Kunlun follow up poll

[zahori]

Hi,

 

so is this your definition of "success" as you've used it with sincere Kunlun practitioners? becoming open to the astral, subtle realms? is enlightenment in your opinion dissolving the physical body and remaining in the astral form?

 

thanks

is any of this really "truth" or is all this digging just creating more muck to sift through. the creation of prettier clouds instead of seeing the clear nature of the sky?

 

I'm not judging, just curious, but it seems that those who think they are having success with Kunlun are just having interesting paranormal experiences and equate that with some sort of progress. not that theres anything wrong with that. and its pretty clear that these are the kind of people that Max would attract anyway given Chris's marketing style of instant enlightenment, instant bliss.

 

 

oh! .. did I forget to mention that the Bliss has been beautiful...am I enlighten???? hmmmm... am I???? dunno....I expose dont define...sucess????!!!...what is succes......how do you define sucess....this intention never passed my mind ...hmmm....is just a path....... do you know why the sky is blue? do you know its clear nature?????........

as I said your practice takes its own direction, it is different for everyone. what i have experienced has nothing to do with my best kunlun buddies, and we all start from the same position.....

Edited April 9, 2009 by zahori

[rex]

Yeah Mojo,voodoo,magic intention,power whatever you want to call it.

Lets just say that there is some strong spirits at work and I for one don't like univited guest in the middle of the night.

 

Yes totally agree Trunk and very well stated.

Thats exactly why one must choose ones friends carefully.

Their objectives were made quite clear and there was no way I was willing to play ball.

 

Trunk seems to imply that these visits are beings connected with the Kunlun lineage and are a blessing. Did you feel threatened somehow? I've received unexpected night time guests before but have instinctively known that they were not part of a lineage that I'm connected with, though being connected to a lineage enables me not to get freaked when they announce themselves.

 

Are you at liberty to say what the objectives were or are they already publicly available from the books, website and public statements made on this forum?

[三江源]

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Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[mgd]

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Edited April 13, 2009 by mgd

[mgd]

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Edited April 13, 2009 by mgd

[mgd]

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Edited April 13, 2009 by mgd

[Yoda]

The morning after thread!!

 

Lets just say that there are some strong spirits at work and I for one don't like univited guest in the middle of the night.

 

 

The question of "who" is showing up in the middle of the night is a big one.

 

Happy gods and angels or mean ghosts and demons? Seemingly angels but really demons? Seemingly demons but really great teachers? Or some sort of bizarre middle ground: horny angels who like to have a bit of fun but are also effective cultivation coaches and ultimately nice folks who are totally appropriate to introduce to Mom. Or maybe nothing at all is going on and nobody is really there... just more story telling and delusion.

 

I'd like to think that they are representatives of the lineage... simpler that way.

 

But who knows... maybe Kunlun just opens us to whatever is out there both the good and bad which would account for why some of us have had very differing experiences. The official position is that the process of awakening sleeping areas of the brain will have its glitchy stages and you just have to ride it out.

 

If they are bad news, why are they training us to higher levels of functionality? Why go through the trouble? What's in it for them? What's in it for Max? Why do they often share a loving and blissful vibe?

 

For the non-Kunlunie, the situation is very much like playing with an Ouija board with all of it's controversies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija

 

Whether true or not, Max's account about confronting and besting his Maoshan teacher after his teacher turned to energetic vampirism, isn't an auspicious one to have in one's lineage... Sith parallels are hard to miss.

 

I have no idea if my Senator Palpatine blues are grounded in the slightest... maybe I'm just running from the practice to save my ego structure and belief system from being challenged but I feel it's appropriate to at least put these thoughts on the table even if they are totally delusional.

 

Just like the real Yoda didn't see it coming, neither did I.

 

Yoda

[Mal]

If you don't want things to CHANGE don't do ANY practices that work

 

Everything negative seems to be a variant on

"it's not doing it the way I want / expected"

"I don't understand what is going on"

"this is not what I wanted"

 

 

The illusion of choice

[mgd]

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Edited April 13, 2009 by mgd

[gendao]

Happy gods and angels or mean ghosts and demons? Seemingly angels but really demons? Seemingly demons but really great teachers? Or some sort of bizarre middle ground: horny angels who like to have a bit of fun but are also effective cultivation coaches and ultimately nice folks who are totally appropriate to introduce to Mom. Or maybe nothing at all is going on and nobody is really there... just more story telling and delusion.

