Drugs or Meditation?

[Sunya]

Edited April 4, 2009 by mikaelz

[nac]

Unlike meditation, drugs can cause irreparable damage to your brain. Needless to say, they're also spectacularly ineffective as far as spirituality is concerned:

 

William James thought he had recorded the ultimate mystery under the influence of nitrous oxide. On returning to his normal state, he eagerly consulted the paper on which he had scrawled the great message (DeRopp, 1968).

 

That message?

 

Hogamous, Higamous,

Man is polygamous.

Higamous, Hogamous,

Woman is monogamous.

Edited April 4, 2009 by nac

[Pranaman]

i agree with him

Edited April 6, 2009 by Pranaman

[Owledge]

Very enlightening essay.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Yes e-sangha is awesome, what can I say?

[Unconditioned]

I don't entirely disagree with the article however I do believe, from personal experience, that taking a drug can open someone up to the possibility of a different view of reality. It can loosen the rigidity of what we believe to be 'real'.

 

Now that said, I think someone can become trapped with drugs, addicted, ruin their physical body, ruin their minds, etc. I've seen some close friends lose their 'lives' (the way they live) to drugs - it consumes them and they live for the drug.

 

Is this any different though from any other addiction or tool towards understanding? That's an open question not a leading one!

[Pranaman]

I don't entirely disagree with the article however I do believe, from personal experience, that taking a drug can open someone up to the possibility of a different view of reality. It can loosen the rigidity of what we believe to be 'real'.

 

this is my experience too, I was able to be opened up to yoga and taoism because drugs shook me up. In the end, my fascination with the information that tickles my intellectual bone like energetic model of realty, quantum physics, fractal geometry etc.. all this started to clutter my hallucinating mind, it took me farther from the short and simple path that is currently providing me with a great way of living. That's the loop I took to land where I'm at.

[33865_1494798762]

These are not the words of a lama but the words of a ignorant, fascist, dealer, a desperat businessman who knows nothing other about drugs or meditation, than the fact that he is about to lose a fat, prosperous source of income - peoples ongoing state of fear!

 

He can not compete with drugs, they are just so much cheeper and way faster than years of chanting or cavediving. But that even doesnt matter either,

 

Neither drugs, books, any teaching or meditation induces anything at all in man. The experience of those are all in the category of drugs - stimuli, and it's all about the expectation, not about what is actually happening.

 

The article is genuin bullshit only on a higher level.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Guest

[33865_1494798762]

Unlike meditation, drugs can cause irreparable damage to your brain. Needless to say, they're also spectacularly ineffective as far as spirituality is concerned:

 

It is not true. It is the expectation to a drug and that goes for meditation as well, that create an response. According to physiological science, no drugs can cause a psychotic state. One will have to have a damaged brain from the very start. And the statistic claims that people who is borderline/-psychotic tend to benefit more from drug using than the general population, and so they will use it more frequently. A massive use of any stimulant's, not only meditation or drugs will fuck up people.

It gives a picture to the ignorant idealist that drugs are dangerous when in fact they are no more dangerous to people than the books of the schools, churches or libraries.

Drugs are just molecules, for the most part sugar. Deal with that and realise that the entire experience is all in the mind not in the sugar, or the letters of the books.

 

It is the thought that is the enemy - one day maybe you kind of people will try to forbit that too!

Edited April 7, 2009 by Guest

[Sunya]

[33865_1494798762]

 

 

 

Look into his eyes and see if he's bullshitting.

 

you my friend, are LOST. the typical egoistic attitude of a druggie, tossed up negative emotions, know it all attitude, acting like you're backed into a corner when your habits are questioned, making up ridiculous excuses and calling a Buddhist monk "fascist and ignorant". Very sad.

 

Name someone who has gotten enlightened through taking drugs and I will ask a mod to delete this thread. And if you can't, then you will stop, deal?

 

By enlightened I mean seeing the true nature of things, waking up to the truth of no-self, impermanence, the way of the Tao, and no longer suffering due to attachment. furthermore filled with nothing but compassion for every living being. Please name someone who has attained this realization through drugs (and remaining in that state afterwards)

 

How revealing you are, taking it personal and all lol - thank you !

