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[AugustLeo]

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[goldisheavy]

Have any Toabums experienced this?

 

What other confirmatory experiences of successful Inner Alchemy (from any tradition) have you experienced?

 

Augustleo

 

Confirmations are tricky things. They range between being meaningless to being meaningful only to a particular practitioner.

 

Just to throw one random example at you, one time some Buddhist practitioner had a dream of cutting many many people's heads off. Wow! What a terrible dream. Surely a sign of bad karma, right? The teary-eyed practitioner goes to see his master and master tells him it's an excellent sign. It means he will enlighten many many people. See? Does this mean master is right and student is wrong? Not at all. It means experience is empty of its own essence. It's malleable. It changes based on interpretation and many other factors.

 

It's possible to get some inner certainty from some experience, and in that sense it can be like a confirmation. But what it is and how it works is a mystery. Certainly it's not something that is universal and can be described in objective terms.

 

To give you an even more extreme example, take day to day experience. To an enlightened person, normal day to day experience is a confirmation of enlightenment. The exact same experience is a confirmation of being stuck in the cyclical mundane world to the non-enlightened. How can the same experience confirm two different things? It's because it is empty (which is to say, it lacks own-essence, which is to say, it has no inherent meaning -- it has any number of meanings, but none of those meanings is inherently THE meaning).

Edited April 1, 2009 by goldisheavy

[AugustLeo]

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[fizix]

I'd hope that a general sense of happiness/bliss and detachment of the superficial ego would be universal confirmatory signs of the successful practice of any Taoist/Inner Alchemy discipline. However, of course there are going to be different experiences/signs of success for different practices, and, as goldisheavy aptly put it, these experiences/signs could very well be related to successful practice, but might not be interpreted as so in the face of the practitioner, but even quite the opposite. Good luck Tao bums =)

[AugustLeo]

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[fizix]

In the spirit of discussion, with respect to the topic of inner alchemy, why do you believe this?

 

Sure . For example, in the Mo Pai nei-dan school there is a very specific sign/experience that occurs when you have fully filled the Dan Tien with Yang chi, there is no missing this. This specific sign would not occur without the Dan Tien being at its full capacity to store chi, thus it is somewhat unique to said practice/other practices that emphasize the Dan Tien, so doing Senior Sunday Tai Chi unfortunately will not bring about this 'confirmatory experience'.

 

I also know of another school that is closely similar to the Mo Pai, except it emphasizes the crown chakra instead of the Dan Tien the most, and puts more emphasis on the other chakras, unlike Mo Pai practice, which affects chakras passively through practice. This school focuses heavily on the function of the third eye, astral projection, and general energy-esoterica.

 

With focus on certain aspects of certain practices, it is my opinion that certain experiences/signs will occur with respect to each practice, which would otherwise be unknown. As I am sure a Kunlun or KAP practitioner may experience specific parallels/signs, a student of Mantak Chia may not (cough cough )There is nothing wrong with this; there should be no bitterness in knowing that you may not experience every possible spiritual signpost/siddhi.

 

However, in terms of non-energy/non-physical signs of progression, I believe any practice which involves calming the mind will induce near-identical, desirable results.

 

I know this may not fit well with those who believe there is truly only one "real/working" practice, thus there must only be a handful of specific signs, but I firmly believe that the possibilities of each practice, deemed worthy or not, are endless in regard to energy development/reaching state(s) of enlightenment.

Edited April 2, 2009 by fizix

[AugustLeo]

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[goldisheavy]

Okay, thanks. That raises the question: what does successful Inner Alchemy even mean?

 

Watch out. With questions like this you're dangerously close to becoming a contemplator. You might actually become an immortal if you keep questioning.

[Taiji Bum]

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited April 6, 2009 by winpro07

[Taiji Bum]

Ive watched people going through the formation and rising of the immortal fetus. The gestation period is different schools varies. The actual experiences has been much shorter than depicted in all recorded information I have found. Very older systems belonged to very different kinds of humans and perhaps govern our potential too much.