This brings up the bigger existential question of: How do we REALLLY KNOW anything in life???

 

I mean, is there really any foolproof method of verification? That leaves no room for any possible illusion?

 

And is there even an ultimate, absolute, objective reality to objectively know?

[三江源]

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Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Jesse]

Just like the real Yoda didn't see it coming, neither did I.

 

Yoda

 

 

priceless

[mgd]

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Edited April 13, 2009 by mgd

[ddilulo_06]

I FREAKIN' LOVE KUNLUN!

 

I do maybe 30 mins - 45 mins a day on average, with about 30 mins standing practice during mornings, then some RP at night.

 

I just look back at think "Wow." The practices Max has shared with me have made a HUGE impact in the way I see myself.

 

KUNLUN FREAKIN' ROCKS!

 

Chad and Taomeow, thank you for your insights.

 

Yoda: A birdie just tweeted "BOOGAH BOOGAH BOOGAH!!!"

Edited April 9, 2009 by ddilulo_06

[dizzydazzle]

Winpro,

 

I was not intentionally trying to offend you but the k bug sometimes leaves no option. I won't spend time replying to your PM. On a more serious note, I would like to know your opinion on the technique minus Max. Do you believe that without seeing Max, one can derive all the benefits you associate with Kunlun? If not, then it's probably the transmission that does more. Can any of the Kunlun folks comment? The alien, entity, implantation, ascended masters, demons, angels angle probably is associated with this aspect.

[susie]

Hello Yoda and all,

I do not post here, I post in the Kunlun forum, but wanted to respond to this poll.

I was introduced to Kunlun and it's varying practices for 15 months.

I was not looking for it, but was brought to a class by a friend.

It worried me at first, and i did not understand what was going on.

In a moment, I let go and released so much pain and fear, layer after layer.

I continue to practice... 10 minutes every other day or so. I am not regimented,

practice when it feels right and for as long as it feels right.

That way it does always feel right and good.

I feel stronger, cleaner, clearer.

Feeling like layers of an onion, pealing away what is not real.

With every layer it may have a stench and a tear,

and the next surface is smoother.

Red pheonix happens layered with life, not alway a formal practice.

I find it in the middle of chaos, it brings a detached clarity... it is easy, natural.

Kunlun is sometimes active, sometimes calm, and fills me with energy always expanding.

Sometimes it is very blissful, sometimes talking in tongues and feeling downloaded with information...

information that brings more clarity to my life.

I have been to several of Max's workshops, yet do not feel it necessary to see him or get zapped.

Mostly go to see friends, to bring friends...brought my mother...

to share this with them, which has also helped them very much.

Have felt other "energies". Not afraid, not attached, they come and go.

As long as i focus on love and not fear, there is nothing to worry about.

I do not know of all the lineages or alchemy or entities etc.

I do not care about quick enlightenment.

Just do what feels right.

Now I am going to make a quilt from some old clothes.

Have fun,

love,

susie

[Sloppy Zhang]

On a more serious note, I would like to know your opinion on the technique minus Max. Do you believe that without seeing Max, one can derive all the benefits you associate with Kunlun?

 

Again, not a Kunlun person (will read the book today though!!!) but one thing I found interesting is that similar practices are found in other schools. (so even though you didn't ask me, I would say that yes it is possible to derive all the benefits associated with Kunlun) I was reading B.K. Frantzis book "The Great Stillness", and he talked about spontaneous movement (as he experienced it through taoist meditation and baguazhang):

 

"The circle walking method of bagua is said to have originally come from the Kunlun mountains of northern Tibet. This primary moving meditation method involves walking in a circle... As a bagua practitioner becomes more developed both internally and externally, he or she can experience instances of spontaneous movement. In bagua language this phenomenon is called "when the dragon comes out of its cave." Spontaneous movement can happen while you are walking the circle. You may spontaneously start discharging energy in very powerful ways, doing movements no one ever taught you. You can have psychic experience of all kinds. Until I met my teacher Liu Hung Chieh, I had never actually experienced spontaneous movement in the context of bagua zhang... The source of these incredibly rapid yet flowing movements is the release of a human being's internal consciousness. In this process, your energy starts mixing with the energy in the surroudning environment and you can tap into the primal energies that give rise to each individual's physical existence."

