Why teach taiji?

[Trevcaru]

How is Tai Chi different from sneezing or from sweeping the floors or boxing?

 

 

Well, tai chi isnt a thing, its a way. The advancement of tai chi skill isnt rooted in forms, it comes about when we question, or are able to feel fragmentation in movement. If we are simply imitating, then there is no real tai chi. Imitating the form is the lowest level of learning, but then we see the principle as the result of sensing our fragmented movement, then the spirit is. Anything we do, then, is tai chi. This is called Zhuangfa, to be aware of the structure at all times.

[Stigweard]

[goldisheavy]

Edited April 2, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Mal]

What is the purpose of such question?

 

Perhaps to establish if you are talking out your ass

[mYTHmAKER]

Tai Chi form is a big joke, isn't it? Admit it. How is Tai Chi form better than spontaneous movement? Let's see it. How is it better than a boxing form? Than yoga? Than salsa dancing form? Is it uniquely good? If yes, how? I've never heard it explained, because it can't be explained! What I have heard are apologies though, like this, "Well, it looks wimpy, but it's very powerful. I can move 10 lbs of force with just 1 ounce, watch this... OK pretend you punch me... OK... PSSSSSSS AAAAARRRGGG PRRRRRR SSSSSSS CRAP .... AAARRGG OK OK... can you relax buddy? I can't move your arm at all, and now I am exhausted, red faced and out of breath. Crap, I guess I cannot move 10 lbs with 1 ounce after all, but let's pretend I can so I can continue the class, Jeez.... this is embarrassing..."

 

I don't think Tai Chi is bogus, by the way. But is its coolness disclosed to the student right away? Is it introduced? Or do you make the student waste time, money and suffering for 10 years before you deign to teach them the real Tai Chi?

First of all, that's a good thing to say during an introductory lesson. That paragraph is already head and shoulders above what I heard from my fake Tai Chi teacher. Still, what IS Tai Chi? How is Tai Chi different from sneezing or from sweeping the floors or boxing?

I think that's great. More power to you.

 

Obviously you have left too many tai chi classes too soon because you were - are - judgmental.

Your questions belie the fact you know absolutely nothing about tai chi.

To compare it to yoga is nonsense as yoga is not a self defense art.

Tai chi's coolness - to quote you is inherent in the form - only problem is the beginning student is usually not capable of grasping it as is obvious from your statements. A sensetive one however can sense something special is happening.

And yes one can disappear and follow and move 10 pounds of a wise ass with one ounce of force.

[goldisheavy]

Perhaps to establish if you are talking out your ass

 

Interesting. So if I am from a famous lineage, you'll bow down to me and worship my words. And if I am not, then I am talking out of my ass. Right? So what I am saying actually makes no difference at all, right? It's all about who and what is backing me up, yes?

 

And yes one can disappear and follow and move 10 pounds of a wise ass with one ounce of force.

 

Maybe I'll get luckier with my next teacher. I'll keep my mind open.

[Mal]

[goldisheavy]

Edited April 2, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Mal]

[Stigweard]

I truly appreciate your 'contrmplative analysis' frame of reference. However I really must emphasize that the only way to know Taijiquan is to 'be' Taijiquan. It is purely an experiential process. And the only way to allow that to happen is to drop your preconcieved ideas of what Taijquan is and is not, engage in the training of this beautiful artform over the long term and experience the process of Taiji unfolding within you.

 

[Mokona]

Some traditions keep that sort of esoteric info to themselves until they consider someone ready for the information. Its always best to ask right away what is taught, and if they don't mention it be sure to ask: "Hey, do you teach the esoteric side? Does this class deal with the energy or just the form itself?"

 

Sometimes you have to press in, but it is good to be polite, otherwise you may be shown to the door.

 

Gold, if you would like some practices, simple repetive forms work really well. Even just a single form. I'd suggest learning to feel energy in meditation first, then working to a point where you can move, and still stay in a relaxed state and feel the energy, at least alittle. Then be aware of what it does as you go through a single form or simple few movements.

 

In this way you can learn on your own what the forms do, or if you see something similar a foundation is already set that will allow you to judge for yourself before hand.

Sometimes, before walking into dojo's or even Tai Chi Chuan classes I can feel the energy emninating before I reach the building.

[goldisheavy]

I truly appreciate your 'contrmplative analysis' frame of reference. However I really must emphasize that the only way to know Taijiquan is to 'be' Taijiquan. It is purely an experiential process. And the only way to allow that to happen is to drop your preconcieved ideas of what Taijquan is and is not, engage in the training of this beautiful artform over the long term and experience the process of Taiji unfolding within you.

 

 

Stig, that would be great, wouldn't it?

