Something basic?

[Pixie]

Hi everyone.

I know pretty much nothing about Taoism so I am feeling more than a little overwhelmed by the amount of information posted in the pinned forums... I need some guidance! I would like to buy a book which is sound and easy to understand - an 'introduction' to Taoism so to speak, which includes a little background history to the path. I really don't know anything about it at all. Any suggestions?

 

And if anyone is in the mood for a questionnaire...

1. Do Taoists believe in God (or a Goddess? or several?)

2. Do Taoists believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell, or any kind of afterlife for that matter?

3. What is the difference between "circular" and "linear" time?

4. What is the purpose of an individual in Taoism?

5. How do Taoists worship?

6. Is Taoism a religion or a philosophy?

7. Are there any sacred texts in Taoism?

 

... I realise that all of these questions have probably been asked thousands of times on this forum but I found it pretty difficult to find any basic answers... so thanks in advance for your time.

 

Pixie

[Taiji Bum]

1. Do Taoists believe in God (or a Goddess? or several?)

Religious Taoists believe in gods but philosophical ones usually dont.

2. Do Taoists believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell, or any kind of afterlife for that matter?

Religious Taoists do but philosphical ones usually dont.

3. What is the difference between "circular" and "linear" time?

I dont know.

4. What is the purpose of an individual in Taoism?

To know, love and serve Tao.

5. How do Taoists worship?

Religious Taoists worship in temples with altars and priests and philosophical ones dont usually worship.

6. Is Taoism a religion or a philosophy?

Both.

7. Are there any sacred texts in Taoism?

The Taoist canon has over 2000 books but there is no central authority to say which ones are gospel or not.

[thelerner]

I liked Padge's definition:

 

"Taoism consists of philosophy, religion, and practice. The Tao is the mysterious force that guides all things, it is what came before heaven and earth, and from it comes all of creation through the mixing of yin and yang or the male and female energies. It cannot be understood by the mind, but it can be experienced and known intuitively. Everything emerges from the Tao, and eventually everything returns to it - we are the waves and it is the ocean.

 

The philosophical side of Taoism is about understanding different ways in which we can live a more harmonious life, by flowing with life rather than against it. The Tao Te Ching emphasizes virtues such as humility, flexibility, softness, non competitiveness, limiting one's desires, and becoming like a child again -- which leads a person to living a content and happy life.

 

The practical side of Taoism includes things such as Tai Chi, Chi Kung, and Taoist Yoga. These are ways of getting in touch with the life force energy, Chi, which is present in each and every thing. Taoists believe that sickness is caused by blocked chi in the body, and that the optimal condition is to have our chi flowing through our body unobstructed, and the aim of Chi Kung is to guide and circulate this Chi through the body so the overall functioning of one's system is strengthened and enhanced. Tai Chi is considered a soft martial art applied with the internal power of Chi, which applies the laws of yin and yang in its actions. Taoist Yoga is concerned with attaining spiritual immortality/enlightenment and longevity.

 

I probably wouldn't go into the religious side of it, but I might mention the two common schools - Highest Clarity which was popular in the Tang dynasty who's emphasis was on personal cultivation and spiritual development, and the school of Complete Perfection which is a monastic school that synchronizes teachings of Daoist cultivation of the body, Buddhist meditation, and Confucist ethics, and practices Inner Alchemy to attain spiritual immortality.

 

 

Although that would all have to be said over a tea or coffee . In short, Taoism is about finding harmony and balance in one's life, and cultivating the qualities that help a person attain this balance.

 

This post has been edited by padge: Feb 28 2009, 01:00 AM "

 

Darin nicely points out the split between religous and philosophical Taoists. While there is no Taoist bible, the Dao De Ching comes close(IMHO though even that is not without controversy). I really like how Padge put it, Tao is the ocean, we are the waves. To me its about finding balance and harmony. Feeling nature within and without.

 

 

Michael

[Pixie]

1. Do Taoists believe in God (or a Goddess? or several?)

Religious Taoists believe in gods but philosophical ones usually dont.

2. Do Taoists believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell, or any kind of afterlife for that matter?

Religious Taoists do but philosphical ones usually dont.

