why money?

[LoneHaven]

There are alot of assumptions in this statement. First: the idea that YOUR love and heart are the most valuable thing you can offer. (Yet it is the easiest for you to give). This assumes that the teacher NEEDS your love and mind and friendship etc... In psychological circles, they call this projection. In this instance you seem to be projecting your desires to be loved and known onto your imagined teachers.

Well, you were the one to make to comparison between the teacher student relationship and romantic love

Again you are using your definition of enlightenment when you don't know what it is...

 

If according to your definition of an enlightened person, a master needs nothing from anyone. How is your friendship or love going to benefit him? You are making the determination that the only thing you will give in return for learning is your friendship. You are making all the rules. This is a very controlling attitude.... As the student you are the one benefitting from the teacher's knowledge and in return you give him... What? Your friendship? He/She can get that anywhere, why is YOUR friendship so valuable that he is willing to give you the secrets of the Universe just to have you as a friend?...

 

I would strongly suggest you look at your assumptions about enlightenment and spiritual teachers. If you don't know what enlightenment is, how can you assume to know what a teacher should or shouldn't require from you in return? or know what is pure and impure?..

I would really suggest looking at what it is you really want. Do you want to learn a spiritual path? (I don't buy into the idea of enlightenment) or do you want a intimate personal relationship?

If you want love and frienship, don't look for it in a teacher. If you want to learn, the first thing a REAL teacher will teach you is to get your personal desires out of the way...

 

What I still hear overwhelmingly in your posts is a desire to be loved, and accepted and understood... As opposed to popular viewpoint, IMHO, Enlightnment is NOT human love or bliss. and it requires ruthless discipline and self-investigation... IMHO if you continue seeking this kind of enlightenment, the only kind of teachers you will find are ones who will take advantage of you...

My experience only...

Ok...lets remove love from the whole equation. In no way was I trying to compare love to the idea of enlightenment. I was only using the concept of love to compare with something else being beyond money in my eyes. Sorry for the confusion.

 

To answer your question, I am going into this as a spiritual path. If I ever have a teacher, I do not expect anything beyond a teacher. It will be quite some time before I am even ready I think. And I do not know what enlightenment is at this point - it is just an abstract concept without a concrete meaning for me right now. So my use of the word is probably lacking.

 

I do look forward to removing personal desires - though I am sure that is not an easy task within itself. And I know it will be hard work and discipline beginning this journey - I am sure I am very naive at this point but I hope practice and learning will change that over time.

[Taiji Bum]

You know what LoneHaven? I am Catholic and I have gone to several priests to help me in my spiritual life and none charged me money. The last one was a famous author who didn't charge me any money but he wouldn't take me on until he found out I was spending more than 6 hours a day praying, meditating, was also active in my local church as a Lector and doing some volunteer work at a soup kitchen. While I was under his spiritual care one of his spiritual children moved to Iraq but before he did he sold his house and gave all the money to this priest. It was about $400,000 and I was there when the check changed hands! The love in the eyes of the dude giving the money was amazing. The priest was of course living in poverty and driving a crap car, living in a small bare room and spending all his free time in civil rights causes. He was a REAL spiritual master.

 

Thanks for reminding me of him.....

[LoneHaven]

I just stood in front of the camera and couldn't think of what to say. My problem is that I dont think I failed anymore. For a year or two I thought I did but now I dont think so. Things just get more subtle as the process goes on. In the beginning there are a ton of bells and whistles but as the years ground on the effects of the alchemy just got quieter. I guess my mid-life crisis is over now.

 

Anybody think I mis-represented myself on the videos? On the nine year one I even said I hadn't finished it and in the first one I admitted I am not glowing and levitating. I think I was pretty honest.

You may want to create a thread on that or bump your original video thread. I thought your videos were genuine and motivational.

 

You know what LoneHaven? I am Catholic and I have gone to several priests to help me in my spiritual life and none charged me money. The last one was a famous author who didn't charge me any money but he wouldn't take me on until he found out I was spending more than 6 hours a day praying, meditating, was also active in my local church as a Lector and doing some volunteer work at a soup kitchen. While I was under his spiritual care one of his spiritual children moved to Iraq but before he did he sold his house and gave all the money to this priest. It was about $400,000 and I was there when the check changed hands! The love in the eyes of the dude giving the money was amazing. The priest was of course living in poverty and driving a crap car, living in a small bare room and spending all his free time in civil rights causes. He was a REAL spiritual master.

