Drugs or Meditation?

[Trixter Streetcat]

Cool story and popeye saying Trixter

NPK being the three major plant nutrients, did he every expand on what that might mean?

 

 

mal,

 

you have to look at what happens to the plant when you feed it what. feeding on nitrogen, the stalk and leaves will grow. feeding on potassium and phosphorus though, the "flower part" will grow. basically you have to look really closely at a "bud" (the weed has to be a minimum quality, and forget about it if it has been compressed). you'll see it's made of a lot of little tear-shaped sort of "bags" (flowers), and these are all covered with leaves and held on stalks. some of those bags have developed seeds in them. all the seeds, as well as every trace of leaf or stalk have to go.

basically the correct, traditional use of pot in mexico rests on the fact that next time you're rolling a spliff (which i don't recommend anyone to), you have to take a lot of time and patience to separate the little tear-shaped little bags from every trace of leaf or stalk. you end up throwing away (what looks like) a lot of weed, but it's only leaves and stalk. what you're left with is a lot of little drop shaped flowers.

basically, nitrogen will make you high anyway you take it in. it will also inevitably make you groggy and tired afterwards (i.e. the late sleepy after effect of pot). what this method does is you not only get 5x higher because you're smoking a same-sized spliff of pure flower, you also tend not to get that sleepy, groggy after effect of weed you always get. that's not an intended effect of weed, that's just because people smoke the nitrogen in it.

granted, it's only really worth doing in a place where you get a LOT of produce. like mexico. if you're getting hydro stuff there's not really a point to picking and choosing. you're probably already paying too much for it anyway.

 

wow. suddenly feel like i'm on yahooka again. hope it's ok to talk about this here.

for the record, weed will slow you down, and is not recommended. but for us incurables out there, better to know the MO, i think.

 

so there it is.

[sasblamthanb]

re

... I once met a mexican healer who is truly the most enlightened person I have ever met, who had definitely gone beyond duality and had pure, unrefined love and compassion for every human being he encountered. he said the best, most direct to learn was to learn from nature herself, given that plants, unlike men, are not seeking to gain anything from you or manipulate you into believing anything. he was a mushroom priest, and I don't think he ever gave us any other "practice" or "exercises" than listening to what the mushroom had to say and living your life with conscience, and without harming anything or anyone.

 

as to his own development, he was a healer and a great martial artist, so I'm sure he did his own share of studying and practice before becoming what he became. in addition to being the most amazing shroomhead I've ever met, he was also an incurable pot-head, which he said was the "plant of sensitivity" when correctly smoked (this means you have to take away everything that grows from nitrogen and smoke everything that grows from potassium and phosphorus). he had a saying in spanish that would roughly translate to "if you want to be healthy and strong, smoke weed, all day long". he was pretty awesome and quite a character. he was also a fully developed human being, keeper of the ancient tradition, and in charge of handing out "conscience" to other people. he did so through a bowl of purple mushroom stew. and through example, basically.

 

 

Stick around this guy for years and you would realize any work or service he did provide was delivered in spite of the drugs - not because of them. Stick around for years and you would find he had unresolved 'issues' - and that statement is in no way dishonoring any wonderful qualities he might carry or the contributions he might make...

[Pero]

[Mal]

suddenly feel like i'm on yahooka again.

 

ROFL Thanks for the info. If you have to smoke a lot get one of these http://www.storz-bickel.com/ Good for all sorts of herbs.

[33865_1494798762]

Why would he avoid being hit by the brickif without having "expectation or reason", "nothing can harm this body"?

Fortunatelly I guess.

 

When being awake we have no clue, so now we can learn, gain knowledge. There is no time so we experience change (the brick) arriving, which is creating time, space and the (brick) experience. This is knowledge and that is what moves the corps away from the arriving missile.

 

I guess you can say that one being without identification is having no preoccupation about anything, we can be no elsewhere. The mind or consciousness is as clear as it is, and so it provide the awaken one with the awareness of the alarming fact that knowledge and change in reality is coming - Deal with it or "it" will deal with you. It is death. The experience of being is coming to an end - but the awaken one is not coming to an end because it ends the experience of coming to an end sooner than the end arrives. The feeling of the energy impuls from the impact of the brick carries no subject identity. It is not hurtfull, no pain and no joy either, just a vibration of energy.

If you like to think that "you" are not a brick, you will soon learn the consequens of the misunderstanding.

 

The brick is a part of the body anyway and one can be no elsewhere than the body - You are it! Expectation or reasons are nothing but dreams - and as being so the "you" is not awake! How can one know?