3. What is the difference between "circular" and "linear" time?

I dont know.

4. What is the purpose of an individual in Taoism?

To know, love and serve Tao.

5. How do Taoists worship?

Religious Taoists worship in temples with altars and priests and philosophical ones dont usually worship.

6. Is Taoism a religion or a philosophy?

Both.

7. Are there any sacred texts in Taoism?

The Taoist canon has over 2000 books but there is no central authority to say which ones are gospel or not.

 

Thanks for replying so quickly, I'm really amazed at how friendly and helpful everyone has been so far. I haven't really experienced this from any religion before.

I like that Taoism embraces both religion and philosophy. In Christianity I used to struggle with the commandments to have a "child-like" faith and to not ask questions... My feelings about that were something close to, "Why would God give me intelligence if I'm not allowed to use it?"

I think I am going to find this very interesting to study, even if I don't adopt it as a religion myself. Thank you

 

Pixie

 

Hi thelerner, thanks for your reply! Everyone is being so helpful, I'm amazed.

So far I am finding Taoism very interesting to study in that it openly acknowleges the many different aspects of life. As I said in my reply to DarinHamel, I used to struggle in Christianity with the concept of "child-like" faith, of not asking questions - it was like an insult to my intelligence!

Could you tell me any more about Inner Alchemy? That sounds quite interesting. Do all Taoists practise it?

 

Pixie

[trailmaker]

Thanks for replying so quickly, I'm really amazed at how friendly and helpful everyone has been so far. I haven't really experienced this from any religion before.

I like that Taoism embraces both religion and philosophy. In Christianity I used to struggle with the commandments to have a "child-like" faith and to not ask questions... My feelings about that were something close to, "Why would God give me intelligence if I'm not allowed to use it?"

I think I am going to find this very interesting to study, even if I don't adopt it as a religion myself. Thank you

 

Pixie

 

Hi thelerner, thanks for your reply! Everyone is being so helpful, I'm amazed.

So far I am finding Taoism very interesting to study in that it openly acknowleges the many different aspects of life. As I said in my reply to DarinHamel, I used to struggle in Christianity with the concept of "child-like" faith, of not asking questions - it was like an insult to my intelligence!

Could you tell me any more about Inner Alchemy? That sounds quite interesting. Do all Taoists practise it?

 

Pixie

 

 

glad you're settling in - orientation is the first step. easing over from formal religious backgrounds is a process

endured/enjoyed by many.

 

i grew up a new england protestant, and studied/practiced taoist ways ever since without ever feeling like i was

'straying' from what is tao in christian values. what's really neat is there's no hype, and you can take your

sweet time about studying/practicing. you're not running out on anything, you're bringing the good stuff

with you. same when you go somewhere from here, eh?

[fizix]

Do understand however that some would argue that the difference between philosophical/practical Daoism and religious Daoism are night and day; most of the discussion you will find on this forum is concerning philosophical/practical; the two are pretty distinct.

[Owledge]

@Pixie

Did you look "Taoism" up in the Wikipedia?

 

It should be obvious, but I ask because sometimes people are looking for a webpage on the internet and I have to tell them about that secret trick of using a search engine. ... all a matter of practice.

[goldisheavy]

This is just my take on it. It's not authoritative because while I like Taoist writings and sages, I do not claim to be a Taoist myself.

 

Hi everyone.

I know pretty much nothing about Taoism so I am feeling more than a little overwhelmed by the amount of information posted in the pinned forums... I need some guidance! I would like to buy a book which is sound and easy to understand - an 'introduction' to Taoism so to speak, which includes a little background history to the path. I really don't know anything about it at all. Any suggestions?

 

And if anyone is in the mood for a questionnaire...