 

I envision my teacher as a fountain of wisdom. As a friendly, and warm person. Maybe a young person. In a vision I once had my teacher was like a 20 year old guy and he was a Buddha. Which is to say, I am not agist. I don't demand that my teacher be 105 years old in order to be authentic. My teacher doesn't mind talking. My teacher invites me for tea after class, and after practicing and being Taijuquan for 1 - 2 hours, we are being Taijiquan at a tea house. I bring a gift for my teacher's birthday. When my teacher needs to move some stuff, I come over and help load the truck. We joke around and laugh. One day my teacher tells me he's had enough. He builds a funeral pyre and asks me to light it. He hops on top. And I light it without hesitation, regardless of the laws or implications.

 

Nice dream ah? Why would you settle for less? If I never meet some teacher like that, I have vowed that I myself will become this teacher. I will not rest until it is done.

Edited April 2, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

Stig, that would be great, wouldn't it?

 

I envision my teacher as a fountain of wisdom. As a friendly, and warm person. Maybe a young person. In a vision I once had my teacher was like a 20 year old guy and he was a Buddha. Which is to say, I am not agist. I don't demand that my teacher be 105 years old in order to be authentic. My teacher doesn't mind talking. My teacher invites me for tea after class, and after practicing and being Taijuquan for 1 - 2 hours, we are being Taijiquan at a tea house. I bring a gift for my teacher's birthday. When my teacher needs to move some stuff, I come over and help load the truck. We joke around and laugh. One day my teacher tells me he's had enough. He builds a funeral pyre and asks me to light it. He hops on top. And I light it without hesitation, regardless of the laws or implications.

 

Nice dream ah? Why would you settle for less? If I never meet some teacher like that, I have vowed that I myself will become this teacher. I will not rest until it is done.

 

My friend you are welcome for tea anytime. Let me know how you take it so I can be prepared.

 

[Sunya]

[minkus]

Taiji is for the elder generation and a bit wimpy said my Chen teacher after demonstrating how you can break someone's spine in about 0,3 seconds.

 

Mildly shocking yes

[Sunya]

[VCraigP]

Are you a troll?

 

I seriously think your just a troll.

 

 

Darin

 

Your accomplishments are reflected in your kindness and compassion. Your seemingly wilfull unwillingness to accept gih for what he is.

 

 

PS - Don't feed the trolls.

 

Lovya man.

 

Craig

[Taiji Bum]

Darin

 

Your accomplishments are reflected in your kindness and compassion. Your seemingly wilfull unwillingness to accept gih for what he is.

PS - Don't feed the trolls.

 

Lovya man.

 

Craig

Thanks. It's the mystery that gets me. I can get obsessed with solving mysteries.

[Yuen Biao]

And what's REALLY shameful is that when you join INTERNAL arts like Tai Chi, a lot of times you are taught nothing but external movement, which is a HUGE JOKE!!! You go to an internal art, specifically with the mind set to learn something internal, and you find out it's nothing but physical movements, and even those are not very impressive? See what I am saying?

 

I am giving you guys GOLD here. I am telling you what no one has the chance to tell you. When I left my Tai Chi class, I didn't tell them why. I bet they wanted to know. How often do you get negative feedback? Probably never, right? I guess either never or almost never. People just don't show up one day and then you are left wondering why. I wanted to give you something to think about.

 

"GOLD"? Get real, you can generalise all you like but the facts are different.

 

Personally when I began Taijiquan classes we were taught a balance of standing meditation and Taiji forms and the trick was to have the same 'feeling' or flow with your movement as when in meditation. This is why Taiji is often referred to as 'movement in meditation'. We are of course talikng about a martial art here and self-defence at its simple interpretation.

 

I understand where you are coming from though as many schools unfortunately teach Tai Cheese which is predominately focused on health and external movements. 'Real' Taiji takes some time to find both in terms of a teacher and your understanding.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Yuen Biao

[mYTHmAKER]

IMHO Goldisheavy in general you are too in your head and give advice and opinion without

any understanding or substance - as if you know what you are talking about -

which is not the case.

Hopefully most people won't take you seriously.

You can't spend your life reading about water and never actually getting wet or submersing yourself.

[doc benway]

Skeptical attitudes about Tai Ji Quan's martial potential and training methods are widespread for good reason. It looks like there's a lot of hocus pocus to the beginner and intermediate student. In addition, lot's of Tai Ji Quan programs and teachers don't understand the true martial methods and basically pull postures out of the form and apply them as one would with kung fu or any other martial art - that's not Tai Ji Quan. Your questions are worth answering for me because, as I said above, teaching is what helps me to understand at a deeper level. So, like it or not, here are some of my ideas:

 

This is wonderful, isn't it? So you will show me how to apply Tai Ji Quan to all my movements? And that's what I will be practicing and not a pre-fab form, right? Right? Right? I hope so. Otherwise you're lying to me at least a little bit.