 

Thanks for reminding me of him.....

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing that.

[goldisheavy]

Try to get away with not buying your girlfriend anything on Valentines day and THEN tell me love doesn't have a monetary price. Even if you find a rare gurl who would rather you make her a craft go ahead a make a homemade engagement ring. See how that flies! "But honey I love you and you cant put a price on love..." LOL

 

Ok, now I am just making fun.

 

What bullshit. The problem is with your woman. My wife has no problem like that. Last valentine we donated some money to charity and had a peaceful day besides that. It doesn't have to be all about bribery and whoring. Not all women are whores.

[goldisheavy]

LoneHeaven,

 

What you want does exist. However, here is how I understand it. In order to find a teacher like that you have to find someone who has risen beyond the worldly concerns, if not completely, then at least 70% or so. By that time spirituality is not just insight, but it translates into manifestation. You can maintain health, stay fed/content, not be affected by elements, and so on. In other words, these kind of people have real power and thus do not need money to live in the world. Alternatively, there are people who depend on spiritual "good luck", on people donating in a timely manner, etc., and those guys don't necessarily have all that much manifestation power. But in any case, anyone who spends full time on spiritual matters and who also doesn't charge any money for teaching, is rare, because the level of ultimate realization and relative attainment necessary to maintain that kind of lifestyle and commitment is high.

 

What's kind of rare, and I wish it was more common, is a medium level teacher who has a regular job and can be your friend and help you after work. For this kind of guy/girl, since they are still part of the world, money is no problem, since they have a primary job and spiritual path is the labor of love for them. Those guys might not charge you anything, but it's hard to find them, because doh, they don't go around advertising. They have normal jobs after all and lead normal lives. So you have to meet one as a friend through good luck.

 

Many many people are quite happy with the world as it is. So they have no spirit of renunciation and no spirit of emergence. They want spirituality to kind of fix up their worldly life, but no more than that. Most people on this forum are kind of like this, in my opinion. Not to say good or bad, but one should be aware of different choices. If your choice is to cultivate an emergent mind, then mingling with non-emergent people is not really a plus. It's not a minus, but it's not a plus. It's not the kind of community that can put wind in your sails if you want to sail beyond this world, since these folk intend to stay in similar manifestations indefinitely. And it makes a lot of sense that for these folk charging money is good and normal. And they'll tell you as much. It's consistent with their desire.

 

Usually the people who have problem with exchanging money for spiritual wisdom are those who intend to cultivate an emergent mind. Those who do not intend on staying in this world as we know it for very long. To them, exchanging money for wisdom is like fucking for virginity or like fighting for peace. It's counterproductive for what they want to achieve. If you want to achieve a world of grace and mercy, that's a very different world from the world of "I earned mine", skill, and business relationships. In the world of grace and mercy informality is important. In the business world formality is important. In the world of grace and mercy, free uninhibited flow is important. In the business world, a very structured, "you are held to your word" functioning is important. Business depends on structures, and if you find these structures constraining, it makes no sense to engage in those structures in order to escape their grasp, at least, not long term.

 

Finally, this world is like a test. There are many shiny things in this world. But not all shiny things are good for you. Shiny things can be of different kinds. They can be material, like cars and women which want expensive gifts. They can be immaterial, such as knowing other people's secrets, social status. They can even be spiritual, like the shiny Gurus and the shiny priests and so forth. All these shiny objects attract your attention. They want you to love them. They want you to get them. They want you to invest in them, your heart, your time, and in this world, your money. Is any of this good for you? I will say -- very, very rarely! Learn to resist the shiny objects. Control your curiosity. Curiosity is a good quality but not when it's out of control. It's not good if you feel compelled to seek initiation into ever secret practice known to man, for example. It's not good if you feel compelled to learn everything ever. Find what is truly important to you, and become curious about that. And as for other shiny things, become incurious about them. You won't be missing out! Oh sure sure, the sale is on TODAY and you MUST BUY TODAY! They always say that. But truth is, tomorrow is another day and another urgent sale. That's the nature of the shiny things. They always present themselves as unique, special and indispensable, but in reality they arise over and over again, as much as you like (probably much more than you'd like, actually, so they can get very annoying at times).

