why money?

[LoneHaven]

[Yoda]

Personally, I don't have a problem paying for teachers any more than paying for anything else... it balances out the karma better that way, but here's a great site that has lots of info for free: advancedyogapractices.com

[LoneHaven]

Personally, I don't have a problem paying for teachers any more than paying for anything else... it balances out the karma better that way, but here's a great site that has lots of info for free: advancedyogapractices.com

Yoda,

 

Thanks for the link! It seems their domain has been shortened - here is the link that I was directed to:

www.aypsite.org

 

I don't understand how money balances out karma - but maybe I have an incorrect ideology of what karma is. I think of it as overall cause and effect - whatever action I take, there will be an overall effect from it. It terms of teacher-student, would the eventual teaching that the student will do in his/her future be enough to balance out the knowledge that was bestowed upon the student by the current teacher?

 

Maybe I am thinking way to ideological anyway though. I live in a world where money is an everyday event and yet I want to escape its grasp somehow, because it seems lacking to me. Yet I can't because in younger years I was financially inept and now owe money to others...live and learn. In terms of learning enlightenment though, it seems like money should be nowhere near the subject - again idealistically I suppose.

[Taiji Bum]

Rant Alert directed at all the people how have asked this question on Tao Bums over the years.

 

Do you want a substitute mommy or daddy to give you your spiritual food for free or do you want to be an adult and seek out answers on your own from a place of power? People who whine (and it is whining) about paying for a spiritual teachers insights seem to live in a very weak place. Gimme, gimme, gimme is all I seem to hear but the students dont want to give anything back in return so the student stands back from a place of narrowminded judgement and says.... "You should be giving this to me for free!" That is some truely arrogant and immature bullcrap. Grow up! Get out of your welfare mentality. Teachers are just people and on that note when I start my site and shill a book or two I am going to charge out-the-ass.

Edited March 28, 2009 by DarinHamel

[trailmaker]

[Yoda]

Darin,

 

Too funny!!

 

LoneHaven,

 

This has been discussed a fair bit around here. Imo, often spiritually minded people often look down on making money and can paint themselves into a corner on the topic. Ideally, money should be like breathing... not something to think a lot about.

 

If there are insufficient funds, then know that this is just another of life's little lessons. Fortunately, simply meditating a few times a day will help. According to Mak Tin Si, don't use a black wallet, do good deeds, be nice to your parents, and eat hot, slow cooked food at home as much as possible, and clean your home often are tips to get more yangy/cash friendly vibes rolling.

 

And in the meantime, start where you are and enjoy the free stuff out there. Most teachers do offer a fair amount for free for introductory purposes... Darin has some fun stuff on youtube, for instance!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[LoneHaven]

Rant Alert directed at all the people how have asked this question on Tao Bums over the years.

 

Do you want a substitute mommy or daddy to give you your spiritual food for free or do you want to be an adult and seek out answers on your own from a place of power? People who whine (and it is whining) about paying for a spiritual teachers insights seem to live in a very weak place. Gimme, gimme, gimme is all I seem to hear but the students dont want to give anything back in return so the student stands back from a place of narrowminded judgement and says.... "You should be giving this to me for free!" That is some truely arrogant and immature bullcrap. Grow up! Get of your welfare mentality. Teachers are just people and on that note when I start my site and shill a book or two I am going to charge out-the-ass.

I did do a search for previous posts like this and only found results with (...) in the subject line - so I created this. Sorry for the duplication.

 

I do wish to seek out answers on my own but not from power - where did that arise? I watched your videos and am glad that you made it so far - but having gone so far how can you be so attached to money and such anger-inducing responses, as your post above? 'I have reached enlightenment so I will charge-out-the-ass?' Really? That is what it is all for? So the Golden Flower becomes the Golden Purse - great, have at it.

 

Some things are beyond money. One would not charge money in exchange for love, for his/her heart. Enlightenment is not on the same level as a car or a college course on mathematics - it is on the same level as the heart itself. How can money be exchanged for that? I am not asking for something for free (nor have I) - I just cannot see true enlightment getting exchanged into business.

 

hi LoneHaven - re: teacher and 'what about my money?'. sounds a bit brusque.

 

maybe his rent was due - always is, right?

Yes...he had bills due...but when that was the first thing he stated after telling him I just had surgery, it turned my heart. But you are right in that he had bills since he taught out of a building he rented...thanks!

[Aetherous]

I was learning martial arts once and had to have an unexpected surgery. As soon as I was home from the hospital, I called my teacher to let him know what happened and why I was not at class. The first words from his mouth were, "what about my money?"

