why money?

[Vajrasattva]

 

Money ROCKS! Get some and you will see why.

 

 

Haha this is awesome.

[Smile]

You are right.

Don't pay your teachers with paper money.

Pay them with gold bars - this will show them you are smart and you care.

[Vajrasattva]

Money is just paper with intent. Put good intent and its good money/good energy.

 

Its only evil if you

 

1) have issues with it

 

2)have a weak muladhara chakra

 

3)Have issues making money.

 

 

Money can do a LOT of good if you help others with it.

[fiveelementtao]

But surely one who reaches enlightenment isn't going to make a business out of it and charge others?

In order to have a valuable discussion, we need to ask you one question... What IS enlightenment in your definition?

Let's first look at the assumptions this statement carries with it...

1. people to whom you are looking to for enlightenment are indeed enlightened...

2. Assuming this is someone who has worked hard for many years to achieve "enlightnment" (whatever that is) no longer needs money to survive.

3. Paying for enlightenment is somehow different than paying for anything else you deem valuable. ( if you find it worthy to pay an electrician to fix the wiring in your house, why is not the teacher worthy of money also?

 

I was learning martial arts once and had to have an unexpected surgery. As soon as I was home from the hospital, I called my teacher to let him know what happened and why I was not at class. The first words from his mouth were, "what about my money?"

Well, that wasn't very sensitive of him, to be sure. I would have been hurt by that statement, too... But it begs the question.. what of his money? Did you owe him money? How much? How long had you not paid him? Did you ever pay him? But also, who said that martial arts and enlightenment always went together?

 

I pray that if a teacher arises when I am ready, that he/she will not have a hand out waiting for money; but instead a hand out waiting to grasp mine in friendship. I will do the same in return

A teacher is not a friend. A teacher must have no personal, emotional agenda. A friend by definition has an agenda. There is a reason why psychiatrists are not allowed to have any personal relationship with a patient. because the therapist must only be concerned with the welfare of the patient. The teacher is the same. If the teacher wants to be your friend, then you will not learn. Plus as a friend your teacher will be more interested in not hurting your feelings than in teaching you what you need to learn. You will both lose in that scenario.... I am talking from experience on both sides of that coin. It never works and both parties end up hurt.

 

I am just putting my mind in the place of a teacher. I have spent years cultivating a path and have reached enlightenment.

How can that be? If you haven't reached enlightenment, how can you presume to know what an enlightened person is thinking and feeling?

 

I watched your videos and am glad that you made it so far - but having gone so far how can you be so attached to money and such anger-inducing responses,

You question evokes angry responses because what you don't realize is that your question contains tremendous narcisism and self-entitlement. I know you don;t feel that way. But if you ahve ever been a spiritual teacher for any length of time, you would understand the angry responses...

 

My master told me to never teach because it will only break my heart when my students betray me.

That is the truest thing I have read on this forum. I have experienced it myself numerous times. I used to be that "good friend" who taught for free and each time I did it, I was always hurt. Money is the great determiner. it shows who is truly determined to learn. If someone is more willing to spend an extra 5 or 10 bucks on a restaurant meal than on their precious "enlightnment"...

 

What I have learned the most is that the most loving thing I can do is charge money to my students. To explain this would take a very long time. Those who understand need no explanation why this is true... Any teacher who does not charge you money is DOING YOU A HUGE DISSERVICE and their teaching will not stick....

 

To anyone who thinks that paying your meditation/chi kung/kung fu teacher is somehow beneath you and feel as though you have the right to have someone give to you of their hard work and years of learning for free... Please find a way to be successful at getting through the rest of your life without having to pay money first. (rent, mortgage, food, health care, cars, televisions, stereos, computer, internet, phone entertainment, etc...)

If what you truly are seeking is enlightenment, then that is the first thing you should be prepared to pay or work for. If it is not, you are not seeking enlightenment but emotional security.