Can you cite sources and examples please? How many people have you seen go through the immortal fetus process? Can you describe what your calling the formation and rising of the immortal fetus? (This stuff is my life! )

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited April 6, 2009 by winpro07

[Mokona]

I have a personal definition of successful inner alchemy. When a perspective is permanetly changed in some way.

- Which is the part that involves contemplating, sometimes journalling, and even meditating so it can sink into the subconcious. Cleaning the mind removes blocks. Its tangable when it happens. Changing persepctive allows me to dig deeper into my own energy reserves, and the more I know about myself the easier it is for me to mvoe energy in the first place, and understand what I'm feeling or looking at when doing the internal work.

Internal energy practice, such as Vase Breathing - is confirmed from my experience when the heat starts and bliss is felt. There are different stages of fire/heat. Also different stages of bliss.

Enough of meditative practices, inner energy movment, and training the mind - and changes in perspective come without reaching for it. Mystical experiences start to happen more often. More critters and sometimes companions from the void start to show up..

 

Anyway - that is just my experience. It's slower than it sounds becuase I have trouble with time management and I tend to lose motivation by the end of the day.

 

Hmm, outside confirmation can come from people. Meditating near friends tends to start balancing out energ imbalances and does some more subtle healing. An friend of mine who has trouble falling asleep was watching tv next to me on the couch while I meditated next to him on the floor. I recieved a quick visual of drops of red flowing between us, and he just sort fell over and slept for about for about 5-10 minutes. He woke up estatic and kept telling me how wonderful he felt and started shaking my shoulders. Which took me out of meditation and startled the hell outa me.

 

Another example of the effects that can develop from internal work can be a time when I was walking through highschool. I was practicing expanding and contracting my 'aura' with the in breath and exhale. and older teacher jumped as I walked past and quickly exclaimed that she didn't hear a thing but that she clearly felt me walk past her. I didn't ask her to say anything and I didn't wait for an explanation. It was an interesting thing though.

 

Hopefully, if I can find a better way to manage my stress from my new USN job and find more time to work on myself I can start having more fun experiences like that again.

 

It might not be related, but I think when the inside changes, the outside changes. Not just something that is noticeable, but like things are attracted into my life. Realy tangable "good" changes and people, and situations.

It's hard to describe without getting really personal.

[seadog]

Those rare glimpses of true empathy with all life,the simple understanding that nothing is above and beyond true love and compassion.

[hagar]

Those rare glimpses of true empathy with all life,the simple understanding that nothing is above and beyond true love and compassion.

 

I recongize that. But that's also a natural byproduct of trying to live a sincere life too?

 

In relation to signs and internal alchemy, I for one have been practicing (not consistently) for a couple of years without anything dramatic happening. It is actually a very undramatic practice. Painful but straighforward.

 

Two things I have recongized.

1. I become more and more physical. This means feeling like consciousness is moving deeper and deeper into the microcosm of the physical body. A feeling of deep aliveness and extreme intimacy, yet detachment.

2. Purging effects. There is a profound cleansing on a deep energetic level going on.

 

I don't know what this means, but probably that I am just a blundering novice. But, even through intense pain, this practice feels like a long taste of excellent red wine.

 

My teacher actually does not ever speak of signs. The only aspects he has been explaining that will happen are on a Jing level. You will after some time, only have orgasm without ejaculation. If you do not want this to happen, you need to do special practice.

 

h

Edited April 2, 2009 by hagar

[nordisch]

Sure . For example, in the Mo Pai nei-dan school there is a very specific sign/experience that occurs when you have fully filled the Dan Tien with Yang chi, there is no missing this. This specific sign would not occur without the Dan Tien being at its full capacity to store chi, thus it is somewhat unique to said practice/other practices that emphasize the Dan Tien, so doing Senior Sunday Tai Chi unfortunately will not bring about this 'confirmatory experience'.

 

 

Regarding clear signs I can only tell what my yoga teacher said and that confirms the above.