As such - being awake, one oppose any dream, "choice, otherness or out there" there might be.

 

Knowledge is what kills the question, and sometimes it prevents any further questions from manifest because being awake imply that one is only caring for the question, not the answer. - The answer is only a dream anyway. The awakened can have no interest in harming the body or getting hurt at all - It is it!

Knowledge finish the question, therefor the experience is brought to an end. You don't need to repeat that feeling, besides repitation is the source of pain. So the body just move away and the brick smashes in to the ground in stead of the head of your corps.

Look at how a missile moves the air in front of it away, with no effort at all. It just happens -

 

something there about -

Edited April 15, 2009 by Guest

[nac]

[alfa]

Drugs are better than meditation, because at least the former gives great experiences at once. Meditation is usually dull and boring, and hardly ever gives new experiences.

[nac]

Drugs are better than meditation, because at least the former gives great experiences at once. Meditation is usually dull and boring, and hardly ever gives new experiences.

"Experiences" aren't usually the goal of most spiritual seekers. I agree that a handful of well-timed altered consciousness states can be helpful in the long run. This can help you take your sensory input less seriously than usual, and sometimes even trigger cognitive dissonance. Both Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism has the practice of consuming alchemical substances, I think. I wonder if this is the true function of this practice. However, I must also insist that drugs are dangerous. Other considerations aside, 99.99% of the insights you get from them are bogus. Drugs can create a false impression of spiritual progress, while your wisdom is actually wasting away as your nervous system gets damaged by these marginally poisonous substances. "Stay away" would be my advice.

[Taomeow]

Are we following the FDA in removing the distinction between "drugs" and "sacred plants?"

 

If we are, we're not merely talking apples and oranges -- we're equating apples and Agent Orange.

 

Drugs serve the purpose of exploitation. Sacred plants, the purpose of liberation. Orwell's Big Brother made everyone learn by heart that "war is peace, ignorance is strength" -- but he forgot to mention "exploitation is liberation." Lucky us -- the FDA just went ahead and corrected his mistake, so now everybody knows that sacred plants are drugs. So now we lump together things made in labs and things made by gods and obediently believe they're the same thing. Brilliant.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oun9nCG9qPM...feature=related

[Pranaman]

Trixter and Taomeow have something here.

 

It seems like alot of people, besides Trixter and some others, are on one end of the spectrum or the other, and not the middle. Either psychedelics harm you completely, or they enlighten you completely. I've never met anyone to claim either of these things that resonated a more ego-free vibe then the most enlightened person that I've met.

 

So, my question is -

 

If you learn to be happy, compassionate, loving, free of suffering and judgement, and you are truly at an incredibly grounded inner peace....... does it matter how you got there?

Edited April 23, 2009 by Pranaman

[contrivedname!]

 

If you learn to be happy, compassionate, loving, free of suffering and judgement, and you are truly at an incredibly grounded inner peace....... does it matter how you got there?

 

you just hit the nail on the head, and that reminds me of a quote from lucretius

 

"what may be food to one man, may be rank poison to another" -- different strokes for different folks

[Mal]

[mat black]

.........does it matter how you got there?

It doesn't matter how you got there as long as:

- there was no deliberate suffering imposed on any being

- one was/is honest in cultivation

- the learning to and attainment of being "happy, compassionate, loving, free of suffering and judgement, and you are truly at an incredibly grounded inner peace" comes from discovering it in ones own mind as being innate, and it is not imposed from the outside by substances, particularly intoxicants.

 

Any state attained through the intake of intoxicants is only a chemical manipulation causing a fleeting experience of a type of well being. It is entirely conditional upon the substance and hence cannot be of any genuine and lasting benefit to anyone.

 

There are no short cuts to enlightenment, and the use of intoxiacants is simply about as authentic to cultivation as a person wearing a wig and convincing themself that they have grown hair. Superficial at best, and potentionally dellusional.

Edited April 24, 2009 by mat black

[nac]

I'm not for prohibiting drugs, I'm for talking people out of using harmful substances of their own free will, and for their own benefit.

[contrivedname!]

It doesn't matter how you got there as long as:

- there was no deliberate suffering imposed on any being

- one was/is honest in cultivation

- the learning to and attainment of being "happy, compassionate, loving, free of suffering and judgement, and you are truly at an incredibly grounded inner peace" comes from discovering it in ones own mind as being innate, and it is not imposed from the outside by substances, particularly intoxicants.