 

What you seek is within you. The highest source of knowledge is your own mind and the highest guiding light is your own heart. If you persist, and if you're open to it, you'll find yourself some friends who will be aligned with you. That will be plenty good enough!

Edited March 30, 2009 by goldisheavy

[h.uriahr]

What bullshit. The problem is with your woman. My wife has no problem like that. Last valentine we donated some money to charity and had a peaceful day besides that. It doesn't have to be all about bribery and whoring. Not all women are whores.

 

In that case your woman is a whore for charity. Did you donate anonymously?

A woman wanting a nice piece of jewelry isnt a whore. A woman wanting nothing but jewelry on the other hand I would agree is a bit clouded. Jewelry is a conditioning of our current society.

[Taiji Bum]

What bullshit. The problem is with your woman. My wife has no problem like that. Last valentine we donated some money to charity and had a peaceful day besides that. It doesn't have to be all about bribery and whoring. Not all women are whores.

[dizzydazzle]

Has anyone heard goldisheavy say anything positive about anyone or anything? Other than goldheavy himself of course

[Taoist81]

There are teachers out there who see things exactly the way you do. The Kung Fu school back home was one in which there were no charges (except a fee that the University who owned the gym we used charged non-students, the Kung Fu school got none of the money) for teaching. It was simply expected (and part of the training) that you would in turn teach when you had begun to learn. Each level taught the one below it. Same thing with the A.'.A.'.. You actually get expelled, permanently, from the Order if you are found to be charging in any way for spiritual teaching through the Order. Some other Orders have similar philosophies. Some require you to donate to charity, or the like. Just keep looking for what you expect. It is far more common to find a supposed Master or "tradition" who charges a ton and actually teach crap just to make money, than to find a "real Master" who is that concerned about it. Taking money and the "ownership" type mastership out of the equation makes it much less likely that someone who hasn't "walked the path" before would bother trying to fake it. There is much less to gain for the frauds and much more opportunity to "enlighten" for those who have something real to offer.

[Yoda]

Like Naropa demanding more and more gold from Marpa... "Keep em coming!!!"

 

Fortunately for Marpa, Naropa wasn't buying fast cars and dakinis with it or anything.

[fiveelementtao]

What you want does exist. However, here is how I understand it. In order to find a teacher like that you have to find someone who has risen beyond the worldly concerns,

Those teachers are called angels or guides, the rest of us in bodies need to eat and have shelter to survive.

 

What's kind of rare, and I wish it was more common, is a medium level teacher who has a regular job and can be your friend and help you after work.

Sure, that makes perfect sense, he works all day at a job, comes home and then spends the rest of his time donating his free time to you... Just because you're so special and cute... Anyone who does this is an energy thief. He is seeking ego worship or worse... This is the worst scenario for a student. Money is a way to set BOUNDARIES which protect the student and remind the teacher he/she is there to serve. Without it, I guarantee you the teacher will expect something from you (on HIS terms not yours)... This is unavoidable. If the teacher doesn't realize this, he is not ready to teach and is potentially very dangerous and possibly abusive. Asking a teacher to love you in return for his teaching is asking to be abused...

 

Look, what we're talking about here is an exchange. There are people like Darin mentioned who don't charge money. But, in that case, he demanded a much more expensive payment than money.

The last one was a famous author who didn't charge me any money but he wouldn't take me on until he found out I was spending more than 6 hours a day praying, meditating, was also active in my local church as a Lector and doing some volunteer work at a soup kitchen.

The priest probably gets some assistance from the catholic church for his needs as well as health insurance etc... (Darin, correct me if I am wrong) at the very least, the Catholic church provides the priest with the office of priest. By helping out in his local church, Darin is giving back to the church which this priest represents who in turn supports the priest. So, the principle is the same. There is always an exchange of energy.