1. Do Taoists believe in God (or a Goddess? or several?)

 

Taoists believe in immortality. Even the so-called philosophical ones believe it, except the difference is in what is immortal. One of the primary Taoist sages, Chuang Tzu, acknowledges impermanence. Impermanence is embraced fully by Chuang Tzu. But there is a sense of something immortal in Chuang Tzu as well. Maybe call it something timeless or beyond-mortal. Something transcendent. The religious and alchemical Taoists believe that you can give birth to an immortal body right from your physical body, and then you can emerge in that new body. This new body grows in your physical body regardless of your gender, and the process of how to grow it is secret and there are many disagreeing bits of information about it. Some say it's a purely spiritual process. Others say you have to ingest mercury and other chemicals. And so on. There are also rumors that Taoists who have attained immortality disappear from their coffins. Like there is a story of one master's coffin being opened after burial, only to find his robe and staff and shoes but no body, or something like that. So there is all kinds of discordant information about immortality within Taoism. Taoism is kind of famous for its diversity of viewpoints. It's not as neatly organized as some other religions/philosophies.

 

2. Do Taoists believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell, or any kind of afterlife for that matter?

 

Yes. In philosophical Taoism it's not as important, but the answer I think is still yes, even in the philosophical Taoism.

 

Hell and Heaven are living conditions that are created by your own mind and they manifest like actual places, like this Earth, but even so, just like this Earth, it's nothing but mind.

 

3. What is the difference between "circular" and "linear" time?

 

Never heard the term "circular". I think people talk of linear and non-linear time though. Linear time is when events progress along a well ordered time line, and this time line is considered to be set in stone, so to speak. It doesn't change. It cannot be reinterpreted. It cannot be exited or entered. It just exists as is and time marches forward along such line. A concept of non-linear time was "invented" to address the short-comings of the time as we know it. In non-linear time, the time flow is not absolute. In other words, there is an experience of time, but is time going quickly or slowly? It's hard to say. Is even B definitely and always after event A? That's flexible. Using non-linear time, you can go back and forward in time. An experience of timelessness is meaningful within non-linear time, but if you think in terms of linear time, a concept such as "timelessness" doesn't refer to anything and makes no sense at all. So "non-linear time" is a way to enrich our language to talk about more diverse and stranger experiences than normal conception of time would allow.

 

For example there is a story of one guy wanting to become a Taoist immortal, but he wasn't sure. He thought maybe earthly life was good. Maybe not. As luck or fate would have it, he met a Taoist immortal. This immortal gave the guy a pillow and told him to sleep on it. So the guy falls asleep and in his dream he is born, raised and lives an entire earthly life, with all kind of troubles in it. So he lives something like 60 years or more worth of time in his dream which lasts only say 8 hours of time. So non-linear time is a concept you can use to refer to an experience like that. As the guy wakes up, his mind is made up. He decides that he's had more than enough of earthly life and it's time for him to become an immortal.

 

4. What is the purpose of an individual in Taoism?

 

To enjoy life! The entire purpose of Taoism is to maximize enjoyment. Things like spiritual practice, kindness, contemplation, they improve the quality of life. And that's what it's all about. When people try to enjoy life in a naive manner, they often face obstacles and disappointment. So enjoyment of life actually requires wisdom, because if a person tries to enjoy life in a foolish manner, then a period of enjoyment is quickly followed by intense suffering.

 

5. How do Taoists worship?

 

Philosophical Taoists don't worship. They contemplate and meditate. Alchemical Taoists may not worship either. They practice alchemy and meditation, but they usually are weak in contemplation. Religious Taoists worship Taoist gods by lighting incense, and making offerings. The way I understand, Taoist gods are kind of distant and don't really care about humans. Taoist gods used to be humans at one point. As they evolved spiritually, they helped other humans to evolve also. But once they reached a high level of evolution, they enter into realms of being that are imperceptible by ordinary humans and thus they don't really care about the old human realm, cause they have a new life to live in a new world, so they have their hands full.

 

So in this sense, Taoist gods are more like examples of what is possible and not necessarily something to worship, but still religious Taoists light incense and make offerings.

 

6. Is Taoism a religion or a philosophy?

 

It's a way of life, so it's a philosophy first and foremost. But people can't help themselves and often form religions around certain cool concepts. I don't think Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu were religious at all. But after they died, religious Taoism appeared and people started to worship those guys, along with other deities.