 

Well, that's just bad business!

 

There are many teachings and practices out there for free which are very powerful and can take you all the way to enlightenment, fulfillment and health (I really like 'awareness watching awareness meditation'). The internet is great! So is this forum...we have an opportunity to learn so much, and actually surpass many people in the past who didn't have such great resources...if we put in the practice!

 

That's really the key. Do the time. Be consistent and endure. See the results for yourself.

 

The nice thing about teachers is that they help us be consistent and endure. If we're "practice-hopping", like trying one meditation for a month or so then moving onto something new, we won't be making much progress and will always remain on the same "level". But teachers slap us on the wrist and say, "just stick with it and be a master like me." It's great motivation for the low spots, because of course us students are ego-driven, and we want to be awesome masters too!

 

I'm studying under someone right now, and thoroughly enjoying the techniques...but without her guidance I would be totally lost. I would've been practicing incorrectly from day one (for too long, too many times per day, in the wrong mood, without the right intent, etc), and even if I initially had it all right, I would err at some point because I wouldn't have someone telling me to stick with the main techniques.

 

Paying helps you value what you're learning, too. I'm in college right now, and if it was totally free for everyone, I wouldn't care to try. That was like high school. I just barely got by, and screwed around. But now I'm paying many thousands of dollars per semester, and the rest of my life depends on how I do now, so I value it a little more.

 

I guess what it all comes down to is: how much do you value attaining enlightenment? Enough to give your life for? Enough to give all of your money? Or is it worth less than 200 dollars, with which you could pay for like 3 months of cable television?

 

I'm not saying that money is necessary...but it's not totally negative. It would be nice if teachings were totally free, and sometimes they are. For instance, when you have a guru situation where the students support them. But then you get into other negative issues, like someone developing too big of an ego and taking advantage of students.

 

Pretty much any way you look at the situation, it can be negative, or it can just be the way things are. If you walked up some big mountain and found a long white bearded master who put you to the test, that would suck too.

 

[LoneHaven]

Darin,

 

Too funny!!

 

LoneHaven,

 

This has been discussed a fair bit around here. Imo, often spiritually minded people often look down on making money and can paint themselves into a corner on the topic. Ideally, money should be like breathing... not something to think a lot about.

 

If there are insufficient funds, then know that this is just another of life's little lessons. Fortunately, simply meditating a few times a day will help. According to Mak Tin Si, don't use a black wallet, do good deeds, be nice to your parents, and eat hot, slow cooked food at home as much as possible, and clean your home often are tips to get more yangy/cash friendly vibes rolling.

 

And in the meantime, start where you are and enjoy the free stuff out there. Most teachers do offer a fair amount for free for introductory purposes... Darin has some fun stuff on youtube, for instance!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

Again, sorry for the duplication - I did do a search - perhaps incorrectly though. Thanks for the words and maybe I am stuck in the corner on this one...I'll wait for it to dry and move on.

[zanshin]

you said you talked to this teacher after you had surgery. Did the surgeon charge money? Were you offended that this person would charge money, shouldn't he just be concerned about your life or good health? How could this surgeon be worried about something so meaningless to collect money and even bother with a billing department when he could dedicate more time to saving lives instead?

 

I know my martial arts teacher has become more hard core about making sure people pay rather than letting them train for free in light of bad luck stories- if no one pays how can he afford to spend time teaching and pay the rent.

[LoneHaven]

Well, that's just bad business!

 

There are many teachings and practices out there for free which are very powerful and can take you all the way to enlightenment, fulfillment and health (I really like 'awareness watching awareness meditation'). The internet is great! So is this forum...we have an opportunity to learn so much, and actually surpass many people in the past who didn't have such great resources...if we put in the practice!

 

That's really the key. Do the time. Be consistent and endure. See the results for yourself.

 

The nice thing about teachers is that they help us be consistent and endure. If we're "practice-hopping", like trying one meditation for a month or so then moving onto something new, we won't be making much progress and will always remain on the same "level". But teachers slap us on the wrist and say, "just stick with it and be a master like me." It's great motivation for the low spots, because of course us students are ego-driven, and we want to be awesome masters too!

 

I'm studying under someone right now, and thoroughly enjoying the techniques...but without her guidance I would be totally lost. I would've been practicing incorrectly from day one (for too long, too many times per day, in the wrong mood, without the right intent, etc), and even if I initially had it all right, I would err at some point because I wouldn't have someone telling me to stick with the main techniques.

