why money?

[Jedi777]

Rant Alert directed at all the people how have asked this question on Tao Bums over the years.

 

Do you want a substitute mommy or daddy to give you your spiritual food for free or do you want to be an adult and seek out answers on your own from a place of power? People who whine (and it is whining) about paying for a spiritual teachers insights seem to live in a very weak place. Gimme, gimme, gimme is all I seem to hear but the students dont want to give anything back in return so the student stands back from a place of narrowminded judgement and says.... "You should be giving this to me for free!" That is some truely arrogant and immature bullcrap. Grow up! Get out of your welfare mentality. Teachers are just people and on that note when I start my site and shill a book or two I am going to charge out-the-ass.

LOL well said!!

[Vajrasattva]

LOL well said!!

 

 

Yes absolutely

 

I just stood in front of the camera and couldn't think of what to say. My problem is that I dont think I failed anymore. For a year or two I thought I did but now I dont think so. Things just get more subtle as the process goes on. In the beginning there are a ton of bells and whistles but as the years ground on the effects of the alchemy just got quieter. I guess my mid-life crisis is over now.

 

Anybody think I mis-represented myself on the videos? On the nine year one I even said I hadn't finished it and in the first one I admitted I am not glowing and levitating. I think I was pretty honest.

 

 

You didn't fail my brother : ) I am looking at you rright now & you have "Clear Light"

 

 

Levitation and all the "hoopla" is not the actual goal as you know. Some siddhis appear on their on that is part of the process but also not the goal.

 

You are a good man & Thanks for your sharing & Honesty

 

The Chopping Wood Carry water is key & part of the deeper aspect which is about integration not SEPERATION.

 

 

Love

 

Santiago

[Ya Mu]

 

The Chopping Wood Carry water is key ...

Santiago

 

Well heck, you're no fun!

[Vajrasattva]

Well heck, you're no fun!

 

 

well it about integrating what you have to live a better life and to help others live better in harmony with the "ONE" and the EARTH.

[Ya Mu]

well it about integrating what you have to live a better life and to help others live better in harmony with the "ONE" and the EARTH.

 

Of course. I was just kidding you.

Far too many think becoming a Taoist/Master/Teacher/etc. will teach them fantastical things so that they will rise beyond having to chop wood carry water. If they ever get there then the realization is I get to chop wood carry water, WOW!

[Mal]

[Guest paul walter]

Yes, I always mean what I say.

I have very little tolerance for bullies. You love to fight and you attack peoples' character with frivolous attacks. I have very little tolerance for that. And like most bullies, when confronted and required to follow through, you chicken out.

That's not what you suggested. You suggested that teachers pay their students for the honor of teaching. when I encouraged you to do just that... Now, you say you are kidding and that I shouldn't take you literally. You chickened out. taking a friend out for dinner one time is not teaching. Again I challenge you to follow through with your example of paying someone on a regular basis to follow your teachings. Anything else you mention is a friendship relationship not a teacher relationship. You are too smart not to know the difference. If you follow through and pay someone to learn from you, I will be very eager to see the result of that experience. If not, I know you are all talk and someone to ignore...

 

 

You're really angry/paranoid. the posts you are replying to from 'Goldisheavy' are the most even, grounded,simply true,provable posts on this topic AND I 'practice' living and giving in this way too.

[fiveelementtao]

You're really angry/paranoid. the posts you are replying to from 'Goldisheavy' are the most even, grounded,simply true,provable posts on this topic AND I 'practice' living and giving in this way too.

GIH is grounded? You mean the guy who, by his own admission only means 50% of what he says? Well, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion...

It is true, I can be a bull-headed, aggro, pit-bull warrior at times. I am working on it...