 

7. Are there any sacred texts in Taoism?

 

The 3 primary ones, as I understand it, are: Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, and Lieh Tzu. There are many many Taoist texts, but unfortunately most of the are untranslated. I've seen some Taoist texts of surprisingly low quality when compared to the three primary ones though. So I don't think it's surprising that people don't hurry to translate all of them, because not all of them are of even quality. But there are also many untranslated gems.

Edited April 3, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Eric23]

A nice book on philosophical Taoism is The Watercourse Way by Allan Watts. Of course you should get a copy of The Tao Te Ching.

[Mal]

[WhiteTiger]

Edited April 3, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Pixie]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! *still stunned by the helpfulness*

 

trailmaker, I like your take on it - that Taoism has its place among all religions without being intrusive or contradictory. Do you feel that you practise Taoism as an addition to your existing faith?

 

Hardyg, I did try looking it up on Wiki but unfortunately it seems to crash my browser (I'm using Safari so a lot of sites don't work on it). I will probably download Firefox to use as an alternative when this happens.

 

goldisheavy and WhiteTiger, thanks for giving me such detailed answers to my questions, that has cleared up a lot of things. It's interesting that some choose to follow Tao as a religion and others as a philosophy, although, I think it makes more sense as a philosophy as there are no particular deities to worship in Taoism.

 

Eric23 and Mal, thanks for the book suggestions, I will try to get hold of copies of those.

 

fizix, thanks for the advice - I have noticed that and I am more interested now in studying it as a philosophy rather than as a religion.

 

---

 

Onto the next dumb question! I understand that ch'i is spiritual energy and that it's important to one's health and wellbeing... but can anyone tell me about it in more detail? What are the ways of influencing ch'i? Do you get different strengths of ch'i in different people - can it be "grown" over time?

Thanks all

 

Pixie

[trailmaker]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! *still stunned by the helpfulness*

 

trailmaker, I like your take on it - that Taoism has its place among all religions without being intrusive or contradictory. Do you feel that you practise Taoism as an addition to your existing faith?

 

Hardyg, I did try looking it up on Wiki but unfortunately it seems to crash my browser (I'm using Safari so a lot of sites don't work on it). I will probably download Firefox to use as an alternative when this happens.

 

goldisheavy and WhiteTiger, thanks for giving me such detailed answers to my questions, that has cleared up a lot of things. It's interesting that some choose to follow Tao as a religion and others as a philosophy, although, I think it makes more sense as a philosophy as there are no particular deities to worship in Taoism.

 

Eric23 and Mal, thanks for the book suggestions, I will try to get hold of copies of those.

 

fizix, thanks for the advice - I have noticed that and I am more interested now in studying it as a philosophy rather than as a religion.

 

---

 

Onto the next dumb question! I understand that ch'i is spiritual energy and that it's important to one's health and wellbeing... but can anyone tell me about it in more detail? What are the ways of influencing ch'i? Do you get different strengths of ch'i in different people - can it be "grown" over time?

Thanks all

 

Pixie

 

 

hi pixie - i practice only philosophical taoism, and have since age 18. taoism IS my existing 'faith'. i hesitate to use the term faith, as it can have so many confusing connotations. the old religious/philosophical

'compare and contrast' discussion on knowledge, belief, and faith, doesn't enter into my daily living (practice)

of taoism. i just make a point of it here to illustrate the sort of cumbersome construct-bound thought that

taoists generally 'cast off'. letting go of such habits is one of the objects of taoist practices such as meditation.

[Pixie]

hi pixie - i practice only philosophical taoism, and have since age 18. taoism IS my existing 'faith'. i hesitate to use the term faith, as it can have so many confusing connotations. the old religious/philosophical

'compare and contrast' discussion on knowledge, belief, and faith, doesn't enter into my daily living (practice)

of taoism. i just make a point of it here to illustrate the sort of cumbersome construct-bound thought that

taoists generally 'cast off'. letting go of such habits is one of the objects of taoist practices such as meditation.

 

Ah okay, sorry, I got confused ^^ (this happens a lot...particularly just now as I have the flu, blagh). How do you go about practicing philosophical Taoism? I understand that religious Taoism involves incense, giving offerings, that sort of thing, but I figure this isn't the way you go about things.