 

He then goes on to make the comparison between yoga, talks about three types of spontaneous movement: earth energy flowing up, heaven energy flowing down, and then simultaneous rising/falling which results in a mix.

 

The full excerpt of his spontaneous movement bit is actually available on google books preview, pages 69-72.

 

So, even though Kunlun as taught by Max seems to be kind of... well everyone has lots of opinions, similar movements and teachings exist in other schools. The main difference being that with Frantzis' spontaneous movement, it only happens after years of bagua practice, usually lasts for a short amount of time, then never happens again. (on the sample video on the kunlunbliss website, Max says something similar, about people "facing the wall" for 20 years, experiencing a little bit of bliss, then losing it)

 

I believe several people have posted that these methods in Kunlun were the "advanced practices", and that in the old days people were just left to figure it out on their own. Of course, in the old days they would have had years of prior cultivation and practice to fall back on. In Frantzis' methods you have the longevity breathing, dissolving methods, and movements to clear blockages, so when one gets to the spontaneous movement, it's not as much of a shock.

 

So maybe that could explain some experiences. But I dunno, I'll come back with my personal opinion of Kunlun in a couple of days, after I've had the chance to try it out myself

Edited April 9, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Trunk]

Trunk, have you experienced the KL spirits in the night? And if you have, how do you find the experience?

A little bit, especially in the period after the seminar. Certainly less than some people are referring to in this thread. But, as I said, I did the practice only for very short periods and not every day.

 

It was kind of like a dragon flowing through my body. It was a surprise to have a reptile form flow through mine, I think part of the my mammalian form naturally goes *yipes* at that interaction. At the same time I know enough (friend or foe) to breathe and apply serenity. A fundamental meditation principle is "be cool". And, upon inspection, I could feel that the interaction was quite benevolent and helpful to my process ... kind of smooths the sinews.

 

(Later edit: The above was my experience, within the limits I mentioned. I don't mean it to diminish anyone else's experiences that might vary from my own, and others can - of course - speak for themselves.)

 

At the same time I don't feel like it's my home lineage, not some place I choose to hang out in long term. Upon initiation you're "in the river" (the mind-stream of the lineage). You're soaked and you flow with it, and there's also the choice to put your attention elsewhere and you glide from the center of the river to shore, turn and bow gratefully, and move on to where ever else suits you. Graceful exit.

 

And, while there is choice to glide out of that river, it's not instant choice. And it's not all about choice; it's who you were initiated by, there are mechanics involved, there is "the way it happens". You have some control, but you're not entirely in control. Like in regular life. Though this isn't 'regular life'.

 

I feel more at home within the Kagyu lineage and with Kuan Yin. I like Kuan Yin. I find her to be very benevolent and soothing and she shows up in all of the eastern religions, gives me room to explore the areas that naturally interest me while sustaining that relationship. Her mantra, the deity practice, all I find to be very very helpful. Mark has Siddha and Kagyu Lineage flowing through his school, which is part of why I was so drawn to him I think.

 

But, like I said, I only practiced KL for very short sessions and not daily. Though my experience was vivid (and I still find that realm available if I put my attention there steadily) I didn't have nearly the extensive experiences that some are noting in this thread. A few times over several weeks maybe.

 

I don't think that the KL position is inherently connected to any single lineage. A person could do KL while integrating with any or no lineage. Who you hang out with psychically is the key, where you put your attention. Put your devotion towards Jesus of Nazareth, hang out with Christians, and you'd be more in that Lineage Stream. (.. or similarly with Hindu deities/teachers, or Tibetans, or etc.)

