Drugs or Meditation?

[Sunya]

exactly, and it's your misunderstanding that people here are trying to argue that.

 

psychotropics have helped me see my out-of-conscious judgements of other people and ideas(my cultural conditioning)...

 

 

You are saying that it's not worth anything that I grew out of hatred and into openness, because I learned of my hidden error while a certain plant was in my body?

 

I'm not saying the psychedelic experience = enlightenment, and neither is Trixter and I don't remember anyone else saying that. What i'm saying, what i've heard, and what i've experienced is that I have alot of hidden judgements, and my psychedelic experiences have made denial of these evaporate and my vision of them clear as day. So, from then on, in my sober life, I can work on growing beyond them.

 

It's simple as that, no tainted happiness, no delusion, no harm, no enlightenment, none of that. Just a simple telescope for that psyche of ours.

 

 

Psychs aren't bad, there IS no bad. this isn't a morality thing at all, some of you people are getting a bit too defensive here. they just aren't that conducive in the long run for someone on the spiritual path.

 

i took psychs before: LSD, mushrooms, and mescaline, and of course it helped me to become aware of aspects of my psyche and put me more in touch with these shadowy demons, so I did benefit. but I stopped. I found that there is no proper emotional foundation while taking any sacred plant and this lack of foundation is terrible. (whether its Mushrooms, Cactus, or even Ayahuasca) you are handed realizations that you can not integrate yet, and are bombarded with aspects of your personality which you might not be ready for. This does not mean that these plants give you the ultimate insights, and its simply a matter of you not being ready no, i don't think that is the case. I do not think non-dual experience and realization can come from sacred plants, because i think the particular insight that comes from these plants are limited to subtle/astral level and possibly a formless realm (that would be mistaken for non-dual probably), and the insights are usually mixed with a lot of extra glittery bullshit.

 

IF you are given a true insight while tripping, that is wonderful, but unfortunately you will probably forget it, not be able to integrate it, or will also gain a new shiny delusion from the trip as well. You might have an insight into some truth, but Samsara just got a whole lot more interesting because you discovered something really incredible and amazing.

 

So its up to you, choose your method. There is no doubt that Shamanism played a huge role in our society's development, spiritually, but not everything from the past is always the best, new methods are always invented. You wouldn't take an early 1900s U Boat to cross the Atlantic Ocean if you had choice of a private jet, would you? No. the U Boat is outdated and you have no clue where it will take you, or if you'll even make it.

 

I know people who use 'sacred plants' as tools and unfortunately this easy way can become too addicting, the mind becomes too unstable, and no real progress is ever made.

Edited April 26, 2009 by mikaelz

[Pranaman]

In regards to trypts I don't really care about the visions and ideas that tend to only distract people, such as non-duality, insights into the universe, "the way the world works", energy theory, parallel universes, and all this stuff that is just knowledge with no practical gains.

 

that being said, there is one thing I enjoy about psychs, and two things I respect.

The thing I enjoy is the empowered sense of humor, everyone likes laughing and connecting with people.

The first thing I respect, is when the scope is turned towards your ego, clear and un-sugar coated.

The second is that it anchors you into feeling the present experience. The home of change.

 

I think the danger in hallucinogens is thinking too much. If you get thinking too much, you lose the healthy experience of a good atmosphere with an archaic and positive attitude.

 

for me, it's nothing more and nothing less. But that's for me, and I think what everyone has said here is true for them and probably others too.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Pranaman

[Pranaman]

came across this, it's relevant to this thread.

New DVD coming out.

 

it's only 3 min, and it's a quick glance at shamanism, the influence of LSD on some great minds of our recent history, temporary ego-loss, the nature of consciousness. The people, like Denis Mckenna or Rick Strassman, in this film seem very grounded.

Manifesting The Mind Sneak Preview

Edited May 2, 2009 by Pranaman

[contrivedname!]

came across this, it's relevant to this thread.

New DVD coming out.

 

it's only 3 min, and it's a quick glance at shamanism, the influence of LSD on some great minds of our recent history, temporary ego-loss, the nature of consciousness. The people, like Denis Mckenna or Rick Strassman, in this film seem very grounded.

Manifesting The Mind Sneak Preview

 

Dennis McKenna's brother Terrance McKenna has written an excellent book on the subject called "Food of the Gods"

[CarsonZi]

Dennis McKenna's brother Terrance McKenna has written an excellent book on the subject called "Food of the Gods"

Yes that is a very good book. I would also recommend "The Cosmic Serpent, DNA and the Origins of Knowledge" by Jeremy Narby which is at least as informative as Food of the Gods if not moreso.

 

Love,

Carson

[erdweir]

I think this article makes a good point, but it also inadvertently admits that lsd can give you an expanded view of sorts in the midst of trying to show you how it cant take you all the way. You need mental discipline for that or you will just be tossed around by random associations vomited up by your disordered unconscious. fair enough.