 

Any state attained through the intake of intoxicants is only a chemical manipulation causing a fleeting experience of a type of well being. It is entirely conditional upon the substance and hence cannot be of any genuine and lasting benefit to anyone.

 

There are no short cuts to enlightenment, and the use of intoxiacants is simply about as authentic to cultivation as a person wearing a wig and convincing themself that they have grown hair. Superficial at best, and potentionally dellusional.

 

well, i'd posit that "you arent there" if you hit on any of your three bullet points (what i mean is you deliberatly hurt people, or were dishonest, etc.)

 

however your last two points are pretty one sided. i agree that the drug isnt what makes you "enlightened" it is your mind. but saying that drugs are "superficial at best, and potentially delusional", while i agree that they are potentially delusional, is just your preception. drugs alter your preception, so does meditation, so does exercising, so does overeating, so does undereating, so does.... and these are attributable to chemical changes in your brain taking place (e.g. endorphins produced from exercising), or moving into different brain wave states.

 

i feel like i quote this dude to damn much but what the hey i'll do it again:

"whether or not ______ will enlighten you or not, or benefit you or not, all depends on yourself" (fill in the blank with anything please) -hui-neng 6th zen patriarch

[contrivedname!]

i also should have qualified my "anything". by anything i meant anything you do that doesnt involve the creation of or the perpetuation of suffering; dishonesty creates suffering for one or the other so this is necessarily connected to the "perpetuation of suffering".

[mat black]

however your last two points are pretty one sided. i agree that the drug isnt what makes you "enlightened" it is your mind. but saying that drugs are "superficial at best, and potentially delusional", while i agree that they are potentially delusional, is just your preception. drugs alter your preception, so does meditation, so does exercising, so does overeating, so does undereating, so does.... and these are attributable to chemical changes in your brain taking place (e.g. endorphins produced from exercising), or moving into different brain wave states.

The above examples can alter ones perception, but not all in the same way.

Intoxicants impose a sense of wellbeing on the user usually at the expense of the jing or qi (and the clear bright nature of undefiled shen).

Any percieved pleasurable state thus attained is based upon the chemical activity of the substance on the brain/body/mind. It is from an exogenous source, is transient and, pertains to the skandha (usually) of feeling.

To think that the sensations experienced through the skandhas (especially those imposed by intoxicants) can be equated with enlightenment is a misunderstanding.

 

Meditation also changes one's perception, by assisting to strip away the layers of habits, ignorance and afflictions from ones mind. What is potentially revealed is one's own inherent wisdom. This inhernt wisdom and peace is not exogenous and not imposed from an ingested substance as is the case with intoxicants.

The taking of intoxicants and meditation bare no real comparrison to each other.

 

"whether or not ______ will enlighten you or not, or benefit you or not, all depends on yourself" (fill in the blank with anything please) -hui-neng 6th zen patriarch

This statement was not said in regard to drugs. The blank that was left out from the quote was "sutra reciting", not drug taking. Therefore the quote is completely out of context in this discussion.

 

The Master Hui Neng pointed to essence of ones mind. Untainted undefiled.

Edited April 24, 2009 by mat black

[Pranaman]

To think that the sensations experienced through the skandhas (especially those imposed by intoxicants) can be equated with enlightenment is a misunderstanding.

 

exactly, and it's your misunderstanding that people here are trying to argue that.

 

psychotropics have helped me see my out-of-conscious judgements of other people and ideas(my cultural conditioning)...

 

 

You are saying that it's not worth anything that I grew out of hatred and into openness, because I learned of my hidden error while a certain plant was in my body?

 

I'm not saying the psychedelic experience = enlightenment, and neither is Trixter and I don't remember anyone else saying that. What i'm saying, what i've heard, and what i've experienced is that I have alot of hidden judgements, and my psychedelic experiences have made denial of these evaporate and my vision of them clear as day. So, from then on, in my sober life, I can work on growing beyond them.

 

It's simple as that, no tainted happiness, no delusion, no harm, no enlightenment, none of that. Just a simple telescope for that psyche of ours.

[contrivedname!]

The above examples can alter ones perception, but not all in the same way.

Intoxicants impose a sense of wellbeing on the user

 

 

This statement was not said in regard to drugs. The blank that was left out from the quote was "sutra reciting", not drug taking. Therefore the quote is completely out of context in this discussion.

 

The Master Hui Neng pointed to essence of ones mind. Untainted undefiled.