 

I'm not using drugs. oH and speaking of drugs, those are not the addictive part of the suffering, that is why people struckle so hard with addiction - they fight the wrong fight. They brought sugar molecules to a fight that takes place only in an imaginary mental image - it's a fantasy, a mind game.

It is the ego concept which is addictive, not the many ways of stimulants. That is what we defend endlessly.

You of all would know.

 

Get this strait -

You speak of "no-self" yet you speak about "someone" achieving enlightendment (even in the same sentence)?

I agree on the No-self part - There is no self in reality. So infact there is in reality no one to achive anything - There is no enlightendment to achive at all! Now Honey - who is the one "on drugs", who is your daddy?

 

Your old man looks sweet to me, a bit sleepy though, perhaps even stoned. He reminds me of the 70'es hippies - I like that and the colours he is wearing, I infact wear them too, as we speak. Boy, I'm happy and feel so fortunate that I too grow up in the hippie era!

Edited April 7, 2009 by Guest

[DaoChild]

I don't know what people are getting all antsy-in-their-pantsy about.

 

The only reason I don't condone drug use for "spiritual awakening" is because you lose all credibility. Why would / should anyone believe you?

Edited April 8, 2009 by DaoChild

[Owledge]

@m @T

You are both troubled!

 

And so am I.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Hardyg

[goldisheavy]

Edited April 8, 2009 by goldisheavy

[33865_1494798762]

I don't know what people are getting all antsy-in-their-pantsy about.

 

The only reason I don't condone drug use for "spiritual awakening" is because you lose all credibility. Why would / should anyone believe you?

 

 

"spiritual awakening" is spontaneous, it is unpredictable and it has no reason and can not be forced, it just arrives.

[33865_1494798762]

Speaking of drugs - Here is a VERY dangerous fix, not the best cut though*** however, it is still for serius users only!!!

 

***HIGHLY ADDICTIVE!*** (religious people don't go here!)

 

 

Mahler: ADAGIETTO Symphony 5 -Bernstein & Wiener Phil. 1/2

Mahler: ADAGIETTO Symphony 5 -Bernstein & Wiener Phil. 2/2

 

oh, even better - please enjoy

 

Mahler Symphony No. 5 Adagietto Karajan Part 1

Mahler Symphony No. 5 Adagietto Karajan Part 2

 

G'####*Fucking*Ch####t!

Edited April 8, 2009 by Guest

[DalTheJigsaw123]

I think both has it's benefits. I believe that psychedelic drugs are only drugs, that need to be taken. From personal experience I enjoyed both benefits. Drugs provide one way of looking at life and meditation shows a different one. I also do not suggest that anyone depends on drugs, however.

[Pero]

[33865_1494798762]

Oil is just molecules too, but it would be stupid to drink it. Practically everything is made out of molecules, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't matter what you use for your diet or whatever.

 

Just because something is for the most part sugar doesn't make it harmless. Just a small change in structure could change something that is normally edible into a poison.

 

It is still in the expectation to it that ones response is manipulated, and our existence is threatened.

With no expectation or reason at all nothing can harm this body anyway. How ever on the other hand the body will take care of it, what ever it's confronted with, as long as we don't prevent it from happening, and it will do so spontaneously perfectly swift and with no hesitation.

 

Look at the result of the expectation of the bible - endless wars in the world! It's way more dangerous to people and mankind than it's expectation to LSD or cannabis, yet only few dare to forget those books.

 

Why?

It is all in the mind anyway, it is not in the books or temples, in the drugs or letters anyway. No we don't need to take or fight anything at all.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Guest

[mat black]

[Pero]

[Trixter Streetcat]

 

Look into his eyes and see if he's bullshitting.

 

you my friend, are LOST. the typical egoistic attitude of a druggie, tossed up negative emotions, know it all attitude, acting like you're backed into a corner when your habits are questioned, making up ridiculous excuses and calling a Buddhist monk "fascist and ignorant". Very sad.

 

Name someone who has gotten enlightened through taking drugs and I will ask a mod to delete this thread. And if you can't, then you will stop, deal?