 

That being said, i think it's being pretty hard on all drug use, and doesn't take into account shamanistic practices, which have their value.

 

I myself had a wonderful experience on mushrooms in which i healed myself of 90% of chronic joint pain on the left side of my body. the shrooms helped me feel all of the tense muscles in my body and i spent hours isolating each one and stretching them out. the next day my chronic pain was gone. it still comes back sometimes if i eat bad food or something, but it isnt as strong and doesen't last long. i healed myself with the aid of the drugs where acupuncture and western medicine has failed, and I wasn't tormented by my demons one bit. I didnt go back and take it over and over again looking for cheap Nirvana. I am not really interested in trying to use drugs as a short cut.

 

In that sense this article is dead on, Drugs are not a short cut or substitute for self mastery. But contrary to the opinion he gives, they are not devoid of benefit, and they can help in certain situations. Most people take them just to get high though, and there's nothing particularly evil or divine about that. I'm talking about psychedelics here. Americans consume an awful lot of drugs, and we should think about why we do it more, and do it for better reasons. this goes way beyond illegal drugs, we are throwing pills at kids instead of paying attention to them and acting like we are doing the right thing. Adults find it easier to take pills than learn to meditate too much of the time too.

 

I think LSD and other drugs can be of psychological help, look at the LSD therapy movement of the 50's before it got hijacked by the CIA and turned into a mind control program called MKULTRA. see Acid Dreams for details.

 

on the other side you have people like Timothy Leary and Terrence McKenna who just tell you it will fix everything, and this is obviously nonsense. Read Mckenna's True Hallucinations if you want to hear an account of abuse of sacred substances. His brother had his mind shattered in the Amazon, and he was trying to decode his psychobabble instead of helping him. Disgusting. Leary also informed on his protectors to get out of prison. Is being a rat enlightened? Hardly. See Acid Dreams for this story as well.

Edited May 4, 2009 by erdweir

[Deepbluesea]

To each his own, in my opinion there is no way someone could tell me that I didn't have the most incredible spiritual events of my life under the influence. Is it sad? Maybe so. But there are plenty of cultures backing up the spiritual nature of psychotropics: Native Americans throughout the Americas used a variety as a spiritual pilar.

 

I am at another point in my life though. And my experience is that psychotropics can get you to the door, maybe even give you a peek through the keyhole, but to get through the door you really need something else. And that is why I am here, to read about the things others are trying to do to get through the door (or not trying, or not even thinking about trying, or just being empty, or just being full ...).

[erdweir]

To each his own, in my opinion there is no way someone could tell me that I didn't have the most incredible spiritual events of my life under the influence. Is it sad? Maybe so. But there are plenty of cultures backing up the spiritual nature of psychotropics: Native Americans throughout the Americas used a variety as a spiritual pilar.

 

I am at another point in my life though. And my experience is that psychotropics can get you to the door, maybe even give you a peek through the keyhole, but to get through the door you really need something else. And that is why I am here, to read about the things others are trying to do to get through the door (or not trying, or not even thinking about trying, or just being empty, or just being full ...).

 

I agree, drugs can give you a peek in the door, maybe something more, but I am more interested in doing it through my own body/mind. although we should respect serious traditions like the native american church, but i am not lining up for a peyote ritual. to each his own...

[Deepbluesea]

... or maybe at least show some that there is a door. I don't think at the time I knew there was a door and I didn't know how "big" (for lack of a better term) things were. But I also know a lot of people that used plenty and it was just for fun for them, I don't think that they got much of a spiritual benifit out of it.

 

I think that it takes years of mind, body and spiritual work to go further ... disciplined commitment, not a couple slivers of paper and ten hours.

[erdweir]

... or maybe at least show some that there is a door. I don't think at the time I knew there was a door and I didn't know how "big" (for lack of a better term) things were. But I also know a lot of people that used plenty and it was just for fun for them, I don't think that they got much of a spiritual benifit out of it.

 

I think that it takes years of mind, body and spiritual work to go further ... disciplined commitment, not a couple slivers of paper and ten hours.

 

You said before one could not tell what kind of experience someone might get from drugs, and maybe that is true, but as practitioners of taoist meditation or whatever, maybe we want more than just a nice experience? we want permanent expansion of consciousness, or to dissolve consciousness altogether?

 

I myself have wanted to go beyond drugs for quite some time, and have finally done it. I made myself feel like i was on acid, with a heightened state of awareness, just from meditation, and now I an trying to get more control over it so i can do it whenever i need to.

 

but back to the door, allot of adepts have said that drugs can show you that there is something there, but they cant really help you live there. I would agree with this. It fits my own experience.