 

your statement about "intoxicants", as you call them, belies your ignorance w/ the types of intoxicants that many here are likely talking about, some psychadellics can be scary as hell; like YOU said "...not all in the same way"

 

of course his statement was refering to "sutra reciting" at that moment to fa-ta, but the meaning of his teaching reaches far beyond a limited conversation w/ fa-ta, which is what i was trying to point out. as the zenster said to fa-ta "He who recites the Sutra with the tongue and puts its teaching into actual practice with his mind 'turns round' the Sutra. He who recites it without putting it into practice is 'turned round' by the Sutra"

 

of course he did that, which further exemplifies our (me & pranaman's) point. the true essence of mind can be neither tainted nor defiled by externals it is the internal delusion which does so. for you to assert the things you have in this post is to contradict yourself.

 

pranaman's last post far better illuminates the potential of the mind correctly focused during that experience.

 

chris

[mat black]

You are saying that it's not worth anything that I grew out of hatred and into openness, because I learned of my hidden error while a certain plant was in my body?

No, I didn't say it's not worth anything that you grew out of hatred etc. That is a wonderful thing. To learn about our errors is great and I honour that.. Just now, I learned that I should have read what you guys were actually talking about.

 

I'm not saying the psychedelic experience = enlightenment, and neither is Trixter and I don't remember anyone else saying that.

Again, my mistake, I should have looked more closely at what you were saying.

 

What i'm saying, what i've heard, and what i've experienced is that I have alot of hidden judgements, and my psychedelic experiences have made denial of these evaporate and my vision of them clear as day. So, from then on, in my sober life, I can work on growing beyond them.

Sounds great, congratulations.

If we were to actually met in person, I'm sure we'd groove and get along fine. I misunderstood some of the points you guys were making, sorry.

 

 

your statement about "intoxicants", as you call them, belies your ignorance w/ the types of intoxicants that many here are likely talking about, some psychadellics can be scary as hell; like YOU said "...not all in the same way"

pranaman's last post far better illuminates the potential of the mind correctly focused during that experience.

Again I wasn't aware of what eactlly you were talking about, I assumed it to be common recreational and illicit drugs. My bad.

But, I still feel that the quote by Master Hui Neng was misplaced and out of context. I certainly think it's not a good idea to leave out phrases or words when quoting a master.

However, I understand and agree with your point:

the true essence of mind can be neither tainted nor defiled by externals it is the internal delusion which does so. for you to assert the things you have in this post is to contradict yourself.

Agree that the true essence of mind can never be tainted. But I wasn't contradicting myself, because what I meant was that most drug use (which is what I thought you were talking about) does cloud one's capacity to realize the true essence of mind. That's why there are precepts against taking them.

Edited April 25, 2009 by mat black

[Pranaman]

If we were to actually met in person, I'm sure we'd groove and get along fine. I misunderstood some of the points you guys were making, sorry.

 

I 100% agree with you about the psychedelic experience not equalling enlightenment. I've heard 60's drug gurus talk about this, like Tim Leary, and it's not only untrue but temporary (based on my experience at least).

 

I wish I could have delivered my side of the story without sounding as harsh as it sounded to me rereading it just now. I'm sorry if I resonated an attack vibe. I tend to defend anything that has done well for me(family, girlfriends, martial arts, meditation, hallucinogens, food). I like you and hope you have a great night.

 

take it easy soul-bro,

Bobby

[seadog]

Matt&Pranaman.

Just want to thank you both.

The good vibes from both your posts has help to lift my spirit,which was sorely in need of lifting today.

 

I remember the wise words of seven year old

"Life is for living now,the light is for later"

At best the most any mind expanding substance can do is to help with the living now.

And perhaps the best any meditation practice can do is help with the light for later.

[sarnam]

I think this is one of the subjects that can never be rectified, I came through the sixties some of my friends were the first people to take LSD on the lower eastside of manhatten better known as the east village I wouldn't take it then but did in the early seventies at that time I read everything around about it when I did take it I made sure that I took it with some one and that their was someone with us who stayed striaght I fasted the day before and spent time reading the Bagavagita my friend on the other hand refused to to do that and went out the night before and met a chick who he fell in love with she soon dumped him so he showed up for the session tired and in a bad mood. Needless to say my trip was wonderful- much of what I had been studying up till that time became real for me , my friend as you can expect had a bad trip our guide who had tripped before was able to bring him along . So it seems the five senses were the tricksters at the tea party and so I took about three trips over a period of thirty years I took the que from the native peoples and approached these trips with deep respect, for someone as dumb and stupid as myself it had value, but in the long run attempting to follow the precepts and cultivateing the buddhas teaching is far superior and each day I bow in gratitude to that. Thanks Sarnam

[mat black]

I 100% agree with you about the psychedelic experience not equalling enlightenment. I've heard 60's drug gurus talk about this, like Tim Leary, and it's not only untrue but temporary (based on my experience at least

It was that kind of angle that I was refereing to in the earlier posts, the reason being that those guys can really have a harmful influence on people, and I know some people who have been screwed up from drugs. I used some affirmative language thinking that the discussion was about the harsher stuff. I only realised this morning that you and contrivedname were not talking about that kind of thing. Woops.