 

Paying helps you value what you're learning, too. I'm in college right now, and if it was totally free for everyone, I wouldn't care to try. That was like high school. I just barely got by, and screwed around. But now I'm paying many thousands of dollars per semester, and the rest of my life depends on how I do now, so I value it a little more.

 

I guess what it all comes down to is: how much do you value attaining enlightenment? Enough to give your life for? Enough to give all of your money? Or is it worth less than 200 dollars, with which you could pay for like 3 months of cable television?

 

I'm not saying that money is necessary...but it's not totally negative. It would be nice if teachings were totally free, and sometimes they are. For instance, when you have a guru situation where the students support them. But then you get into other negative issues, like someone developing too big of an ego and taking advantage of students.

 

Pretty much any way you look at the situation, it can be negative, or it can just be the way things are. If you walked up some big mountain and found a long white bearded master who put you to the test, that would suck too.

 

Funny...perhaps I would take an electric razor with me and win the test...lol. To quote you: "Do the time. Be consistent and endure. See the results for yourself." Thanks for that.

 

you said you talked to this teacher after you had surgery. Did the surgeon charge money? Were you offended that this person would charge money, shouldn't he just be concerned about your life or good health? How could this surgeon be worried about something so meaningless to collect money and even bother with a billing department when he could dedicate more time to saving lives instead?

 

I know my martial arts teacher has become more hard core about making sure people pay rather than letting them train for free in light of bad luck stories- if no one pays how can he afford to spend time teaching and pay the rent.

Yep...surgeon got paid big time. Your point is made. I understand what you are saying, and again maybe I am too idealistic with the concept of money. I am just putting my mind in the place of a teacher. I have spent years cultivating a path and have reached enlightenment. Then I am going to turn around and charge money for seminars and retreats and the like? To me, and maybe just to me, the exchange of money for helping another grow, in spiritual terms, seems lacking. The teaching in itself is indeed priceless and worth more than any dollar value, but I cannot see how it can be priced in the first place. It is more than a college course - it is something much deeper. But your point is clear and I comprehend it, I am just stuck in my idealistic view for now.

[trailmaker]

you said you talked to this teacher after you had surgery. Did the surgeon charge money? Were you offended that this person would charge money, shouldn't he just be concerned about your life or good health? How could this surgeon be worried about something so meaningless to collect money and even bother with a billing department when he could dedicate more time to saving lives instead?

 

I know my martial arts teacher has become more hard core about making sure people pay rather than letting them train for free in light of bad luck stories- if no one pays how can he afford to spend time teaching and pay the rent.

 

 

hi zanshin et al - nice discussion. often think of john lennon's "i'd give you anything i've got for a little

peace of mind!".

[de_paradise]

Expertise and masters are hard to come by, you are lucky to find one. I dont know what kind of value calculations you make in your head, but generally the money you pay is just a token amount of the value. Look at KAP for example, it should make you giggle and fall off your chair at how much you get for so little. Perhaps some people just dont understand what they are getting, so they balk.

 

I have a friend who thinks that anything spiritual that costs money is therefore a con. People just carry this idea with them, without ever really looking closely or even understanding what is being offered.

[Taiji Bum]

How can I be so attached to money? Seriously? I live in the real world. I have a great job, a beautiful place to live, a hot car and a great life all around with marriage to the most wonderful woman on earth beginning to loom on the horizon. I NEED money so I work my tail off in the real world to make it. I might even start teaching taiji again to make some extra dough and I am not just good at taijiquan. I have achieved the higher levels of alchemy and can hold my own against judo/jujitsu black belts with it. I AM WORTH more than the average teacher so I will definately charge it. Its not mercenary, its just the real world. Do you know who I will be teaching to in these classes? Housewives who are taking tai chi because their pilates class got cancelled, young "men" who think they will learn Tie Chee and impress their friends and win the UFC and older guys who took Tae Kwon Do 30 years ago and now want to "get into it again". With that in mind I will overcharge and make the classes funny, entertaining, sexy and look out in hope for that one student who absolutely loves taiji, Taoism and wants to learn real taijiquan.

 

I am not angry btw, I am just incredulous at your very naive attitude (its not just yours and I am sure your a real nice kid) and in the midst of starting a website where I ACTUALLY DO give everything I have learned away for free. It is costing ME money to start this site so that I can give everything away for FREE! Crazy..... aint it?

 

Still got your hand out? Do you really want to learn for free? Fine.... learn how to embrace the tree and I am sure you can find out how online. Do it for a year and do no other practice. Do it every day for at least 4 hours! If you can do that for a year you will have real masters climbing over each other to teach you. The one thing more rare than a great master is a great student.

 

OK... maybe I am a little ticked. It aint about the money though......

