeper into the valley. You don't get this because you don't understand how realized ChNNR is, and you don't read his teachings. The aim of Dzogchen is in fact Jalus. Dzogchen teachers teach this, the texts teach this, and that's the way it is. One of my teachers is a Tibetan text translator who is sponsored by the Sakya lineage to just sit around, do his practices and translate texts into English, he lives in Mass. You should ask him what the Tibetan texts say, the ones that aren't published in English.

 

Jalus is the aim, because of what Jalus means. It means complete integration of one's karmic history, even on a DNA level with the state of Samantabhadra.

 

This is exactly why one needs devotion to a real lineage master as well as humility which is the opposite of the type of pride that was projected that see's ChNNR the way you see him through your flawed vision. It will take humility, service and a complete laying down of your ego in order to rectify that ailment.

 

 

 

 

 

*Excerpt from: Indestructible Truth: The Living Spirituality of Tibetan Buddhism (Ray, 2002).

 

I own this book, it's a pretty good scholarly work. But, it doesn't have any Dzogchen in it. Which is what we seemed to have been getting into talking about. Dzogchen would be the fruit of Vipassana. EDIT: My correction, it has a couple of blurps about Dzogchen without saying much.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[kadak]

The aim of Dzogchen is in fact Jalus

 

Contrary to illusory body, which is a fruit, Jalu is not a fruit but a sign.

 

The guy who says that is JL Achard, he is the great specialist of dzogchen for Bonpo and Nyingma schools.

He has published :

Bon Po Hidden Treasures: A Catalogue of Gter Ston Bde Chen Gling Pa's Collected Revelations (Brill's Tibetan Studies Library, V. 6)

 

Enlightened Rainbows: The Life and Works of Shardza Tashi Gyeltsen (Brill's Tibetan Studies Library)

and many other books.

 

So, in the eyes of a true specialist, you would just appear as ignorant as the people you call ignorant. In fact, on this issue, Goldisheavy knows better than you.

 

Or maybe you know more than Achard ? BTW, where did you publish your studies ?

 

I find ridiculous this pretense to teach everybody about Jalu (and other matters), since you're no specialist and just proved it.

 

Here on a taoist forum, it is easy to pretend to know buddhism better than anyone, but why don't you go discuss with true specialists ? http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-free.com/

The problem is that maybe you wouldn't last long as a great practicioner.

Edited July 23, 2009 by kadak

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

So, in the eyes of a true specialist, you would just appear as ignorant as the people you call ignorant. In fact, on this issue, Goldisheavy knows better than you.

 

 

 

No, he does not. ChNNR knows better than Archer, you and me, as well as Gold is Heavy. So does Namdrol who's root guru is ChNNR, who does not wish to publish anything. I never said I published anything and don't do so. Namdrol also doesn't publish anything. But, all he does is translate texts from Tibetan. It is a sign, a sign of total integration. You should read Crystal and the Way of Light. It's also a way to connect better with seekers because of the merit it takes to see directly into the Sambhogakaya realm. ChNNR said this at a public talk I attended.

 

I really don't care what Archer say's. Honestly. ChNNR is a Tibetan Dzogchen Master, both his uncle and his root Guru attained Jalus. He is a Bon scholar and historian. He's a more trustworthy source of information. Also Namdrol Malcolm is a Lappon who has done the 3 year 3 month 3 day retreat under the guidance of a retreat master. Has transmission from many, many of the most highly realized Rinpoche's and he is fluent in both spoken and textual Tibetan. He is sponsored by the Sakya lineage to translate texts.

 

So again, you can believe what you wish. I find my sources to be much more creditable.

 

 

EDIT: I lent my version of Crystal and the Way of Light out to someone in NYC. I live in Florida now, I suppose I'll have to buy a new one. But, I'd quote some pages if I could. I read that book a couple of times though. It's quite the condensed book. Michaelz I think might be able to quote some things from it?

Edited July 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

I too don't see what the big deal is about mystical phenomena such as a body of light being some end-goal. I think the goal of all Buddhist paths is to gain insight into emptiness of phenomena and non-dual nature of mind. the view is all thats important. methods do not distinguish schools as better or higher or 'more realized', though each school thinks their realization is best. a very medieval trait.

 

Rainbow body does seem like a very good tool for helping all beings, but being what it is... that doesn't make it a higher realization than the realizations gained by other Buddhist schools. using Namkhai Norbu's own definition of Total Realization: "definitive end of illusion, the end of suffering, the cessation of the vicious cycle of conditioned rebirths...all duality transcended" then all schools of Buddhism reach total realization because all schools aim for insight of emptiness.