 

You're right. I have a strong personal connection to this issue. I have been burned by selfish students. But I have also been the sincere seeker who has been hurt by the abusive teacher... I AM angered by teachers who abuse their power to gain cult followers. I have seen it numerous times and experienced it myself once. And in every instance that I have seen it, the teacher said they didn't want money and just wanted to be friends... And in every instance that I have seen, the teachers either abuse the students or abandon them the moment the students don't meet the emotional or ego demands of the teacher and earnest seekers are deeply damaged by it. I have NO doubt that there are quite a few on this forum who are experiencing this right now... So what I learned and my main point I want to make is... that sacrifice in whatever form you want to use,.. money, service, discipline, devotion to the teaching etc... are necessary boundaries for the protection of the Student. And I wanted to send a heartfelt warning to students looking for a friend and a teacher, to stay away from teachers who won't accept payment in some form. There are predatory teachers out there with real skills and powers and teachings who are looking for students to rob energy from. These teachers do NOT represent real spiritual growth...

So, I am not referring to friends sharing and discussing meditation techniques or good samaritans in the neighborhood mentoring kids for free or those who have no actual experience or training in authentic taoist traditions who think that reading alot of books and indulging in intellectual hair splitting somehow gives them some kind of authority... I am referring to teachers in real lineages of actual traditions of energetic alchemy.

Anyway.. I am ready to drop this. I have overstated my points and I am bored with it. Those that understand what I'm saying are already in the choir and those don't agree probably never will... So, I'm ready to be done with this...

Edited April 1, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[LoneHaven]

I am somewhat over this too. I have learned from this it all depends on the perspective, intent, and situation of both the student and the teacher. I still have a general opinion on this - but it is idealistic from my perspective. This has helped me see the other points of view though, whereas before I was focusing mainly on mine. So thanks all for that.

[Ian]

Thing is, you're never paying for enlightenment. It's not possible. Hand over your x amount of dollars, say "right, where's my enlightenment?" Guru says "right there, can't you see it?"

 

What you're paying for is techniques to get a wee bit more out of your own way, such that enlightenment becomes, if you're lucky, a tiny bit more possible. And the techniques are practical, of the world, developed by work, sometimes applied selectively according to analysis of the student, etc, etc. What's not to pay for?

 

And, by the by, it is possible to have a teacher to whom you pay money, who is also very generous, who is your friend, and who nonetheless will occasionally rip your ego to shreds and expect you to enjoy it. But you gotta both be a bit grown up.

[freeform]

One of my teachers has come up with a fun idea.

 

If you're unemployed, he will 'employ' you to do 'real' work - the work of spiritual growth.

 

Check it out: www.realwork.org

[gendao]

Just some random points and thoughts to consider on the topic:

 

 

- If spirituality and enlightenment are free like air, then why are you even looking for a teacher to give it to you? Can't you just tap into it freely yourself?

 

- Who is more attached to money? He who charges, or he who refuses to pay a cent?

 

- Who ultimately pays for the teacher who spends all his time teaching freely? If his students don't pay, doesn't that just pass the buck down eventually to others who will? The few students I know who are "too spiritual" to work a job - end up "leeching" off those who aren't. To me, that is just not sustainable. That model essentially requires over-unity perpetual motion generators, which we "haven't discovered" yet...

 

- What is more balanced and sustainable for everyone - free trade or fair trade?

[Taoist81]

Just some random points and thoughts to consider on the topic:

- If spirituality and enlightenment are free like air, then why are you even looking for a teacher to give it to you? Can't you just tap into it freely yourself?

 

- Who is more attached to money? He who charges, or he who refuses to pay a cent?

 

- Who ultimately pays for the teacher who spends all his time teaching freely? If his students don't pay, doesn't that just pass the buck down eventually to others who will? The few students I know who are "too spiritual" to work a job - end up "leeching" off those who aren't. To me, that is just not sustainable. That model essentially requires over-unity perpetual motion generators, which we "haven't discovered" yet...

 

- What is more balanced and sustainable for everyone - free trade or fair trade?

 

This is a very good point that seems to miss a major point.