I won't show you how to apply TJQ to all of your movements. I'll teach you a set of exercises and a method of practicing them and the principles to be mindful of during your practice. If you are diligent, over a period of a few years you will gradually develop skill in utilizing the principles of Tai Ji in your Quan. A critical part of the method that is used in all schools of TJQ is form practice.

I might have made that mistake. If so I apologize. But I meant form rather than movement. Movement is unavoidable. What about form though? Tai Chi form is a big joke, isn't it? Admit it. How is Tai Chi form better than spontaneous movement? Let's see it. How is it better than a boxing form? Than yoga? Than salsa dancing form? Is it uniquely good? If yes, how? I've never heard it explained, because it can't be explained! What I have heard are apologies though, like this, "Well, it looks wimpy, but it's very powerful. I can move 10 lbs of force with just 1 ounce, watch this... OK pretend you punch me... OK... PSSSSSSS AAAAARRRGGG PRRRRRR SSSSSSS CRAP .... AAARRGG OK OK... can you relax buddy? I can't move your arm at all, and now I am exhausted, red faced and out of breath. Crap, I guess I cannot move 10 lbs with 1 ounce after all, but let's pretend I can so I can continue the class, Jeez.... this is embarrassing..."

The form is a key component to the training method. Practicing the form with careful attention to certain principles (found in the Tai Ji Classics of the various schools) is how you develop the integration of awareness, intention, and physical movement. The specific postures don't matter at all but the way one moves into and out of them as well as attention to details like balance, posture, muscle tension, yi, and so on... are critical. The reason the specific martial postures are used in the form is because those postures do become useful later, after the Tai Ji principles become firmly seated in your body. The form is also good for conditioning the body but that is not the primary purpose from a martial perspective. The form is not martially useful as a form. It is a brilliant method for developing a quality of movement and awareness in the practitioner. To master the martial movements, there are many other training techniques - solo drills, two person drills, strengthening exercises, flexibility exercises, neigong, meditation, and so on. The form, however, is the foundation.

I don't think Tai Chi is bogus, by the way. But is its coolness disclosed to the student right away? Is it introduced? Or do you make the student waste time, money and suffering for 10 years before you deign to teach them the real Tai Chi?

If the student has martial interest I will often do a little martial demonstration to show it's potential but I don't dwell on that in the beginning because it's more distracting than useful. There is no way to teach real Tai Ji using a short cut. It's a long path (side bar - Tai Ji Quan used to be called long boxing. Since it's a short range fighting method there are conflicting explanations for that name. I think it was called long boxing because it was such a slow training method but I could be totally wrong about that). Tai Ji Quan is more experienced and discovered by the student than taught by the teacher. As a teacher, I can teach the form, drills, principles, and so forth. The only way the student will ever learn "real" Tai Ji Quan is by diligently training using methods that don't appear on the surface to be effective in the beginning. I could tell you exactly how to do "real" Tai Ji Quan in about 10 minutes and that knowledge would be of no value - you'll never figure out how to make it work without putting in the "10 years of time, money, and suffering." If you do the drills and practice the form while mindful of proper principles, you will eventually discover the physical feeling and method of Tai Ji Quan movement. If you want a quick method of fighting, try Muay Thai, BJJ, or Krav Maga - all very effective and you can get pretty good pretty quickly.

Still, what IS Tai Chi? How is Tai Chi different from sneezing or from sweeping the floors or boxing?

It's a lot different than sneezing or boxing but a little bit like sweeping the floors, in fact. Tai Ji Quan is a method of fighting that empasizes the use of sensitivity, awareness, sticking, yielding, neutralizing, and hitting with short force (fa jin). You attach to your opponent, stick to them, follow their movement, and capitalize on their mistakes from very close range. It utilizes a lot of joint locks, sweeps, take downs, and strikes using the skills of proper posture and timing. It's a bit like Aikido. If you separate from your opponent you have no choice but to use hits and kicks as in other martial arts but that's no longer the Tai Ji method. One of the martial principles of Tai Ji Quan is:

Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui, Bu Diu Ding which translates something like:

Stick, Adhere, Link, Follow, Do Not Go Against Or Separate

 

 

When I left my Tai Chi class, I didn't tell them why. I bet they wanted to know.

I hate to be the one to break this to you but it's also possible that they were celebrating...

[goldisheavy]

I hate to be the one to break this to you but it's also possible that they were celebrating...