 

In the past, in the cultures where "enlightenment" was found, teachers and gurus were supported by their communities and had no need to charge money to survive. Nowadays, things don't work that way. And if you want to spend your life in cultivation, the best way to keep your "enlightenment" and have the time to teach is to charge students for your time. That is the reality of the modern world...

 

There is always an exchange of energy. Paying with money is much much less expensive than the old way which was to become the guru's slave...

[Ryan T.]

That's where I'm at I guess. Spirituality and money combined seem unnatural, and at odds, with each other. Someone stating he/she will help save or enlighten someone in return for cash feels negative.

 

I suspect you haven't found a great teacher yet. I believe that once you find a great teacher you will be disappointed in yourself for not having more money to give that person as so many dedicated, skilled masters live on such meager means.

 

But you should pay, it is only right. You expect that a master will teach like what...? LIke Mr. Miyagi in the "The Karate Kid" and then just go to his bar tending job or selling shoes or whatever? A person who has spent a lifetime dedicating themselves to a practice will rarely have money on their mind unless it is of necessity and generally is embarrassed to have to be concerned about it. The fact that you had a bad experience with a teacher is unfortunate. But you should see that you are bringing that experience with you and it seems to be tainting your ideas about this.

 

There is plenty to be had for free but nothing can replace the tutelage and guidance of a real master...whatever the cost!

[Sunya]

You are right.

Don't pay your teachers with paper money.

Pay them with gold bars - this will show them you are smart and you care.

 

Pay them with gold pressed latinum. the best gift in the universe!

[Dainin]

Maybe if you become a celibate breatharian you can achieve such a level of purified holiness that an ascended master will bestow the teachings of The Light upon you...but don't hold your breath.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Dainin

[LoneHaven]

You are right.

Don't pay your teachers with paper money.

Pay them with gold bars - this will show them you are smart and you care.

That's funny...thanks for the humor!

 

Money is just paper with intent. Put good intent and its good money/good energy.

I like that statement and thanks for it.

 

In order to have a valuable discussion, we need to ask you one question... What IS enlightenment in your definition?

Let's first look at the assumptions this statement carries with it...

1. people to whom you are looking to for enlightenment are indeed enlightened...

2. Assuming this is someone who has worked hard for many years to achieve "enlightnment" (whatever that is) no longer needs money to survive.

3. Paying for enlightenment is somehow different than paying for anything else you deem valuable. ( if you find it worthy to pay an electrician to fix the wiring in your house, why is not the teacher worthy of money also?

I guess at this point 'enlightment' carries an undefined definition for me as I do not know how to describe it. On the surface, I see it as going deep inside oneself to expand to all - not sure how else to put it. I am new to this path and obviously lacking. I am not looking to be enlightened so I can call myself a master or to claim special powers - it is more of an internal thing for me - yet it seems it will reach out externally too.

 

Though lacking, my view of enlightment seems that it would be more valuable than money and that money would be irrelevent. Maybe it is the gesture that means more than the money and I like what Vajrasattva stated about intent. Though I still feel a negative view of using money

 

Well, that wasn't very sensitive of him, to be sure. I would have been hurt by that statement, too... But it begs the question.. what of his money? Did you owe him money? How much? How long had you not paid him? Did you ever pay him? But also, who said that martial arts and enlightenment always went together?

It was the beginning of the month when payment was due and I always paid on time. I did not mean to imply that martial arts and enlightenment go together, it was an example that has stayed with me. Slaps in the face hurt, but I guess I should get over it.

 

A teacher is not a friend. A teacher must have no personal, emotional agenda. A friend by definition has an agenda. There is a reason why psychiatrists are not allowed to have any personal relationship with a patient. because the therapist must only be concerned with the welfare of the patient. The teacher is the same. If the teacher wants to be your friend, then you will not learn. Plus as a friend your teacher will be more interested in not hurting your feelings than in teaching you what you need to learn. You will both lose in that scenario.... I am talking from experience on both sides of that coin. It never works and both parties end up hurt.

Makes sense.

 

How can that be? If you haven't reached enlightenment, how can you presume to know what an enlightened person is thinking and feeling?