The teachers who do teach for free are often teaching things that can be done by the "common man" (i.e. those who do still contribute to society by working etc. rather than leeching off of it by pretending that being a bum makes you more spiritual than those who work their asses off). They are, therefore, teachers who also have their own livelihoods and don't depend on charging for their teaching. The Work itself is work enough to these teachers. For example, in the A.'.A.'., the oath of the Neophyte you state that you will "deny yourself utterly on behalf of" the Probationers put under your charge. You are still bound by the rule that you cannot accept payment for teaching. The catch is simply that if the Probationers don't do the Work they won't succeed. You devote yourself to your student, but only insofar as they will do the work themselves. You advise them, but it is up to them to succeed. And all the while you both keep supporting yourselves. The Work is never "free", but the price is the Work itself, not money paid to a guru. In this way, you avoid people seeking to teach just to make money. Far too many frauds are out there that do exactly that.

[seadog]

Forget about money or free teaching.Doesn't matter.What does matter is your ability to empty yourself so can obtain the capacity to be filled.

If the teaching is authentic your gonna pay.Pay with your life.

The trick is to make sure what your being filled with is the real deal and not anothers poison.

[goldisheavy]

Just some random points and thoughts to consider on the topic:

- If spirituality and enlightenment are free like air, then why are you even looking for a teacher to give it to you? Can't you just tap into it freely yourself?

 

- Who is more attached to money? He who charges, or he who refuses to pay a cent?

 

These two questions are GOLD. If you were standing next to me right now I would hand over 50 bucks right now. It's worth it. I mean just hearing those questions is very worthwhile and momentous. Let those questions hit your mind for a while. It's worth it.

 

- Who ultimately pays for the teacher who spends all his time teaching freely? If his students don't pay, doesn't that just pass the buck down eventually to others who will? The few students I know who are "too spiritual" to work a job - end up "leeching" off those who aren't. To me, that is just not sustainable. That model essentially requires over-unity perpetual motion generators, which we "haven't discovered" yet...

 

This is a lukewarm question. So so. Personally I have on occasion supported other people to do nothing but to practice meditation. Is it leeching? I don't think so. Leeching implies that the leecher gets benefit while the leechee gets only the burden of the cost and no benefit. That's simply not true. When someone improves themselves spiritually, improves themselves in wisdom and insight through your material means, the benefit accrues not only to the person who improved themselves, but to everyone who surrounds that person, which includes the supposed "leechee" as well. I won't even go into the fact that many great people enjoy supporting others in that manner, and simply the act of offering such support is pleasurable in and of itself.

 

So is it leeching or not? That's very tricky. I pay for internet service, but I feel like I am being ripped off. So even though I get some service for $$$, I feel that I should get 5 times more service or that the same service should be 5 times cheaper. So even though there is actual exchange happening, there is a feeling of leeching.

 

So leeching is not a foregone conclusion by far. In case there is no obvious business exchange, it doesn't necessarily mean there is leeching. In case where there IS obvious business exchange, it doesn't necessarily mean there is NO leeching.

 

So I suggest you don't jump to any conclusions with regard to leeching.

 

- What is more balanced and sustainable for everyone - free trade or fair trade?

 

I'm not sure what is free trade and what is fair trade. Some people would say that freedom to make whatever trades you want is necessary before you can begin to talk about fairness. Others will say that fairness is subjective. Others will say there is no such thing as "free" trade at all, no matter how you slice it, etc. So this is a bit like comparing mushrooms that grow in the sky to the stars floating in the depths of oceans. Maybe in your feelings it's obvious, but if you look at it with less passion and more analytically, it's not obvious at all.

Edited April 3, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

For me personally the essential issue at hand is whether or not charging money maintains the integrity of that which is being taught. I am convinced that a teacher should be financially independant from their students. If a teacher's livelihood is dependant upon whether their students pay them money than what is being taught has a high risk of being compromised. The teacher may hold back from saying what is the best thing to say because they might be worried their students will leave and they will become destitute.

 

This applies to emotional independance as well, if a teacher is emotionally attached to the prestige of 'being a teacher' then once again the integrity of the teaching may become compromised.