 

By enlightened I mean seeing the true nature of things, waking up to the truth of no-self, impermanence, the way of the Tao, and no longer suffering due to attachment. furthermore filled with nothing but compassion for every living being. Please name someone who has attained this realization through drugs (and remaining in that state afterwards)

 

Answering to mikaelz request, I once met a mexican healer who is truly the most enlightened person I have ever met, who had definitely gone beyond duality and had pure, unrefined love and compassion for every human being he encountered. he said the best, most direct to learn was to learn from nature herself, given that plants, unlike men, are not seeking to gain anything from you or manipulate you into believing anything. he was a mushroom priest, and I don't think he ever gave us any other "practice" or "exercises" than listening to what the mushroom had to say and living your life with conscience, and without harming anything or anyone.

 

as to his own development, he was a healer and a great martial artist, so I'm sure he did his own share of studying and practice before becoming what he became. in addition to being the most amazing shroomhead I've ever met, he was also an incurable pot-head, which he said was the "plant of sensitivity" when correctly smoked (this means you have to take away everything that grows from nitrogen and smoke everything that grows from potassium and phosphorus). he had a saying in spanish that would roughly translate to "if you want to be healthy and strong, smoke weed, all day long". he was pretty awesome and quite a character. he was also a fully developed human being, keeper of the ancient tradition, and in charge of handing out "conscience" to other people. he did so through a bowl of purple mushroom stew. and through example, basically.

 

mushrooms do not create long term damage in the brain. according to mac, the healer, they create chemical reactions which are interpreted by the brain as deadly poisoning, and the brain acts accordingly, sending you off into some really profound bardo states that make you think of all your choices and your life and what you did right and wrong so that when you come back, you really tend to change your attitude. working for improvement after the trip is, of course your own responsibility, given that nature has spoken. I do believe CERTAIN drugs to have been placed there by god or the higher intelligence of your choice for the guidance of human beings, as timeless, natural recipients of the dharma. then again, I wouldn't call them drugs. most of them are plants, mushrooms, cactii... LSD is the only synthetic one, but it comes from a mushroom too. you tend to think "hey, if it's there, it must be for a reason". and when you take the mushroom, sometimes you remember what the truth really is, and you remember that the truth is always ever-so-simple...

 

i went into the spiritual path after my first mushroom trip when I was seventeen. It still took me four years to begin meditating, and when I did so, it was more like an offshoot of the whole quest. I do believe sacred substances can and will change someone's perception of the universe and their own lives. but i do think that the self-improvement comes from sustained conscious effort on your own part. a mushroom trip by itself will rarely change your attitude lastingly altogether (unless you got really badly scolded). but it will open the doors to things you would have otherwise never imagined, ergo, never pursued. to be honest, before mushrooms i didn't know what god was, therefore did not believe in it. after my first trip, what "god was" was so clear that I realized i always knew god, and to say that it didn't exist was denying your own "being here". I'd probably still think god was a man in a cloud had i not eaten mushrooms. afterwards, i understood god was pretty much everything, from the essence of things to the harmony that binds them. so that's the difference between your man-made, christian concept of god, and the nature-made, natural concept of god. basically, one makes much more sense than the other.

 

that's why i'd say, granted, substances by themselves will not get you enlightened. i'd rather consider them "supervisors" or "natural teachers" in your own work towards the ultimate destination. people lacking gurus will find great council there. meditation is, on the other hand, an active, consciousness expanding effort. but they dont fall into the same category, therefore, it is useless to compare them. I do resent claims that drugs will mess with your brain. they will, but only for eight hours. every after effect that will remain will be fruit of the neural connections you will have made on the course of your trip. and in that sense, "drugs" do alter your consciousness, and always (however painful it might seem) for the better.

 

i think sacred plants + personal, sustained effort towards self-improvement WILL equal enlightenment, whether you add meditation or not. but in the end, if you have the tools, why not use them?

 

good thread.

 

trixter.

[sasblamthanb]

[33865_1494798762]

"If a brick falls on your head while you're sleeping you will be injured or dead."

 

If a brick falls opon someones head while his sleeping he might move to the side to avoid being hit by that "brick of yours" It happens all the time! - who is a sleep, who is dreaming, who is worrying? (and about what?)

 

 

I see, you have no idea what I am talking about -

 

You can't decide whether a drug will have effect on you or not (except by not taking or taking it, or if you have some siddhi).

 

You can't (decide) for what ever reasons you may have - I can for no reason at all.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Guest

[Mal]