I wish I could have delivered my side of the story without sounding as harsh as it sounded to me rereading it just now. I'm sorry if I resonated an attack vibe.

I feel that same way about what I said, and it's not in my character to be like that. I actually feel reluctant to ever write anyting here as I prefer to keep quite, so if I came accross as abrupt, I feel like real idiot.

Whenever I watch any sport event regardless of how spectacular the game is, my favourite part is always at the end when everyone shakes hands and says "thanks for the game" - it's like they've all become friends again.

With this forum and written type communication, it's so easy to misunderstand the intent behind what people are saying sometimes. Funny how we now realise we were mostly on the same page the whole time.

One thing I always try to do with anyone is clear the air if there has been a misunderstanding (especially when I've screwed up) and keep peace. That to me is the most important thing

I like you and hope you have a great night.

take it easy soul-bro,

Bobby

Thanks for the kind words Bobby. This exchange has reaffirmed my feeling that in essence we all actually want to support each other to find the great peace within our hearts. Wish you all the best mate.

Matt&Pranaman.

Just want to thank you both.

The good vibes from both your posts has help to lift my spirit,which was sorely in need of lifting today.

Thanks John, but you've done it yourself many times for me too. The sincerity and creativity that you express in your posts is something I always appreciate.

**(sorry, I couldn't the quote thing right so I used colour to differentiate the text)

Edited April 25, 2009 by mat black

[contrivedname!]

No, I didn't say it's not worth anything that you grew out of hatred etc. That is a wonderful thing. To learn about our errors is great and I honour that.. Just now, I learned that I should have read what you guys were actually talking about.

Again, my mistake, I should have looked more closely at what you were saying.

Sounds great, congratulations.

If we were to actually met in person, I'm sure we'd groove and get along fine. I misunderstood some of the points you guys were making, sorry.

Again I wasn't aware of what eactlly you were talking about, I assumed it to be common recreational and illicit drugs. My bad.

But, I still feel that the quote by Master Hui Neng was misplaced and out of context. I certainly think it's not a good idea to leave out phrases or words when quoting a master.

However, I understand and agree with your point:

 

Agree that the true essence of mind can never be tainted. But I wasn't contradicting myself, because what I meant was that most drug use (which is what I thought you were talking about) does cloud one's capacity to realize the true essence of mind. That's why there are precepts against taking them.

 

i am sure if we met in real life we'd get along just fine, too. i wasnt really all that upset by your preception, however, i did feel it was wrong, imo, so i decided to refute it

 

i agree that i took the quote out of context, but misplaced... nah i thought (and still think) i was giving a proper interpretation of the meaning behind that particular teaching. i agree that i probably should've mentioned that Hui-neng was referring to sutra reciting somewhere in my post, but i disagree and think it is an excellent idea apply teachings broadly and unhindered by narrow dogma; hammer that maleable gold, we all have differnt temperments and if his teachings couldnt be applied to anything and had no modern use, they wouldnt be very useful in my opinion. to me, it is pretty obvious that "whether or not _____, will enlighten you or be of benefit to you depends on your mind." all situations should be regarded as having the essence of "guru" in them, so it really isnt that much of a leap to [insert your spiritual practice here] when understanding the meaning of what hui-neng was saying to fa-ta at that moment in time, based on his temperment.

 

i dont think you really came off as abrubt (in fact may be overly cautious at times), you have some good insights when you actually post them and i would encourage you to not worry about coming off like an idiot, as long as what you type benefits yourself and possibly others, who cares if some people think you sound like an idiot (good advice for myself as well ) i also appreciate your integrity, something too uncommon in humans these day, imo. nice chat, and i am glad you didnt interpret my silly post as a personal attack

 

@pranaman,

i havent found anything youve written that i have read to be particullarly combative. you simply defended your point of view of something that has benefitted you in your life practice, no harm there, as long as you arent so attached to your opinion as being 'the only right one' that you ignore or intentionally do harmful things to others with differing views. though we havent interacted directly, based on my preception of your posts i believe you have strong integrity as well, good job for that

 

chris