Darin, in the instance you mention, if you had gone to that priest and said, "Will you mentor me? I don;t want to pay you and I don't have time for prayer and service, but if you want, when I have some free time, we can hang out and be friends..." I'm willing to bet that priest would have politely declined your generous offer of friendship.

 

even friends have an exchange of energy. They exchange mutual friendship. They are drawn to each other. You can't just walk up to someone and unilaterally decide that they are going to be your friend. In the same way, to expect a teacher to want to be your buddy is childish. Feelings of friendship and gratitude are the byproducts of teacher student relationship, they are not payment.

If someone is in a position that they don't need money, if they are a real teacher they will demand that the student sacrifice something. This is a law of learning.

Vajrasattva is a good example, in exchange for his help in the healing forum, he asks that people contribute to charity. This is the same principle.

The first step to learning is to overcome our selfishness. To expect instruction without ANY sacrifice is nothing short of selfishness.... my advice is focus on the learning and keep your personal feelings out of it.

[goldisheavy]

In that case your woman is a whore for charity. Did you donate anonymously?

A woman wanting a nice piece of jewelry isnt a whore. A woman wanting nothing but jewelry on the other hand I would agree is a bit clouded. Jewelry is a conditioning of our current society.

 

Actually we considered that, but that wasn't easy to do. Not every charity makes it easy to do anonymous donations. Besides, they do like to get you on the hook and start mailing you crap to get more donations.

 

My point was simple. Not everyone is hung up on gifts, diamond rings and so on. I got married without a diamond ring. If for some reason we couldn't donate anything, my wife would be OK with it. She'd be a little sad that we didn't do SOMETHING (yea, yea.... she's not perfect), but she wouldn't go batshit insane over it either. Most of the time she is extremely reasonable. Like if I forget her gift or some occasion or if she forgets mine. It's no problem.

 

Every time I read about how women want diamond rings or gifts or other bullshit I get sad and upset. It speaks badly of the entire female gender, if true. And I don't think it's true. It's kind of like saying that all men are drunks or something like that. They are not and not even close. And I think there are a lot of decent women who wouldn't flip out if they didn't get something on valentines.

 

One thing that a woman deserves and is legitimate, is attention. However this doesn't mean it has to be ritualized, like you have to attend in a certain way on a certain day. That's not necessary. If you love and attend to your woman day to day, there is no reason to flip out if a holiday or even the wedding day is just like any other day in terms of materials involved. Wedding is about the commitment and it's not about rings and parties. If you get that point, then you also get how you don't need a big ceremony and how you don't need any rings (blood diamonds).

 

Sure, that makes perfect sense, he works all day at a job, comes home and then spends the rest of his time donating his free time to you...

 

What a crappy, crappy thing to say. Don't you have any friends? Do your friends feel like they are donating their time to you? Ever wanted to charge your friends for the privilege of friendship? What has the world gotten to? That's fucking aweful.

 

You make it sound like sharing in spiritual wisdom is such an annoying chore that you must be compensated for it. It doesn't occur to you in the slightest that it, perhaps...wait for it....WAIT FOR IT.... MIGHT BE DELIGHTFUL and that you might even PAY for it yourself? I mean the teacher might want to PAY THE STUDENT for the privilege of having someone to pass their knowledge onto? Does it occur to you that it can be fun? Like two guys get together to play with the car modifications, two guys can get together to discuss meditation experiences and contemplative topics. It doesn't have to be a job, like a chore, that you must be paid for.

 

Not everything in life is a chore! I hope most things in life are not, and if they are, we must stop living that kind of life.

 

To say that there is no kind of relationship on this Earth, other than a formal business relationship, is total and utter bull shit. This world has too many business relationships already. We don't need more business.

 

Like Naropa demanding more and more gold from Marpa... "Keep em coming!!!"

 

Fortunately for Marpa, Naropa wasn't buying fast cars and dakinis with it or anything.

 

Exactly. That's a very special circumstance. Naropa had no use for gold. He probably threw it away. He wasn't demanding it to pay the bills!! He was demanding it to rid Marpa of every last shred of the worldly attachment.