If you have a kundalini awakening practice and if it's your calling to have the kundalini then very clearly one day you will feel the energy going first through the ida and pingali nadis and then the rising of the kundalini through sushumna. And apparently that it is very clearly the same for everybody - of course after many years of hourly breathing exercises and pranayama.

 

Then he also talked about self realization- one's you're self realized you're free and you will know this very clearly. There will be know doubt about that.

 

Regarding the dream of cutting peoples' heads that reminds me of Kali. You know the goddess with all these freshly cut heads that look very blissful on a string. They are very happy because Kali has killed their ego, so that they are free.

[AugustLeo]

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[gendao]

[Taiji Bum]

Very cool - I'd be very curious to know what this confirmatory sign is?Did it look anything like this?

When I saw that Falun symbol I bought every book I could find on Falun Gong but unfortunately the guy designed it without any esoteric/alchemy imput as far as I can tell.

 

This is more like mine.

[baloneyx]

Sure . For example, in the Mo Pai nei-dan school there is a very specific sign/experience that occurs when you have fully filled the Dan Tien with Yang chi, there is no missing this. This specific sign would not occur without the Dan Tien being at its full capacity to store chi, thus it is somewhat unique to said practice/other practices that emphasize the Dan Tien, so doing Senior Sunday Tai Chi unfortunately will not bring about this 'confirmatory experience'.

 

 

Whats the specific sign? Please share

[liong]

In the spirit of discussion, with respect to the topic of inner alchemy, why do you believe this?

Hi Fizix,

 

Are u stident of John Chang ? Because i'm one of the student in Mo Pai School.

Actually if your Tan Tien in the peak of energy, so it is like a stream of power, the Qi will go anywhere u want, just by thinking of it, the Qi will be exist.

It is a marvellous technique and high secret...

According to John Chang itself, He learned the supreme technique after his Shifu died, and then teaching him thru Astral Dimension.

 

regards,

liong

[freeform]

AugustLeo,

 

Here's how I see it.

 

A confirmatory experience involves two things - the experience and what it is confirming...

 

so in cooking - I add a pinch of salt to the stew then I taste it to see if it's well seasoned.

 

Or the same thing in chemistry.

 

The confirmatory experience is always a confirmation of something - it's always a relationship, never just an experience.

 

I can't speak much of alchemy, because I haven't gone through an alchemical process yet, but I have had confirmatory experiences of other practices.

 

There is a practice I used to do a lot called Aspectics - it's very western kind of thing - take any aspect that comes up, ask it questions, with each question leading higher and higher up the chain until suddenly you pop out into profound emptiness. If you don't pop out into emptiness there's something left over.

 

Similarly with the Inner Smile - I would smile to a part of my body until it actually smiles back - not me pretending or wishing that it's smiling back, but unexpectedly it just smiles back - that's another confirmation.

 

I've had very unsteady glimpses of this body of water (the water being a tangible emptiness) at the crown - like a still, dark lake. Then I heard Mark Griffin talk about the lake at the crown as the source for the downwards flowing kundalini - suddenly it made sense.

 

Bradford Keeney who is recognised as a very powerful healer and 'awakener' by the African Bushmen (who practice a similar form to kunlun) - he shares many confirmatory signs... such as receiving songs or gifts (such as a drum or a phone or anything) in dreams. Receiving a song is seen as a very important sign that you're connected to spirit. He also talks of vertical and horizontal lines (horizontal lines interconnect worldly things and vertical lines lead you up to God)...

 

The confirmations and morph change with each cultural context. In the spiritual shakers of St. Vincent receive phone numbers - some receive a number that directly dials into God.

[minkus]

The confirmations and morph change with each cultural context. In the spiritual shakers of St. Vincent receive phone numbers - some receive a number that directly dials into God.

 

Mostly he's to lazy to pick up and i find voicemail so unpersonal :/

[AugustLeo]

.

[freeform]

Mostly he's to lazy to pick up and i find voicemail so unpersonal :/

 

 

Maybe s/he's screening the calls!?