Edited March 28, 2009 by DarinHamel

[LoneHaven]

I have a friend who thinks that anything spiritual that costs money is therefore a con. People just carry this idea with them, without ever really looking closely or even understanding what is being offered.

That's where I'm at I guess. Spirituality and money combined seem unnatural, and at odds, with each other. Someone stating he/she will help save or enlighten someone in return for cash feels negative.

[LoneHaven]

How can I be so attached to money? Seriously? I live in the real world. I have a great job, a beautiful place to live, a hot car and a great life all around with marriage to the most wonderful woman on earth beginning to loom on the horizon. I NEED money so I work my tail off in the real world to make it. I might even start teaching taiji again to make some extra dough and I am not just good at taijiquan. I have achieved the higher levels of alchemy and can hold my own against judo/jujitsu black belts with it. I AM WORTH more than the average teacher so I will definately charge it. Its not mercenary, its just the real world. Do you know who I will be teaching to in these classes? Housewives who are taking tai chi because their pilates class got cancelled, young "men" who think they will learn Tie Chee and impress their friends and win the UFC and older guys who took Tae Kwon Do 30 years ago and now want to "get into it again". With that in mind I will overcharge and make the classes funny, entertaining, sexy and look out in hope for that one student who absolutely loves taiji, Taoism and wants to learn real taijiquan.

 

I am not angry btw, I am just incredulous at your very naive attitude (its not just yours and I am sure your a real nice kid) and in the midst of starting a website where I ACTUALLY DO give everything I have learned away for free. It is costing ME money to start this site so that I can give everything away for FREE! Crazy..... aint it?

 

Still got your hand out? Do you really want to learn for free? Fine.... learn how to embrace the tree and I am sure you can find out how online. Do it for a year and do no other practice. Do it every day for at least 4 hours! If you can do that for a year you will have real masters climbing over each other to teach you. The one thing more rare than a great master is a great student.

 

OK... maybe I am a little ticked. It aint about the money though......

Congratulations on the wife and good luck with making future UFCers...lol. Your point on what most students will be like is understandable and I am sure they will hand their cash over quickly. And its cool your creating a site to pass on knowledge...I am slowly learning in school the ways of web-building...only know xhtml and css at this point. If you have a question a newcomer to web design can offer let me know.

 

Time will tell if I will persevere with my beginning mediation training - I hope I do. And note that I don't expect training for free nor have I asked for it. I don't expect to ever go to a teacher and say 'you train me now.' It just seems money should not be involved. Whether the return for training is hard work, future helping of others, or something else - it seems to fit better than the exchange of cash. But I suppose the student has to show he/she is worth the time and has the heart worth cultivating. I'm glad its not about the money though...when I saw your videos, it helped motivate a little - and then the charge out the ass comment - but in the context of what you stated, I understand your point.

 

Idealist out.

[Taiji Bum]

That's where I'm at I guess. Spirituality and money combined seem unnatural, and at odds, with each other. Someone stating he/she will help save or enlighten someone in return for cash feels negative.

Well if your really serious about no money and getting great spiritual training then try the Roman Catholic Church. It has Orders that you can join for free as do Buddhist, Taoists and Sufis where you get everything for free. Why aren't you banging down their doors? It's free!

 

Dude, I have no idea why I am picking on you. Your probably thinking I am a huge dick but really I am just trying to help you. Like my dad used to say, "You'll understand when your older." (Your not like 70 are you?)

[LoneHaven]

Well if your really serious about no money and getting great spiritual training then try the Roman Catholic Church. It has Orders that you can join for free as do Buddhist, Taoists and Sufis where you get everything for free. Why aren't you banging down their doors? It's free!

 

Dude, I have no idea why I am picking on you. Your probably thinking I am a huge dick but really I am just trying to help you. Like my dad used to say, "You'll understand when your older." (Your not like 70 are you?)

93 to be exact - maybe I'll understand next year...lol. 1972.

[AbsoluteBeginner]

Money is evil... But who knows a proper alternative to it?

[Taiji Bum]

My master told me to never teach because it will only break my heart when my students betray me. Here are a couple of my teaching experiences.

 

When I first started teaching in 1998 I was really excited. I had dreams of hard working students practicing the form... small groups throwing each other on the mats.... a few meditating in the corners oblivious to all the sweating, grunting warriors around them. But thats not how it was. In my first class it was five women who only took my class because they were friends and their usual pottery class got cancelled. I was devestated to say the least until I realized teaching was fun.