 

Personally, I think it would be nice if the KL + RP became available without lineage affiliation (in addition to, not instead of, the current offering). Though that is not my call to make, just my personal opinion. I think that they are basically very good practices. And, yes, I acknowledge that they can be over-done and problems can occur. And I don't think any single practice is suitable for everyone.

 

Trouble-shooting is tricky. It really requires extensive, broad experience. Ideally a trouble-shooter would be very familiar with the fundamentals of Chinese medicine (or equivalent) plus have wide training in physical body-changing practices plus extensive meditation experience... plus be able to give the student time and attention. It's really a tall order to fill in modern western culture, very rare that it actually happens here. On a practical realistic basis students can expect to learn just parts of the path at any one school (and try and be wise discerning about what is / isn't in that school), and learn from a number of good schools over a long period of time. Even in a culture rich with spiritual tradition, people go to different teachers/schools to learn different aspects of the path. .. uh, this is my side-ways way of saying that the KL assistants face a steep learning curve. But, what are you gonna do? You've gotta start somewhere. And Max has tapped several people with Ch.medical experience (+ other trainings) to become more involved. There is the reality of logistics and gradual progress. (And I'm not saying that to brush off the serious consequences involved, just as a stubborn fact.)

 

Trunk

Edited April 9, 2009 by Trunk

[rain]

Thank you rain!

 

How many of us have given the wrong advice?

 

Kunlun practictioners giving the wrong advice to each other?

 

LOL. You got it! Nailed it.

 

No wonder winpro and AugustLeo and I have all detailed our posts.

 

We can stand behind nothing we write.

 

Nothing.

 

We can be honest with each other at the time and try to help in our own

misguided way but we now nothing and are just the blind leading the blind.

 

I cannot recommend Kunlun to anyone other than to say use at your own risk.

 

You'll be creeped out and when you go to the seminars they won't explain Lineage and transmission

like Trunk did. You'll get figure it out on your own and if you have a problem figure it out

on your own.

 

I've gone to two other teachers to get past Max & Kunlun and return

to a coherent way of being.

 

All the pheonomeon Lineage or otherwise could use more education for the practictioner around it

to take away the creepy level. Students are left to indulge in it to figure it out and when you ask for

help...well good luck with that.

 

rain I love you but I've followed your posts too and you still can't make up your mind

 

you asked and asked for support but no one is listening....

 

oh the spiritual realm is....alll of it...ALL of it and some of it is messed up and will mess up the

practicitioner

 

you'll have no help with any of that

 

Buyer beware

 

 

You are the one talking about advice...

I am the one talking about sharing notes. THere is a difference I hope.

Besides there is also a difference btw banging your head against the wall a couple of times

and continuing to bang it

 

you are quite right about me not made up my mind..yet

that is

Im being spontaneous about it.

 

hows that? seriously..

I chose not to dwelve into the mysterious stuff..but it seems coming to me

in a tempo I can handle.

Edited April 9, 2009 by rain

[mgd]

...

Edited April 13, 2009 by mgd

[rain]

Hahahahah. ah but well worth it rain.

 

Look how nice and cozy everyone is now...finally sharing, all working together. Big

bad wolf isn't here to patrol things anymore and everyone is finally talking freely.

Too little and too late to benefit me but I'm more than delighted for the rest of you.

 

More than delighted.

 

xxoo

 

g.

 

 

? what sort of nonsense is this mgd?

who is big bad wolf *chuckles*

You have found something that is everywhere. good for ya. I believe you even said you got to sit right beside ..grandma?

 

I for all have been rather direct and spontaneous with both frustration and approval. rather unbalanced I'd say and not ashamed of it or my directness in this and the kunlunforum. I doubt Max or Chris is in the dark regards to my wievs. Not that I particularly believe they care. You see.

 

There has been a lot of exchange of experience btw people in the forum and to my taste not enough inteference from Chris and Max. But thats my taste. See? Hello DOLLY? Not to be confused with the practise?

I still am evaluating to the best of my ability the similarities and differences btw. my other medical qigong practise, the yoga and the meditation..