 

Oh how different that is!

 

It's not even slightly similar to perpetuating business involvement with the world, which is equivalent to fostering an attachment to the world and to gold! It's diametrically opposite of that.

[h.uriahr]

Actually we considered that, but that wasn't easy to do. Not every charity makes it easy to do anonymous donations. Besides, they do like to get you on the hook and start mailing you crap to get more donations.

 

My point was simple. Not everyone is hung up on gifts, diamond rings and so on. I got married without a diamond ring. If for some reason we couldn't donate anything, my wife would be OK with it. She'd be a little sad that we didn't do SOMETHING (yea, yea.... she's not perfect), but she wouldn't go batshit insane over it either. Most of the time she is extremely reasonable. Like if I forget her gift or some occasion or if she forgets mine. It's no problem.

 

Every time I read about how women want diamond rings or gifts or other bullshit I get sad and upset. It speaks badly of the entire female gender, if true. And I don't think it's true. It's kind of like saying that all men are drunks or something like that. They are not and not even close. And I think there are a lot of decent women who wouldn't flip out if they didn't get something on valentines.

 

One thing that a woman deserves and is legitimate, is attention. However this doesn't mean it has to be ritualized, like you have to attend in a certain way on a certain day. That's not necessary. If you love and attend to your woman day to day, there is no reason to flip out if a holiday or even the wedding day is just like any other day in terms of materials involved. Wedding is about the commitment and it's not about rings and parties. If you get that point, then you also get how you don't need a big ceremony and how you don't need any rings (blood diamonds).

What a crappy, crappy thing to say. Don't you have any friends? Do your friends feel like they are donating their time to you? Ever wanted to charge your friends for the privilege of friendship? What has the world gotten to? That's fucking aweful.

 

You make it sound like sharing in spiritual wisdom is such an annoying chore that you must be compensated for it. It doesn't occur to you in the slightest that it, perhaps...wait for it....WAIT FOR IT.... MIGHT BE DELIGHTFUL and that you might even PAY for it yourself? I mean the teacher might want to PAY THE STUDENT for the privilege of having someone to pass their knowledge onto? Does it occur to you that it can be fun? Like two guys get together to play with the car modifications, two guys can get together to discuss meditation experiences and contemplative topics. It doesn't have to be a job, like a chore, that you must be paid for.

 

Not everything in life is a chore! I hope most things in life are not, and if they are, we must stop living that kind of life.

 

To say that there is no kind of relationship on this Earth, other than a formal business relationship, is total and utter bull shit. This world has too many business relationships already. We don't need more business.

Exactly. That's a very special circumstance. Naropa had no use for gold. He probably threw it away. He wasn't demanding it to pay the bills!! He was demanding it to rid Marpa of every last shred of the worldly attachment.

 

Oh how different that is!

 

It's not even slightly similar to perpetuating business involvement with the world, which is equivalent to fostering an attachment to the world and to gold! It's diametrically opposite of that.

 

I agree with that.

I wouldve just quoted your reply so I'm not replying to whole thing but uh....for some odd reason the whole quote "thing" seems to fly over my head..

Edited March 30, 2009 by h.uriahr

[fiveelementtao]

Like two guys get together to play with the car modifications, two guys can get together to discuss meditation experiences and contemplative topics. It doesn't have to be a job, like a chore, that you must be paid for.

that is not a student teacher relationship. Two guys SHARING info is a two way street. The topic is student teacher relationships. You are talking friends. There is a difference. If you don't know that, you have never been a student. When you went to high school, did your math teacher ask you to teach him about math?

GIH, having seen your love for argument. so,I will not engage with you after this post. You twist words.

If you read my post carefully, you would have read that friendship is already mutually beneficial. That is the exchange. If someone is your friend AND your teacher, then the exchange is lopsided. That was my point. But I practice everything I write about. How about you?

 

It doesn't occur to you in the slightest that it, perhaps...wait for it....WAIT FOR IT.... MIGHT BE DELIGHTFUL and that you might even PAY for it yourself? I mean the teacher might want to PAY THE STUDENT for the privilege of having someone to pass their knowledge onto?