I can't know at this point - I guess it is an assumption that money would seem to be a trivial matter when helping others along the path.

 

You question evokes angry responses because what you don't realize is that your question contains tremendous narcisism and self-entitlement. I know you don;t feel that way. But if you ahve ever been a spiritual teacher for any length of time, you would understand the angry responses...

Acknowledged, truly.

 

Any teacher who does not charge you money is DOING YOU A HUGE DISSERVICE and their teaching will not stick....

I think this may depend on the student's dedication to the path - but I am not even a student so I guess I cannot speak to this fully. But if the teacher and student have a true dedication, it would seem money or no money - the teaching would stick.

 

If what you truly are seeking is enlightenment, then that is the first thing you should be prepared to pay or work for. If it is not, you are not seeking enlightenment but emotional security.

My idealism may fade by the time I am ready for a teacher. But it is not emotional security that is the reason against the money.

 

In the past, in the cultures where "enlightenment" was found, teachers and gurus were supported by their communities and had no need to charge money to survive. Nowadays, things don't work that way. And if you want to spend your life in cultivation, the best way to keep your "enlightenment" and have the time to teach is to charge students for your time. That is the reality of the modern world...

 

There is always an exchange of energy. Paying with money is much much less expensive than the old way which was to become the guru's slave...

Understood. But if I ever see a $3000 posted seminar, and the teacher is blinged out, I am walking away - sorry bad joke.

Edited March 29, 2009 by LoneHaven

[LoneHaven]

I suspect you haven't found a great teacher yet. I believe that once you find a great teacher you will be disappointed in yourself for not having more money to give that person as so many dedicated, skilled masters live on such meager means.

 

But you should pay, it is only right. You expect that a master will teach like what...? LIke Mr. Miyagi in the "The Karate Kid" and then just go to his bar tending job or selling shoes or whatever? A person who has spent a lifetime dedicating themselves to a practice will rarely have money on their mind unless it is of necessity and generally is embarrassed to have to be concerned about it. The fact that you had a bad experience with a teacher is unfortunate. But you should see that you are bringing that experience with you and it seems to be tainting your ideas about this.

 

There is plenty to be had for free but nothing can replace the tutelage and guidance of a real master...whatever the cost!

Perhaps I am being too idealistic in my current views. I understand the needs of the teacher to survive - it's just I don't know. It just seems all of this should be above money. Ugh ugh ughidity ugh ugh ugh.

 

Maybe if you become a celibate breatharian you can achieve such a level of purified holiness that an ascended master will bestow the teachings of The Light upon you...but don't hold your breath.

too late...already passed out

[fiveelementtao]

Lonehaven, I salute your humble response to peoples ranting... It indicates to me that you really are trying to figure this issue out.

Though lacking, my view of enlightment seems that it would be more valuable than money

Money symbolizes that the teaching is valuable to YOU. One of the reasons I always charge money now is because I have learned that unless it costs the student something and they feel the loss of whatever they are giving up in exchange for the teaching, the student won't learn it. I have learned the hard way that when I give the teaching away or let a student "trade" for it, they never value it and my time is wasted and the teaching devalued.. And if they don't value it, they do not learn. It is a psychological trait in all humans.

 

But if the teacher and student have a true dedication, it would seem money or no money - the teaching would stick.

The teacher cannot have dedication to you if they do not require some sacrifice on your part. If they do not require this, they are not dedicated to you and you will lose out. The teaching itself must have value or it will not stick. A teacher's job is to represent the teaching not the teacher. This is why your teacher cannot be your friend. As a friend, he or she will reflect their own imperfections. The job of the teacher is to only reflect the teaching to the student.