 

Pixie

[trailmaker]

Ah okay, sorry, I got confused ^^ (this happens a lot...particularly just now as I have the flu, blagh). How do you go about practicing philosophical Taoism? I understand that religious Taoism involves incense, giving offerings, that sort of thing, but I figure this isn't the way you go about things.

 

Pixie

 

 

besides breathing practice, meditation, and all such approaches to cultivating awareness of tao(consciousness),

the aim of continuing study of taoist texts/commentaries is to cultivate and make quite routine ('automatic'?)

the daily stream of one's responses to situations, difficulties, diversions, etc, in effective ways that don't

conflict with core taoist teachings (principles) (lao tzu, chuang tzu, et al) that is how i practice philosophical taoism (and the 'tao of social psychology', if you will).

[Ian]

Onto the next dumb question! I understand that ch'i is spiritual energy and that it's important to one's health and wellbeing... but can anyone tell me about it in more detail? What are the ways of influencing ch'i? Do you get different strengths of ch'i in different people - can it be "grown" over time?

Thanks all

 

Pixie

 

 

First off, both in this question and all the others you've been asking, be advised that there is never one universally accepted answer.

 

You'll have to form your own opinions in the long term, and for choosing harmless and enjoyable ways to investigate it usually boils down to finding people you'd quite like to be more like and doing a bit of what they do.

 

So... chi is generally held to be in some sense imbetween jing (lumpy matter, coarse sexual energy) and shen (light, spirit ) So it can be felt, and can flow, and sorta makes everything, maybe.

 

If your chi flows unobstructed you will be healthy, most probably. Getting it to flow unobstructed can be attempted by:

 

One) Chi Kung (qigong), which is (usually) gentle movements with or without intention, visualising, directing. (big arguments here)

 

Two) Nei Kung (neigong), which is internal and less obvious to spectators, and depending who you ask, dangerous/impossible or v.v. simple.

 

Three) Meditation, which has some overlap with Two), but not much, usually. Meditation can mean a hundred different things, and there are further arguments as to whether it or chi kung is better for energetic health.

 

In addition to unobstructed flow, some people also try to gather and increase chi, sometimes as a first step towards having enough stored in the belly to convert it for other purposes, sometimes just to feel all energised and vital.

 

I think pretty much everyone is agreed that belly breathing is good, and that being in nature is great but you don't want to get dependent on it, and that not being pulled all over the place by negative thoughts and emotions is good. But I can't offhand think of anything else that everybody agrees on.

 

Hope that helps. There is way more. Chew slowly, I'd suggest.

 

Ian

[Pixie]

besides breathing practice, meditation, and all such approaches to cultivating awareness of tao(consciousness),

the aim of continuing study of taoist texts/commentaries is to cultivate and make quite routine ('automatic'?)

the daily stream of one's responses to situations, difficulties, diversions, etc, in effective ways that don't

conflict with core taoist teachings (principles) (lao tzu, chuang tzu, et al) that is how i practice philosophical taoism (and the 'tao of social psychology', if you will).

 

Ah, I see, that makes sense. It is a way of life and affects everything you do. It must have taken you a long time to reach a point (or maybe it is one of those things you never stop reaching for).

Say you respond to a difficult situation to the best of your ability, but it turns out to be a mistake: do you feel guilty, and if so who do you ask forgiveness from? Coming from an entirely Christian background that is something that affects me a lot, a plaguing feeling of guilt when I haven't kept up to "standard".

 

Pixie

 

First off, both in this question and all the others you've been asking, be advised that there is never one universally accepted answer.

 

You'll have to form your own opinions in the long term, and for choosing harmless and enjoyable ways to investigate it usually boils down to finding people you'd quite like to be more like and doing a bit of what they do.

 

...

 

I think pretty much everyone is agreed that belly breathing is good, and that being in nature is great but you don't want to get dependent on it, and that not being pulled all over the place by negative thoughts and emotions is good. But I can't offhand think of anything else that everybody agrees on.

 

Hope that helps. There is way more. Chew slowly, I'd suggest.