 

On the other hand I dont know that much about shamanism. I would assume that any shaman worth his peyote is doing more than gobbling buttons. And peyote is pretty new to most native american tribes, its use dates back only about 100 years. so these guys were adopting it into an already established tradition of seeking visions and thus might have more of an idea of how to use it. they are not just getting high in other words.

[xvegangirlx]

There is never any good reason to use drugs. They do NOT expand the mind, nor do they lead to enlightenment....It is a sad joke to think drugs can acomplish what meditation can. It is all a lie and a deception.

 

There is no "quick fix", magic bullet or pill.

[Pranaman]

This is a rather major experience, post #7 by hippie3.

HUGE experience

Edited May 5, 2009 by Pranaman

[33865_1494798762]

[Deepbluesea]

There is never any good reason to use drugs. They do NOT expand the mind, nor do they lead to enlightenment....It is a sad joke to think drugs can acomplish what meditation can. It is all a lie and a deception.

 

There is no "quick fix", magic bullet or pill.

 

 

 

As I responded previously, I didn't know a "door" existed until I used psychotropics. I would agree wholeheartedly that my experience did not lead to "enlightenment" -- a term which is really absent of definition to me at this point.

 

I obviously don't know where I would be at this point in my life if I had not had SEVERAL extremely spiritual experiences under the influence. But I highly doubt I would have pursued the course of my journey that have placed where I am now.

 

Its great to hear though that some out there have determined definitivley (in caps) that their way is the only way to enlightenment and the Tao. Perhaps you can write part two of the Tao Te Ching with all of your presumption.

 

I'm just saying that I got a little help getting to where I am, I am happy that I am where I am, I am just walking down a road that my collective experiences have demonstrated to me to a road worth walking down, and those collective experiences included the use of pychotropics.

 

Like I said, I'm glad to hear that you have a complete understanding of the Tao.

[33865_1494798762]

There is never any good reason to use drugs. They do NOT expand the mind, nor do they lead to enlightenment....It is a sad joke to think drugs can acomplish what meditation can. It is all a lie and a deception.

 

There is no "quick fix", magic bullet or pill.

 

Sorry but I think you missed the point.

The root of the word meditation is shared by an other word medicin - in modern terms: drugs.

There is a reason for that - It is exactly the same thing, the body responds to boths in the very the same way, in fact it does so to all stimulants.

Only our personal reasons and expectations to the stimulants, ad an angel or dimension of subjective identity to it.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Guest

[Pranaman]

Edited May 5, 2009 by Pranaman

[33865_1494798762]

[King Kabalabhati]

"There is never any good reason to use drugs. They do NOT expand the mind, nor do they lead to enlightenment....It is a sad joke to think drugs can acomplish what meditation can. It is all a lie and a deception."

 

In my experience, it's not that simple, though you're probably right in almost every way.

 

I used to smoke cannabis daily for many years. Then once I started Qigong I quit because i didn't feel like it anymore (end of addiction). Then I came upon a new hard challenge in life.. I had to dig into my anger (check the jealousy thread). Sitting at my kitchen table I realised this was the time to take cannabis, if ever. I know it irritates the liver so I couldn't let go of the idea that I should smoke it though I didn't feel like smoking at all, there was no (conscious) desire for it, the thought of inhaling smoke didn't appeal to me.

 

I puffed some Sativa that I had left from my former homegrowing. Then I started connecting to the liver.

Things happened instantly, I was relaxed but in full anger and letting it all flow. After that things have been going towards healing, my meditation is more calm, I don't plan nor feel any need to smoke any more. BUT this few puffs I took were definately a tool.. Not something I couldn't have done without, no no. But still there was no harm done and there was a lot of rapid healing while "under mi sensi".

 

So while I agree that for meditation there's no substance that could help you (except sattvic diet in general), for working with emotions, if you know what you're doing and are truthful to yourself, cannabis for example MAY be of assistance, especially where the process must be "kick-started" to avoid unnecessary, lengthened suffering. Once the emotions are moving and the process is on, then pure meditation without additives is the way to go.

 

Love, King K

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Years ago, I used to be into mescaline entheogenic journeys, and have some San Pedro cacti still growing in my back yard, as I like the mescalero plant spirit. The problem is that there is some sort of creature, a pack rat I'm guessing, who constantly devours this cactus. All my other cacti are untouched, but I will watch the gnawing marks continue regularly until the entire cactus is eaten away until even with the ground. Obviously, the animal world is interested in expanded consciousness as well, I can only barely imagine what a tripping pack rat's visions might be!

 

San Pedro cactus (Trichocereus Pachanoi) is legal, and can be found easily in many nurseries in warmer climates. It contains mescaline and many other psychoactive alkaloids, giving it a different energy/experience than Peyote (Lophophora Williamsii) when ingested. It is a rapidly growing columnar cactus, and I am really tuned in to them from my days experimenting and journeying with that plant spirit. As I said, I no longer do, but I love having powerful plant allies surrounding me, so I continue to grow them. I love they way they look when they are big and healthy specimens.