 

Money is the universal symbol of value in this day and age. At other times, it was service or cows or what have you. The first thing any teacher should teach you is that what they have to teach is valuable and it is greater than they are. Any teacher who claims to BE the teaching is a fraud. Any good teacher will tell you the teaching is greater than they and as such the teaching requires that the student pay the teacher. This is the Universal rule. Any teacher who doesn't understand this is not ready to teach. A teacher takes money because the teaching requires it. Also, if the student doesn't sacrifice something to learn the teaching, both teacher and student are devalueing the teachings NOT the teacher. The teaching cannot accept payment, so the student pays the representation of the teaching which is the teacher. In my experience, if the teacher allows the teaching to be devalued, it will not penetrate. For a real teacher it is not easy to charge for the teachings But the teachings demand to be valued. Without this exchange of energy, you could have the secret of all existence in your hand, but if the teacher devalued it, it is worthless. I have found this to be inescapable. I have tried many times to teach for free and it failed every time. But I also learned it was my ego that prompted me to give the teaching away. So, that is why I say, any teacher who does not charge you, is doing you a disservice because he/she is acting out of their ego and insecurity or worse, they are setting you up for a much more expensive cost.

 

money would seem to be a trivial matter when helping others along the path.

It is... Money is the easiest thing to give. It was not always this way. The old days were much worse.... So, why is it such a big deal to you? If it is so trivial, I would think you would have no problem paying More money....

[mountainman]

Though lacking, my view of enlightment seems that it would be more valuable than money and that money would be irrelevent. Maybe it is the gesture that means more than the money and I like what Vajrasattva stated about intent. Though I still feel a negative view of using money

 

This is the precise reason why you would benefit from paying money for learning. In time you may let go of your negative view of using money.

 

 

 

 

 

It is... Money is the easiest thing to give. It was not always this way. The old days were much worse.... So, why is it such a big deal to you? If it is so trivial, I would think you would have no problem paying More money....

 

This is true. Money is the easiest thing to give. When money is not given the payment is much higher. Often the price is so high that the student is sapped of all motivation to learn and does not even practice the so called "free" teaching.

 

If you do not have the money then ask your teacher if you may help out with his chores such as cooking and cleaning. This is still not equal to value of the teaching and realizing this you will appreciate the teaching you are receiving even more and work even harder. Your heart will open with gratitude to the teaching you are receiving and you will advance even more Spiritually.

[mountainman]

Well, the truth is: they are.

 

And it's nice for them to make money off of something like spirituality, which requires little actual work (compared to a day job), and is something which is easy to be interested in. Of course all desperate seekers who have made spirituality their lives see it as an easy way to make money...unless they are genuine.

 

 

Spiritual practice has been the hardest work that I have ever done and this includes the times when I have had to work 3 jobs to take care of my family. Working a day and night job was easy - those days are some of my fondest memories. Spiritual practice where one just does some energy cultivation may be easy but comparing some practice where one needs to transcend ones own hell vs a day job makes the day job look like grandma's biscuits.

[fiveelementtao]

Edit. somebody else already said it...

Edited March 29, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[LoneHaven]

Money symbolizes that the teaching is valuable to YOU...

I can see how money can symbolize value, but I think the heart can show it much better.

 

...The teacher cannot have dedication to you if they do not require some sacrifice on your part....

I understand this.

 

...Money is the universal symbol of value in this day and age...

Perhaps this is where I am hung up - perhaps I am going against the grain of what we call value today.

 

...A teacher takes money because the teaching requires it...

This I did not know. I can understand an exchange of energy per se, but did not know this.

 

...I have tried many times to teach for free and it failed every time...

I curse your previous students - they have ruined it for the rest of us (just kidding about the curse)

 

It is... Money is the easiest thing to give. It was not always this way. The old days were much worse.... So, why is it such a big deal to you? If it is so trivial, I would think you would have no problem paying More money....

I guess the old days may be worse - having to chore a majority of the day - but not sure. Its not the money that I have a problem giving up really; it is the idea that it requires money in the first place if that makes sense. I know what you are saying though.

 

 

...In time you may let go of your negative view of using money.

This is probably another place where I am hung up and perhaps I will look at money diferently later on.

 

...Your heart will open with gratitude to the teaching you are receiving and you will advance even more Spiritually.

Amen.