You're kidding me right?... LMFAO

Listen GIH, put your money where your mouth is. Since you are such a High master. I DARE you to pay money to students here on Taobums to learn from you. Invite them to your home, cook for them, teach them your wisdom and then pay them. Everything i talk about I have experienced first hand or actively am doing now.... Put up or shut up. You are all talk. If you can get at least one student that you are paying on a regular basis to come to your home after work and be your friend/student. Then you can open your steam hole and brag about it. If the student also comes on here and shares the experience, I will listen. But after that craziness, I am not going to pay you any more attention. You are in your own world, buddy.

Edited March 30, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[fiveelementtao]

actually, I take that back. there is ONE relationship among humans where one person gives everything and asks for nothing, that is a Mother. This is an understandable desire. But a mother pampers and shields their children. A teacher strengthens and enables the student to grow. I submit that anyone who wishes their teacher to be their mother is not really looking for enlightenment, but to still stay a child... Anyway, in my experience, (Which I admit is limited) no human can ever take the place of the mother.... To expect that from another person, is impossible and dangerous....

[Aetherous]

Too much here is said too strongly. There are many exceptions to the rule. I think a true student/teacher dynamic comes from a mutual respect for the teaching, and has little to do with money or karmic debts. I respect teachers who support themselves with regular jobs.

[goldisheavy]

that is not a student teacher relationship. Two guys SHARING info is a two way street. The topic is student teacher relationships. You are talking friends. There is a difference.

 

I see. So you're telling me you've never learned anything from friends? The only time you are learning is when you're in the presence of a formalized teacher figure? Maybe your friends are all idiots who are incapable of ever teaching you anything. I suppose that's possible. In my experience, some of my most productive and memorable learnings occurred with friends rather than teachers.

 

GIH, having seen your love for argument. so,I will not engage with you after this post. You twist words.

 

I do love to argue, but I never twist words. I just don't agree with a lot of things people say. Don't blame me.

 

Someone here is asking a question about money in spiritual relationships. Essentially, as I understand it, the question is whether or not all spiritually beneficial relationships are businesslike. My answer is an emphatic "no". I am saying that the most productive relationships are informal and like those of friends or even best friends. Within the context of such relationship it's very good to learn and grow.

 

Some people cannot take their friend seriously though. Such people require a teacher to appear within a formalized role defined strictly as a "teacher". That's because the amount of respect and open-mindedness is limited. However, if as a student you are receptive, open-minded, and able to respect anyone regardless of their formal status, then the best environment bar none is that of informal friendship. Within an informal friendship relationship there are no barriers to learning. Within formalized relationship there are psychological barriers; it's not the most efficient way possible.

 

Just my opinion.

 

If you read my post carefully, you would have read that friendship is already mutually beneficial. That is the exchange. If someone is your friend AND your teacher, then the exchange is lopsided.

 

Not at all. How is it lopsided? Are you telling me that your friends never taught you anything out of the goodness of their heart because it was fun? Teaching is fun. It's not a chore. If some person thinks that teacher is such a chore that they need to get paid, such person should not be a teacher. Such person will be a terrible teacher.

 

But I practice everything I write about. How about you?

 

Same here.

 

Listen GIH, put your money where your mouth is. Since you are such a High master. I DARE you to pay money to students here on Taobums to learn from you. Invite them to your home, cook for them, teach them your wisdom and then pay them.

 

I would do that if anyone lives close to me. Anyone in Burbank, California want to go out for dinner? We'll chat and be friendly. I won't be formally teaching anything, but if you learn something, that's great. The only thing is, it has to be fun, like any friend activity. No biggie. If we all enjoy it, I don't see a problem. If I was starving, of course I would hope my friends would help me. But if I am not starving, I don't see a problem.

 

I'm not an extremist. Business is a good thing, and I buy many things myself. However, what's bad is when business invades every sphere of life. Some families treat their kids like business too. For example, if they bring good grades, they get paid. They get paid for taking out trash and mowing the lawn. That's terrible. This destroys the family relationship and replaces it with a cold business relationship. To bring this kind of relationship into the realm of the spiritual wisdom is dangerous. It's possible, but one must be very careful. It's not advisable if the highest spiritual wisdom is your goal. It's OK if you just want to learn a concrete skill, like heating up objects or like healing techniques.