Edited April 9, 2009 by rain

[Yoda]

Yoda: A birdie just tweeted "BOOGAH BOOGAH BOOGAH!!!"

 

 

 

 

Hopefully I'm completely wrong about Kunlun being 100% problematic but I feel very comfortable claiming that Kunlun is either "partially" or "highly" problematic. At the very least, the average practitioner should have ongoing contact with a qualified teacher.

 

~~~

 

Here are some misc notes:

 

I had a few bedroom encounters where I've strongly sensed the presence, felt the touch of, or seen entities. At the time they happened, I can't tell you whether I was awake, dreaming, or somewhere in between. One time, they put their hands around my neck and squeezed rather hard. The event had an erotic goth tone to it and I had mixed reactions about the encounter. Same for the dreams that I had... definite sense of fascination but vaguely uncomfortable undertones. I had this one dream where Max kissed me on the lips... a bit erotic but non-sexual. Reminded me of the Hindu notion of the demon kiss (inauspicious btw ). I had another creepy undertone dream where Max was standing on the moon.

 

As far as channeling goes, I could ask yes and no questions and my head would nod or shake and I bet I could have run an Ouija board successfully during this time but I wasn't ready for automatic writing or having them "speak" through me directly. I asked if they loved me and they said "yes." That sort of thing.

 

My practice of Kunlun was sometimes just shaking or doing simple taichi like motions but it mostly was of praying and bowing to the four directions and simultaneously grinning and frowning hugely and also doing a frantic lower MCO orbit lead by my hands with the orbit going up the front and down the back with this crazy facial expression and a sense of urgency. And lots of sword finger mudras. The facial expression and the finger mudras were coming up more and more in my regular life. Sometimes very animalistic motions and sounds esp cat-like and snake-like.

 

So the vibe was a bit creepy but there was still a strong sensation of love and mysticism in the air... so it was sort of a toss up as to whether to go on. My more advanced Kunlun pals said that things got weirder in the future and that was my sense for myself as well if I had stuck with it.

 

Getting out is a whole different story... is that even possible? Will RP keep on trucking forever? Will it just lay dormant ready to pop up during inopportune moments? Did I mention that my 8 year old daughter once woke up in the middle of the night doing some serious kunlun? That's a whole different aspect to all of this!

 

Jmo,

Yoda

[AugustLeo]

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[Aetherous]

Thanks for sharing, Yoda.

 

Everyone's experience is legitimate. The ones who have no troubles, and the ones who have tons of trouble.

 

I'm glad there's this forum where we can all share our experiences, so that others can make a truly informed decision.

[fiveelementtao]

I have stood in the back and watched the crazy drama about kunlun for awhile. But since now people are inferring demonic intentions to the actual lineage, I feel it necessary to put the focus back where it belongs; ON OURSELVES!

Some people were using the kunlun "bliss" to escape their feelings rather than face them. If anyone uses powerful energy techniques in this fashion, it is no surprise to me that they will encounter their own unconscious delusions.

 

I do know that if anyone chooses to practice something as powerful as kunlun without taking the responsibility to keep control of their own unconscious garbage, then they are in effect surrendering themselves to their unconscious wierdness.

Some people are angry with Max because they feel he did not do enough to guide them through their experiences. Blaming our personal experiences on the "Evil lineage masters" paints us as victims. This is not Tao. There are no victims in Tao. I have been involved in exorcisms and spiritual cleansings for over 20 years and I can tell you from experience that nothing 'evil' ever attacks someone without their conscious or unconscious permission. The first step in resolving demonic attacks is for the 'victim' to take responsibility for their unconscious projections and unresolved emotional issues.

 

To me, the most logical explanation to what is going on is that the practices are letting loose some pretty serious unconscious things to the surface. It seems to me that what is missing here is the ability of the individuals to take control of their unconscious.

 

For me, meeting Max was a great learning experience. It deepened my understanding of my lineage and confirmed some things I was experiencing in my practices. But I NEVER gave up control of my ego to him nor did I turn over responsibility of my health to him or the practice or the "lineage." I always kept an eye on what was going on and I always listened to my common sense to take care of me.

Edited October 14, 2009 by fiveelementtao