 

 

I understand the points of view that are opposite mine (at my current point in time). To sum it from my eyes, I guess my biggest overall hang-up is the exchange of something so trivial as money for something so grand as following a path of enlightenment. I know, for the most part, we all (teacher and student) need money to make it in this day an age. Its just I equate the idealogy of enlightenment to that of the concept of love - which no monetary value can truly be placed upon. If I am ever blessed to fall in love again, I will not say, 'Thank you very much ma'am, that'll be three-fifty.' I am holding the idea of enlightenment in that same regards. And I guess I am also thinking of scammers that claim to be able to aid one along the path of enlightenment, and then will run off with my money, and perhaps my new love that cost me three-fifty...lol. But if that happens, I guess the answer is to keep along the path with another lesson learned. Thanks for everyone's input.

 

Now I am going to finish my internal debate of using a blog versus a practice journal to help me keep track of my beginning meditations...both sides are winning

Edited March 29, 2009 by LoneHaven

[fiveelementtao]

ts just I equate the idealogy of enlightenment to that of the concept of love - which no monetary value can truly be placed upon. If I am ever blessed to fall in love again, I will not say, 'Thank you very much ma'am, that'll be three-fifty.' smile.gif I am holding the idea of enlightenment in that same regards.

 

This is (IMO) the root of your misconception. Love has an agenda.

I can see how money can symbolize value, but I think the heart can show it much better.

Again here I hear you wanting a personal relationship. Teaching and learning are similar in that, it is not personal...

This is what I meant about wanting emotional security. This is different than wanting to learn. I think if you can make the separation in yourself between the kind of personal Love you are speaking of and the pure desire to learn. Then, money will no longer be an issue. If you think about it, you end up paying a heck of alot more for someone you fall in love with. You pay with your whole heart, but you also want the same in return. As long as you are wanting to give or recieve Love from a teacher, they will always dissapoint and hurt. A teacher doesn't care if you love him or her, they only care if you learn. And if along the way, you pay money to a guy who is con artist and he walks away with your money, he gave you a valuable lesson and you can check that guy off the list and keep looking. But you have kept your heart to yourself and are a little wiser. Well worth the three-fifty....

 

However, I understand your mistrust of con-artists, There are alot of them masquerading as teachers of enlightnment.

Blessings to you, my friend. I sincerely hope you find what you need and want...

Mike

[contrivedname!]

interesting topic, good points on both sides, however (and this isnt intended as an insult, and i likely am a 'kid' compared to many of the posters in this thread) some of the proponents of money charging that have posted seem to be pretty extreme in their view that money is necessary, going even to the point of saying you cant access teachings w/out that. that is wrong imo.

 

i was hoping to see Carsonzi in this thread as he has posted something before to the effect that he doesnt charge his students per se, but allows them to give him a 'donation' of what they felt his teaching was worth, and if they feel it was worthless, he doesnt require any payment. this seems like a good middle path to me, plus it allows a student to show true gratitude for the teachings rather than a "set gratitude" which may be an unattainable amount of money for many and thus would turn the given teachings into something elitist.

 

heres a hypothetical example, lets say i have 2 students, one is a homeless guy and the other is a wealthy business man. they are both very dedicated students, in fact they are both "great" students, which have been said to be hard to come by. the business man, being so grateful for the teaching, decides to give $2000, the homeless guy, being so grateful for the teaching, decides to give the teacher everything he has which amounts to $200. what would you do in this situation? being an enlightened teacher, would you take all the guy's money leaving him with little recourse in his ability to take care of himself? some may say that he needs to get a job and not be lazy or hes homeless because its his karma or something to that effect. just getting a job or making money isnt as easy as some have said. maybe when the economy is more stable, and maybe in america. sure if you are young, smart, strong, goodlooking, white, coming from a middleclass or better upbringing, etc. (dont necessarily have to have all of those traits, just some may work out) it probably is pretty easy for you to get a job and make money (here in america). what though, if you are 50, broken down from hard living for 20 years on the streets, and are required to register as a drug offender for the rest of your life, even though you have 5 years sober, will money just flow through the door and into your hands? doesnt seem so likely to me. is someone like this not as worthy as the successful business man?