 

Everything i talk about I have experienced first hand or actively am doing now.... Put up or shut up. You are all talk. If you can get at least one student that you are paying on a regular basis to come to your home after work and be your friend/student.

 

Don't take what I said about payment too literally. (Do you take everything literally?) The point was simple. The point was that teachers, the good ones, enjoy what they are doing. They love what they do and would conceivably pay for it, if they were desperate enough. Thing is, most teachers think that what they know is really good and that people should themselves want to learn it, so they don't get desperate about teaching it.

 

Is teaching fun? Is it enjoyable? Why someone should pay you for your own enjoyment? It's different if someone is starving or needs a home or something like that. Then we work by ourselves or as a community to enable that. But once the material needs are taken care of, and these needs tend to be very modest with most real people, then all talk about money stops.

 

 

actually, I take that back. there is ONE relationship among humans where one person gives everything and asks for nothing, that is a Mother.

 

Don't flip out. Mothers are not angels. Mothers constantly ask the world of their kids. At least, the good ones do. My mother expected a lot out of me and if I didn't live up to it, she'd kick my ass same as my dad. All the other mothers I know were like that too. The only thing different is an absentee mother, but then I don't think we can say they give the world either. Being born into this world is not a gift. It's anywhere between a neutral and a curse. This world is not the best world for learning and growing. It's OK. Not bad. But not great.

 

If you cling to your life a lot, then you think being born is such a blessing and a gift. You don't see the downside. A better approach is to avoid leaning. There are good, bad and neutral experiences in life, and thus life is not absolutely good. It's all kinds. It changes. It's not fixed.

[fiveelementtao]

Don't take what I said about payment too literally. (Do you take everything literally?)

Yes, I always mean what I say.

I have very little tolerance for bullies. You love to fight and you attack peoples' character with frivolous attacks. I have very little tolerance for that. And like most bullies, when confronted and required to follow through, you chicken out.

I won't be formally teaching anything, but if you learn something, that's great.

That's not what you suggested. You suggested that teachers pay their students for the honor of teaching. when I encouraged you to do just that... Now, you say you are kidding and that I shouldn't take you literally. You chickened out. taking a friend out for dinner one time is not teaching. Again I challenge you to follow through with your example of paying someone on a regular basis to follow your teachings. Anything else you mention is a friendship relationship not a teacher relationship. You are too smart not to know the difference. If you follow through and pay someone to learn from you, I will be very eager to see the result of that experience. If not, I know you are all talk and someone to ignore...

[trailmaker]

teaching is an education in itself - you're always a teacher or a student any given exchange, friend foe or

guide.

 

when you're a teacher your students will teach you how to teach, for which you pay with your time.

 

so when you're a student you're paying with your time, no matter what $ involved, and no time wasted.

[LoneHaven]

What you want does exist. However, here is how I understand it. In order to find a teacher like that you have to find someone who has risen beyond the worldly concerns, if not completely, then at least 70% or so. By that time spirituality is not just insight, but it translates into manifestation....

 

...But in any case, anyone who spends full time on spiritual matters and who also doesn't charge any money for teaching, is rare, because the level of ultimate realization and relative attainment necessary to maintain that kind of lifestyle and commitment is high.

Makes sense. And I am sure it is rare. All of the world is money based for the most part - so to overcome it I imagine is a big challenge - and to avoid it seems sometimes hopeless.

 

Finally, this world is like a test. There are many shiny things in this world...

...Learn to resist the shiny objects. Control your curiosity. Curiosity is a good quality but not when it's out of control. It's not good if you feel compelled to seek initiation into ever secret practice known to man, for example. It's not good if you feel compelled to learn everything ever. Find what is truly important to you, and become curious about that. And as for other shiny things, become incurious about them...

Great statemant...thanks for that. Straying off is easy to do - keeping what is important close to the heart will aid and I will have to remind myself constantly what truly is important at this time.