 

Ian

 

Hi Ian, thanks for your reply! Since there are so many different opinions, perhaps ch'i is something that is individual to each person, like the soul, but it is also connected with everything else. I'll be sure to read into this once I get hold of some books.

 

Pixie

[trailmaker]

Ah, I see, that makes sense. It is a way of life and affects everything you do. It must have taken you a long time to reach a point (or maybe it is one of those things you never stop reaching for).

Say you respond to a difficult situation to the best of your ability, but it turns out to be a mistake: do you feel guilty, and if so who do you ask forgiveness from? Coming from an entirely Christian background that is something that affects me a lot, a plaguing feeling of guilt when I haven't kept up to "standard".

 

Pixie

Hi Ian, thanks for your reply! Since there are so many different opinions, perhaps ch'i is something that is individual to each person, like the soul, but it is also connected with everything else. I'll be sure to read into this once I get hold of some books.

 

Pixie

 

 

in doing one's taoist best, making a mistake still can happen often, and hopefully less and less. when it doesn't

fly, one waits in reflection on 'why', and when timing seems right, solutions are further sought - or maybe

one does nothing. lao tzu wrote 'when there is enough remorse, there is no blame'. 'guilt' as so many

feel it is not a driving force on the way to consciousness of tao. in contemplating tao, and so seeking a little

clarity, one lets go of guilt, and all such thought-clutter, and strives to act in ways that keep the possibility

of guilt out of the picture.

[Pixie]

in doing one's taoist best, making a mistake still can happen often, and hopefully less and less. when it doesn't

fly, one waits in reflection on 'why', and when timing seems right, solutions are further sought - or maybe

one does nothing. lao tzu wrote 'when there is enough remorse, there is no blame'. 'guilt' as so many

feel it is not a driving force on the way to consciousness of tao. in contemplating tao, and so seeking a little

clarity, one lets go of guilt, and all such thought-clutter, and strives to act in ways that keep the possibility

of guilt out of the picture.

 

Ah I see, so it is a prevention rather than cure approach - and where we most often feel guilt we find the areas we most need to work on. That makes a lot of sense, thanks!

 

Pixie

[thelerner]

Speaking of Basics, I like Michael Winn's stuff, particularly his Fundamental II DVD which has some very good chi gung routines. He has extensive courses at the Healingtaousa website.

 

One of my favorite Tao CD's is from Minke DeVos, her Tao Basics CD has 4 guided meditations, Microcosmic Orbit, Energy meditation, Sexual Energy meditation and Full Body w/ exploration of organ/spirits. All have music and sound effects w/ them, they're very well done; not as good as a real class, but close and they're repeatable. You can find them at the Silent Grounds website, though Minke can be slow to ship.

 

Guided meditations like hers are a good way to get a feeling for what you're reading about.

 

 

Michael

[Pixie]

Speaking of Basics, I like Michael Winn's stuff, particularly his Fundamental II DVD which has some very good chi gung routines. He has extensive courses at the Healingtaousa website.

 

One of my favorite Tao CD's is from Minke DeVos, her Tao Basics CD has 4 guided meditations, Microcosmic Orbit, Energy meditation, Sexual Energy meditation and Full Body w/ exploration of organ/spirits. All have music and sound effects w/ them, they're very well done; not as good as a real class, but close and they're repeatable. You can find them at the Silent Grounds website, though Minke can be slow to ship.

 

Guided meditations like hers are a good way to get a feeling for what you're reading about.

Michael

 

Thanks for your reply! As I am new to this, I'm currently focusing on getting to grips with the philosophical concepts. From there I plan to move on to the practical aspect if I find I agree with what Taoism teaches. Thanks for suggesting these DVDs to me, when I am ready to incorporate the practical side I will definitely try to get hold of them.

 

Pixie

[WhiteTiger]

Thelerner, even though those DvDs are great I really wouldn't suggest learning anything until, well you actually have a teacher in front of you teaching some basic Chi Gong set/form or a nice Tai Chi class.

 

the person to person connection is really important, imo especially if you find, get a good teacher.

 

That is of course when you start getting comfortable with some of the philosophies Pixie, if you get comfortable with them.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Mal]

[Pixie]