 

i agree lonehaven, the true value of the teaching would, to me, be reflected in the heart/mind (i dont really like to separate these two more than i already do ), for some maybe that means they pay you, for others maybe they selflessly give what they were taught to others, etc.

 

just because society has developed to a point where money is nearly an inextricable part of most peoples existence, doesnt make it the wonderful key to accessing teachings. i am glad that you are well off, darin, not everyone is as fortunate as you.

 

lonehaven, damn only three fifty? thats cheap, ill bet a lot of women would do business with your love for that, maybe you should charge more like $500, to narrow the field to only "dedicated" lovers

 

great discussion,

chris

[Aetherous]

Spiritual practice has been the hardest work that I have ever done and this includes the times when I have had to work 3 jobs to take care of my family. Working a day and night job was easy - those days are some of my fondest memories. Spiritual practice where one just does some energy cultivation may be easy but comparing some practice where one needs to transcend ones own hell vs a day job makes the day job look like grandma's biscuits.

 

And yet you are posting in a spirituality forum, and not a forum about your day jobs. Why is that?

[javalava]

When I asked what a real Chinese Taoist is like, my first Taoist teacher told me, "They really look up to, and try to be like the 'ordinary man.'"

 

Now that, I like!

[LoneHaven]

This is (IMO) the root of your misconception. Love has an agenda.

 

Again here I hear you wanting a personal relationship. Teaching and learning are similar in that, it is not personal...

This is what I meant about wanting emotional security. This is different than wanting to learn. I think if you can make the separation in yourself between the kind of personal Love you are speaking of and the pure desire to learn. Then, money will no longer be an issue. If you think about it, you end up paying a heck of alot more for someone you fall in love with. You pay with your whole heart, but you also want the same in return. As long as you are wanting to give or recieve Love from a teacher, they will always dissapoint and hurt. A teacher doesn't care if you love him or her, they only care if you learn. And if along the way, you pay money to a guy who is con artist and he walks away with your money, he gave you a valuable lesson and you can check that guy off the list and keep looking. But you have kept your heart to yourself and are a little wiser. Well worth the three-fifty....

 

However, I understand your mistrust of con-artists, There are alot of them masquerading as teachers of enlightnment.

Blessings to you, my friend. I sincerely hope you find what you need and want...

Mike

Note that I was not thinking of love and enlightenment as the same thing per se, I was just trying to show another example of something that can't really have a monetary price put on it. But the emotional security of love is understood I think - and, beyond that, maybe it is the negative emotional view of money that I have that seems to make it not worthy as an exchange for something so pure. And thank you for your blessing. Blessings to you too.

 

...the true value of the teaching would, to me, be reflected in the heart/mind (i dont really like to separate these two more than i already do ), for some maybe that means they pay you, for others maybe they selflessly give what they were taught to others, etc...

 

...just because society has developed to a point where money is nearly an inextricable part of most peoples existence, doesnt make it the wonderful key to accessing teachings...

Yes...the heart and mind seem to be worth so much more. Just as the teaching the student is about to learn is priceless, so is the teaching from that student years down the road when he/she is teaching others - assuming the student is truly dedicated - that would be key.

 

lonehaven, damn only three fifty? thats cheap, ill bet a lot of women would do business with your love for that, maybe you should charge more like $500, to narrow the field to only "dedicated" lovers

 

 

So, in my head, I am trying to think about all of the non-dedicated students that a teacher sees come along. All of the aggregated years of teaching some that are not really in it to learn. I hope I am not one of those, but maybe I will fade too - I don't yet know. So how is that wasted energy accounted for from the teachers point of view. Or is it wasted at all - maybe one drop of teaching is still worth a lot and, down the road, the teaching (even a piece of it) will have an affect on the former-students life and point of view. So, I am not sure about this. Maybe finding the diamond in the rough, when a truly good student comes along, is value enough for all of the other dissipated students - maybe not. Maybe it is wasted energy teaching non-dedicated students - maybe not.