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited July 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

in Crystal and Way of Light, Namkhai Norbu says

 

-- Body of Light (Jalu or Rainbow body) is different from the Illusory Body which is realized thigh the Higher Tantras (Illusory or Mayic Body can be equated to subtle/astral body [i think]). the Illusory Body is dependent on subtle prana of the individual, and since prana is considered to be of the relative dimension in Dzogchen, this body is not the goal.

 

-- the Body of Light is the ultimate expression of the fruit of Dzogchen

 

--"the realization of the body of light means that one is no longer in the condition of a person who is reflected in a mirror and who dualistically sees his or her own reflection in it, but one has become established in the essential condition of the mirror so that one's energy as a whole now manifests in the same way that the energy of a mirror does"

 

and he goes on to talk about how the realization of Body of Light is so one can benefit beings in a dimension of pure light but also manifest in a material body to help all beings.

 

Idk, sounds like a dualistic goal to me which shouldn't be taken too literally. imo the whole Mahayana bodhicitta ideal is meant to be method to stop self-grasping, having the wish to attain a body of light to help beings in all dimensions for eternity is wonderful if you're still stuck in a "self" mentality where you actually need to create merit and save beings that are ultimately empty and illusory anyway. who is it that is saving beings? and where are these beings?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Idk, sounds like a dualistic goal to me which shouldn't be taken too literally. imo the whole Mahayana bodhicitta ideal is meant to be method to stop self-grasping, having the wish to attain a body of light to help beings in all dimensions for eternity is wonderful if you're still stuck in a "self" mentality where you actually need to create merit and save beings that are ultimately empty and illusory anyway. who is it that is saving beings? and where are these beings?

 

It's a complete expression of non-dual realization that transcends the conceptualizing of it. It's the recognition of both the fact that there are beings and that they do not inherently exist. As well as one's self. As your realization deepens, your understanding of ChNNR's teachings will become more realized as well.

 

It's fine to have your opinion, just don't consider it true and real.

 

It's far from a dualistic realization, because to the being his or her self, it's just the fruit of realization, and to the being his or her self, he or she does not experience disappearing at all. It's coming from a space of realization that's so vastly deeper and subtler than the normal capacity that has not delved deeply into meditation, that it seems out of this world. But really, it's just the realization of things as they are.

 

What do I mean by this? I've tried to explain.

 

I won't try here, because I don't want to confuse anyone. As people seem to be reading into my words meaning that I'm not intending.

 

p.s. Thanks so much for the quotes Michaelz!

Edited July 23, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Shen Chi Jing]

[caz]

That's funny, you've had the transmission and yet you even consider buying this book. I haven't, and I wouldn't buy it, at least not right now. Why is that? Because the teachings of thogal are about breaking the world as you know it and entering into the land of magic. If you understand what they mean, you don't need a book. If your view of emptiness is well grounded, just let your senses loose. Go crazy and don't complain or seek a doctor if your heart flies out of your chest.

 

Go crazy.

 

If you're not willing to go crazy, then thogal is not for you. Thogal is for someone who is ready to depart conventional reality 100%. If you're that ready, you really don't need a book to tell you how to do it. By that time you have intimate understanding of how appearances work.

 

That's kind of what kundalini is about too, except when weird shit happens people get scared and want a "cure". The truth is -- there is no cure because there is no such thing as "normal" once you commit to a path of uninhibited appearance dynamics. Tantric practitioners are insane from a normal person's POV. And that's how it should be. If tantric people were like average joes with jobs and suits, making honest money, paying bills, they wouldn't be tantric practitioners at all, they'd be posers.

 

What is 'crazy'? Why all the contrasts?

 

Who is to say what a tantric practitioner 'should' look like? They can look like everyone else, making money or wearing suits or a homeless girl, a prostitute. Same with Dzogchen practitioners too, one can't pretend to "know" what form a practitioner comes in. Freedom and joy are not somewhere else.

 

Once in the path everything-- craziness, even magic looks extremely ordinary. Ordinary looks crazy, then it doesn't matter any more. That's when all that can possibly manifest is good for all. Then thogal happens, it just does.

 

I trust that I put out that I wanna read it (Yeshe Lama) and it will happen. Even an empowerment of any kind doesn't matter. Watch and see. I'll tell you when it comes...

Edited December 10, 2011 by caz

[caz]

http://www.amazon.com/Yeshe-Lama-Lingpas-Dzogchen-Atiyoga/dp/1502716224/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425444165&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Yeshe+lama+Keith+dolman

 

Ready or not here it comes!

Edited March 4, 2015 by caz

[idiot_stimpy]

http://www.amazon.com/Yeshe-Lama-Lingpas-Dzogchen-Atiyoga/dp/1502716224/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425444165&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Yeshe+lama+Keith+dolman

 

Ready or not here it comes!

 

Welcome back

[Jox]

I have no idea abut thogal and trekcho, ... etc ...

Would like someone explain training map of that stuff? From beginner to advanced stages ...