 

...What you seek is within you. The highest source of knowledge is your own mind and the highest guiding light is your own heart.

This rings so true to me. I can't say anything beyond that...it just feels right.

 

 

 

There are teachers out there who see things exactly the way you do. The Kung Fu school back home was one in which there were no charges (except a fee that the University who owned the gym we used charged non-students, the Kung Fu school got none of the money) for teaching. It was simply expected (and part of the training) that you would in turn teach when you had begun to learn. Each level taught the one below it. Same thing with the A.'.A.'.. You actually get expelled, permanently, from the Order if you are found to be charging in any way for spiritual teaching through the Order. Some other Orders have similar philosophies. Some require you to donate to charity, or the like. Just keep looking for what you expect. It is far more common to find a supposed Master or "tradition" who charges a ton and actually teach crap just to make money, than to find a "real Master" who is that concerned about it. Taking money and the "ownership" type mastership out of the equation makes it much less likely that someone who hasn't "walked the path" before would bother trying to fake it. There is much less to gain for the frauds and much more opportunity to "enlighten" for those who have something real to offer.

Thanks for that...passing on the knowledge seems worth more than anything. I read about the A.'.A.'. a few years back - I forget if it is Golden Dawn or Crowley based or not, but its cool you brought it up. I was looking at Tao Te Ching translations a week ago online and there was one written by Crowley.

 

I like that they, and the Kung Fu school you went to, choose to pass on the knowledge in such a way as you explained. Its great that they are in a situation where they are able to do that. I am sure in this day and age, it is is very situational - but yeah not impossible.

 

...I think a true student/teacher dynamic comes from a mutual respect for the teaching, and has little to do with money or karmic debts...

[goldisheavy]

That's not what you suggested. You suggested that teachers pay their students for the honor of teaching.

 

I explained that I didn't mean that literally. I didn't suggest the teacher literally pay the student. I said that to indicate that the process is ideally enjoyable to the teacher so much, that they'd be able to conceive of paying for it.

 

It's kind of like when people say, "If I didn't get paid to do it, I would pay to do it" when they talk about enjoying some profession, when they refer to it as a heart calling.

 

So who is twisting the words now? I almost never speak 100% literally. I speak about 50% literally and 50% metaphorically. Anyone who takes me 100% literally is an idiot. Unless I explicitly say to take something literally, a person should have the mind open to the fact that what I am saying could very well be metaphorical.

 

Taking all things literally is part of the mechanism that traps a person in worldliness and narrowmindedness.

 

And I did make an offer. I said, if anyone is close by, please feel free to PM me and we'll talk. You can't be that daft. I just don't go advertising. Why not? Because I don't run a business. I don't need to run an advertising campaign to stay afloat. If I get some new friends, that's fine. If not, that's fine too. I am not desperate by any means. I am certainly not closed to the possibility though, and if anyone is sincere, my offer stands. If I like you a lot and I am feeling up for it, maybe I'll even cook you some borsh. I can make a damn fine borsh. I can't cook anything except that one dish, which I learned how to cook because I cannot part from it.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

They need to survive too! However, sometimes most of these so called "guru's," do want more than what they are worth or whatever. I do however, believe that you have to pay for knowledge, why not think of money as energy? You send positive energy towards the teacher and they return the favor with actual knowledge?

[fiveelementtao]

As I suspected. All talk. I will let your words speak for themselves...

and that you might even PAY for it yourself? I mean the teacher might want to PAY THE STUDENT for the privilege of having someone to pass their knowledge onto?

 

I explained that I didn't mean that literally. I didn't suggest the teacher literally pay the student.

I almost never speak 100% literally. I speak about 50% literally and 50% metaphorically. Anyone who takes me 100% literally is an idiot.

(I heartily agree)

 

Unless I explicitly say to take something literally, a person should have the mind open to the fact that what I am saying could very well be metaphorical.

 

How very convenient for you. You can say whatever you want even emphatically and dramtically IN ALL CAPS as if to underscore the literalness of your statement and apply it to anyone else but yourself... and when someone tries to call you on it, you can always point to this quote... I think I will just leave it here...

[Mal]

[fiveelementtao]