[Taiji Bum]

Try to get away with not buying your girlfriend anything on Valentines day and THEN tell me love doesn't have a monetary price. Even if you find a rare gurl who would rather you make her a craft go ahead a make a homemade engagement ring. See how that flies! "But honey I love you and you cant put a price on love..." LOL

 

Ok, now I am just making fun.

[Taiji Bum]

Edit: I'll record a part 6 tomorrow explaining that I might have failed for my video series and where I might have gone wrong.

I just stood in front of the camera and couldn't think of what to say. My problem is that I dont think I failed anymore. For a year or two I thought I did but now I dont think so. Things just get more subtle as the process goes on. In the beginning there are a ton of bells and whistles but as the years ground on the effects of the alchemy just got quieter. I guess my mid-life crisis is over now.

 

Anybody think I mis-represented myself on the videos? On the nine year one I even said I hadn't finished it and in the first one I admitted I am not glowing and levitating. I think I was pretty honest.

[LoneHaven]

Try to get away with not buying your girlfriend anything on Valentines day and THEN tell me love doesn't have a monetary price. Even if you find a rare gurl who would rather you make her a craft go ahead a make a homemade engagement ring. See how that flies! "But honey I love you and you cant put a price on love..." LOL

 

Ok, now I am just making fun.

lol....true, true

[fiveelementtao]

Note that I was not thinking of love and enlightenment as the same thing per se, I was just trying to show another example of something that can't really have a monetary price put on it. But the emotional security of love is understood I think - and, beyond that, maybe it is the negative emotional view of money that I have that seems to make it not worthy as an exchange for something so pure.

 

There are alot of assumptions in this statement. First: the idea that YOUR love and heart are the most valuable thing you can offer. (Yet it is the easiest for you to give). This assumes that the teacher NEEDS your love and mind and friendship etc... In psychological circles, they call this projection. In this instance you seem to be projecting your desires to be loved and known onto your imagined teachers.

 

Note that I was not thinking of love and enlightenment as the same thing per se,

Well, you were the one to make to comparison between the teacher student relationship and romantic love

Its just I equate the idealogy of enlightenment to that of the concept of love - which no monetary value can truly be placed upon. If I am ever blessed to fall in love again, I will not say, 'Thank you very much ma'am, that'll be three-fifty.' smile.gif I am holding the idea of enlightenment in that same regards

 

Again you are using your definition of enlightenment when you don't know what it is...

 

If according to your definition of an enlightened person, a master needs nothing from anyone. How is your friendship or love going to benefit him? You are making the determination that the only thing you will give in return for learning is your friendship. You are making all the rules. This is a very controlling attitude.... As the student you are the one benefitting from the teacher's knowledge and in return you give him... What? Your friendship? He/She can get that anywhere, why is YOUR friendship so valuable that he is willing to give you the secrets of the Universe just to have you as a friend?...

 

I would strongly suggest you look at your assumptions about enlightenment and spiritual teachers. If you don't know what enlightenment is, how can you assume to know what a teacher should or shouldn't require from you in return? or know what is pure and impure?..

I would really suggest looking at what it is you really want. Do you want to learn a spiritual path? (I don't buy into the idea of enlightenment) or do you want a intimate personal relationship?

If you want love and frienship, don't look for it in a teacher. If you want to learn, the first thing a REAL teacher will teach you is to get your personal desires out of the way...

 

What I still hear overwhelmingly in your posts is a desire to be loved, and accepted and understood... As opposed to popular viewpoint, IMHO, Enlightnment is NOT human love or bliss. and it requires ruthless discipline and self-investigation... IMHO if you continue seeking this kind of enlightenment, the only kind of teachers you will find are ones who will take advantage of you...

My experience only...

[mountainman]

And yet you are posting in a spirituality forum, and not a forum about your day jobs. Why is that?

 

Actually I make more posts in forums related to my paid jobs than I do here.

Edited March 30, 2009 by mountainman

[Aetherous]

Oh.