 

So regardless of money being charged or not, what is most important in my mind is for the teacher to have achieved material, emotional, intellectual and spiritual independance for them to be an effective teacher.

 

 

PS. I don't charge for my classes by virtue of the fact that I teach at Venerable Master Chin Kung's Pureland Learning College in Toowoomba, Australia. Free to the public classes was one of their stipulations. This morning though one of my students gifted me with a few sticks of incense hand-wrapped in tissue paper ... how nice!

[CarsonZi]

For me personally the essential issue at hand is whether or not charging money maintains the integrity of that which is being taught. I am convinced that a teacher should be financially independant from their students. If a teacher's livelihood is dependant upon whether their students pay them money than what is being taught has a high risk of being compromised. The teacher may hold back from saying what is the best thing to say because they might be worried their students will leave and they will become destitute.

 

This applies to emotional independance as well, if a teacher is emotionally attached to the prestige of 'being a teacher' then once again the integrity of the teaching may become compromised.

 

So regardless of money being charged or not, what is most important in my mind is for the teacher to have achieved material, emotional, intellectual and spiritual independance for them to be an effective teacher.

Brother, you speak the words right from my heart. Thank you.

 

Love,

Carson

[contrivedname!]

hehe this has become quite an entertaining thread

 

 

You're kidding me right?... LMFAO laugh.gif laugh.gif

Listen GIH, put your money where your mouth is. Since you are such a High master. I DARE you to pay money to students here on Taobums to learn from you. Invite them to your home, cook for them, teach them your wisdom and then pay them. Everything i talk about I have experienced first hand or actively am doing now.... Put up or shut up. You are all talk. If you can get at least one student that you are paying on a regular basis to come to your home after work and be your friend/student. Then you can open your steam hole and brag about it. If the student also comes on here and shares the experience, I will listen. But after that craziness, I am not going to pay you any more attention. You are in your own world, buddy.

the bold is my emphasis

 

not quite two hours later...

 

Yes, I always mean what I say.

I have very little tolerance for bullies. You love to fight and you attack peoples' character with frivolous attacks. I have very little tolerance for that. And like most bullies, when confronted and required to follow through, you chicken out.

That's not what you suggested. You suggested that teachers pay their students for the honor of teaching. when I encouraged you to do just that... Now, you say you are kidding and that I shouldn't take you literally. You chickened out. taking a friend out for dinner one time is not teaching. Again I challenge you to follow through with your example of paying someone on a regular basis to follow your teachings. Anything else you mention is a friendship relationship not a teacher relationship. You are too smart not to know the difference. If you follow through and pay someone to learn from you, I will be very eager to see the result of that experience. If not, I know you are all talk and someone to ignore...

 

hmm funny that you accuse someone of being a bully and proceed to (attempt to) bully them

 

i've already quoted him somewhere on here before but it bears repeating (imo), oh and he is the 6th ch'an patriarch, hopefully that is enough of a certification to make his point valid:

 

"Should they fail to enlighten themselves, they should ask the pious and learned Buddhists who understand the teaching of the Highest School to show them the right way. It is an exalted position, the office of a pious and learned Buddhist who guides others to realize the Essence of Mind. Through his assistance one may be initiated into all meritorious Dharmas. The wisdom of the past, the present and the future Buddhas as well as the teachings of the twelve sections of the Canon are immanent in our mind; but in case we fail to enlighten ourselves, we have to seek the guidance of the pious and learned ones. On the other hand, those who enlighten themselves need no extraneous help. It is wrong to insist upon the idea that without the advice of the pious and learned we cannot obtain liberation. Why? Because it is by our innate wisdom that we enlighten ourselves, and even the extraneous help and instructions of a pious and learned friend would be of no use if we were deluded by false doctrines and erroneous views. Should we introspect our mind with real Prajna, all erroneous views would be vanquished in a moment, and as soon as we know the Essence of Mind we arrive immediately at the Buddha stage."

 

doesnt the story go, that hui-neng was an illiterate wood cutter?

 

cheers,

chris