 

Eventually I attracted some hardcore students but good students end up resembing their masters. I am very independent so as soon as my guys got the inner stuff they would leave which was my goal. I dont want perpetual students paying me month after month for years. I want to make masters and I still do. (But this time I want to do it smarter.)

 

I had one guy who had to quit because he and his wife had their second baby. He had just "gotten" his first time-slowing experience with taiji and was really geeked about it. But.... he had to quit. He was inches away from mastery.

 

Another guy was just as good and a real scrapper. He was the first guy that I ever trained that got the closest to becoming a master but had to leave because he was groping the female students.

 

I've tried different teaching formats and this time I am thinking seminars.

 

Money is evil... But who knows a proper alternative to it?

Money ROCKS! Get some and you will see why.

[Aetherous]

Spirituality and money combined seem unnatural, and at odds, with each other.

 

Well, the truth is: they are.

 

A lot of teachers start teaching because their egos outgrow their seeker status. That's not to say they aren't still seekers, but just that they've stopped seeking. They're too good for it now that they've had all of these peak experiences. And it's nice for them to make money off of something like spirituality, which requires little actual work (compared to a day job), and is something which is easy to be interested in. Of course all desperate seekers who have made spirituality their lives see it as an easy way to make money...unless they are genuine.

 

I don't mean to pick on Darin because I like him (nothing personal), but for a while he was saying how he must have failed in his Taoist training because he didn't achieve a confirmatory sign at the right time. I don't want to be taught alchemy by someone who has failed at it. And also, he didn't have a teacher but (if I remember correctly) practiced entirely based on descriptions from books. Those books (like Taoist Yoga or Secret of the Golden Flower) are pretty misleading, in my view, and really require a Taoist sage to decipher and make relevant to you.

 

His attitude here is pretty condemning for no good reason, based on that info. Personally, I don't understand the anger based on the subject matter. It's very normal for people to not expect spiritual teachings to cost a lot. Maybe it's not something wrong with the seeker that they expect that, but with the teacher who expects the students to pay them instead of paying with dedicated practice. Also, in my opinion, it's kind of sad to see someone begin to start "teaching" when they haven't gotten very far. But to each his own. Every teacher is different for every student.

 

Just be cautious in who you choose as a teacher that you'll pay a lot for and stick with. Probably 95% will mislead you and waste your time. This website rocks because you can wade through it all and make up your own mind.

 

EDIT - If Darin is just talking about teaching Taiji, then that's totally cool. He'd probably make a better teacher than most out there, based on what I've seen in his youtube videos. I interpreted what he was saying as him wanting to teach alchemy.

 

Money is evil... But who knows a proper alternative to it?

 

Sincerity and dedication.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Scotty

[Taiji Bum]

Scotty is right. I'm being a dick. Bad me! I am not enlightened and either failed at the nine years or I havent finished it yet. Thats true. I just dont know. Maybe thats why I want to give it all away, so I can get on with my life and be normal for once.

 

If you dont want to spend money for enlightenment then dont. The worst thing you can do is violate your deepest values. My apologies.

 

Edit: I'll record a part 6 tomorrow explaining that I might have failed for my video series and where I might have gone wrong.

Edited March 28, 2009 by DarinHamel

[LoneHaven]

My master told me to never teach because it will only break my heart when my students betray me. away from mastery.

I can see that. I expect a great student is just as hard to find as a great teacher.

 

t's very normal for people to not expect spiritual teachings to cost a lot. Maybe it's not something wrong with the seeker that they expect that, but with the teacher who expects the students to pay them instead of paying with dedicated practice...

 

...I interpreted what he was saying as him wanting to teach alchemy...

Thanks and that is how I feel. It just seems so much deeper and money seems to cheapen it. I am talking about inner enlightment and spirituality.

 

...If you dont want to spend money for enlightenment then dont. The worst thing you can do is violate your deepest values. My apologies.

Paying for something so deep and pure seems more to violate my values than the concept of paying for it. That's me though.

Edited March 28, 2009 by LoneHaven

[Aetherous]

Edit: I'll record a part 6 tomorrow explaining that I might have failed for my video series and where I might have gone wrong.

 

I look forward to watching it. If you wrote a book or something I'd buy it, because your experiences are pretty awesome and unique. I hope I wasn't mean.

 

Congrats on the wife.

 

Maybe thats why I want to give it all away, so I can get on with my life and be normal for once.

 

When I asked what a real Chinese Taoist is like, my first Taoist teacher told me, "They really look up to, and try to be like the 'ordinary man.'"

[trailmaker]

Money is evil... But who knows a proper alternative to it?

 

 

hi AbsoluteBeginner - good question.

 

money is funny - barter is neat?