 

Blah... you have no idea how polite I can be when I want to hide some of my soul. When I go to Tai Chi class, I assume my "perfect student" role, because I don't want to disturb the teacher with my personality right away! I want to give this guy a chance. If I open up completely right away, that will easily disturb the teacher and prevent him from opening up himself. Alternatively maybe the teacher will open up much faster than otherwise. But I want to see how the teacher treats an ordinary person. Does the teacher have love? Does the teacher view all people as God(s)? I suss it out very quickly and easily.

 

I've been in a martial arts class before. It was 5 animal styles and I was one of the best students in it. The teacher loved me. I was quiet. I was disciplined. I was able. I always followed instruction and never screwed around. I quit that class because I am not interested in purely physical development. That's what I do calisthenics for. I also quit it because I didn't like the relationship that the teacher was cultivating. I could see his method. He was giving us "the real deal" in a sense of traditional Chinese teaching. He didn't spare us. He didn't go easy on us. And I appreciate that the teacher was rough with us. But while I like physical roughness I don't like the emotional disconnect and distance and I don't like the absence of wisdom either.

 

So I'll never study any wu shu unless it's Chuang Tzu that's teaching it.

 

P.S.: I think you'd be a decent teacher. I might have stayed with you for a few months at least unlike the teacher I encountered, provided you could do something with my punch when I am not willingly cooperating with your demonstration.

Edited April 3, 2009 by goldisheavy

[doc benway]

But while I like physical roughness I don't like the emotional disconnect and distance and I don't like the absence of wisdom either.

 

So I'll never study any wu shu unless it's Chuang Tzu that's teaching it.

 

P.S.: I think you'd be a decent teacher. I might have stayed with you for a few months at least unlike the teacher I encountered, provided you could do something with my punch when I am not willingly cooperating with your demonstration.

I think you'd like Tai Ji for a while but I wonder if you can put "you" aside for long enough to really dig deep enough. And to be honest, it's not for everyone but you certainly don't loose the emotional connection. One of the most difficult things for me about becoming a teacher was navigating the relationships with the other instructors and the students - you get very connected. Pushing hands and working the two person drills can really be awkward as well due to the emphasis on sensitivity when interacting with other people.

 

I genuinely appreciate your vote of confidence in my teaching ability based on nothing but my words - if we get a chance to meet I hope my response to your punch doesn't disappoint!

[Mal]

[goldisheavy]

I think you'd like Tai Ji for a while but I wonder if you can put "you" aside for long enough to really dig deep enough.

 

Yes I can put on a different "me" instead of the usual "me". You know there is no way to get rid of oneself completely, right? Even if you assume the identity of empty space, you're then empty space. If you assume the identity of having no identity, then you are still distinct from that which does have an identity. If you assume the identity of having a flexible identity, you're then different from that which is inflexible in its identity and so forth.

 

That's contemplation for you.

 

But I know what you mean. I would be kind and open. I would shut up and listen. I would then cultivate diligently every day or whatever schedule is advised. That's exactly how I behaved in the one martial arts class I did take (for 6 months). I wasn't clowning around. I was serious about following all the instructions, perhaps too serious sometimes.

 

And to be honest, it's not for everyone but you certainly don't loose the emotional connection. One of the most difficult things for me about becoming a teacher was navigating the relationships with the other instructors and the students - you get very connected. Pushing hands and working the two person drills can really be awkward as well due to the emphasis on sensitivity when interacting with other people.

 

It's not awkward to me. I like other people and I like touching them too. And I like when other people touch me. I can imagine some fools on this forum will take this the wrong way, but screw it. It's the truth. I am not scared of being close to someone. I can pop a zit on a stranger's back if asked. It doesn't phase me one bit. I even like to be punched. I don't mind a split lip, or a bruise. I wouldn't want to get my rib cage broken, but I don't mind being punished a little bit.

 

I genuinely appreciate your vote of confidence in my teaching ability based on nothing but my words - if we get a chance to meet I hope my response to your punch doesn't disappoint!

 

Well, I do like you. It's not a big deal. It's not like I am a flawless judge or anything, but I do OK.

 

So our students are elderly and all have various injuries.

 

... snip ...

 

Thanks for sharing that! That was an interesting read. The best demonstration I got was from someone practicing southern style praying mantis. What surprised me was how this guy was breathing into my nose and ear while punching and kicking me. I've never encountered anything like this before. He said that invading personal space is the trademark of his style. I thought it was interesting. And he was very fast. I would pay 200 bucks to see this guy go up against a Tai Chi guy. Would be fun. Try to stick and follow something so fast and close and personal.

Edited April 3, 2009 by goldisheavy