Edited December 11, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Otis]

99.99% of the insights you get from them are bogus.

LOL! This reminds me of the joke: "87% of all statistics are made up on the spot!"

 

I do hear a great deal of people in this thread saying: "it can't be!" But it's impossible for you (or anyone) to have the experience of "it can't be". That experience doesn't exist. Your view has to be opinion, which could never be proven.

 

No one here is arguing that "drugs are the way to go". They're just saying: substance did, indeed, help me out.

 

Why not trust them, that their experience actually worked for them, as they said? Are the nay-sayers going to insist that others' experiences are not valid? Talk about a belief system closing off someone's minds to other possibilities!

[phore]

Lysergic acid compounds and other tryptamines have been used by shamans around the world since the ancient times. A shaman should be full of life and egoless. I may be stepping on some toes here but i think anyone who considers themselves a spiritual teacher should be able to handle some tripping. If they cant then they havent even given up their egos yet.

enlightenment is a human birth right. If you are actually willing to confront your shadow, forgive your self, have fun, and do an occasional alchemical workout then spiritual development is a piece of cake.

 

LSD, magic mushrooms, and dmt, molecules are all related. they are tryptamines. they arent inherently bad or good. they are a mirror of your soul.

Dmt is called the spirit molecule. It is the molecule that makes us dream. It can be found in any plant or animal on earth. It is our most precious link to our spiritual selves. It is the physical manifestation of our spirit-body connection. Dmt is the most potent tryptamine. people who use it recreationally report astral travel, divine visions, and kundalini activity. We literally trip several times every night when we sleep.

 

Lsd, and mushrooms produce similar dream like hallucinatory trances. Would you trust a spiritual teacher who has bad dreams every night and is afraid of his own shadow.

 

However a word of caution. if you havent found your center, then psychedelics might drive you insane.

Its not for every one, but don't diss shamans because we aren't afraid of being human beings.

 

peace and love

Edited December 20, 2010 by phore

[SFJane]

 

DRUGS OR MEDITATION?

 

Consciousness Expansion and Disintegration

 

versus

 

Concentration and Spiritual Regeneration

 

I read the article. As someone who has spent considerable time doing both psychedelic drugs and meditation, I have to say that I agree with most everything put forth in the article.

 

Drugs can initially put you on the road to spiritual discovery and meditation. I know this from experience and because I wanted to have my cake and eat it too. When I first got into meditation in my twenties, I was going to do it my way, experts and gurus be damned. But ultimately what I discovered is this. Psychotropic drugs impose biochemical distortions on your consciousness. There is just no way around it.

 

Sooner or later, you will run into those distortions in your mind. Maybe it takes awhile because you have a great concentration, before you reach the place where it matters. But when you do you will have a choice. Remain satisfied with your drug-altered experiences and forget about going deeper down the rabbit hole. Or, do what your heart was probably telling you to do deep down. Purify yourself as best you can and see and feel the difference.

 

There is whole other Universe waiting for you inside to find and drugs, especially mind-altering ones, are going to prevent you from apprehending its more subtle realms. Drugs have an effect on your mind and if your consciousness gets to the level of being able to compensate for or nullify those drug distortions (which is what happened to me) then what the heck is the point of dropping and sitting, if all you are going to do is waste the first hour of practice burning out the distortions, before you can get to work?

Edited December 20, 2010 by SFJane

[buscon]

this is my experience too, I was able to be opened up to yoga and taoism because drugs shook me up. In the end, my fascination with the information that tickles my intellectual bone like energetic model of realty, quantum physics, fractal geometry etc.. all this started to clutter my hallucinating mind, it took me farther from the short and simple path that is currently providing me with a great way of living. That's the loop I took to land where I'm at.

 

This has been my experience too.

 

I think that drugs can be really a door, a way to show us what our body and mind can reach: we can learn smt from drugs.

 

Addiction can be a problem but it's not the only one.

Allucinogens are not that addictive, the point is that you cannot get so much after the experience: in order to really understand it, you have to practice daily and eventually you recognize what the allucinogens did and you know you don't need them

 

Drugs has been always very important in every religion/spiritual path, but the context used to be very different: nowadays you take drugs for fun.

 

So be careful and learn from your experience.

[manitou]

There might be some room for compromise. I'd been stone sober for 25 years and a meditator for probably 20 of those years. In the past 5 years, I have re-introduced cannabis into my life for various medical reasons. But a wonderful side-effect is the facility with which one can view different perspectives, particularly in developing clarity toward study of the TTC or other tomes which require extremely abstract thought. This is a mindset I was not capable of previously - too left brain. Granted, this is not LSD------