Kunlun follow up poll

[mgd]

Hey Dan...I was talking to a someone who visited the site a while

back. They said they came onto the site to find out more about Kunlun because

they wanted to attend a seminar. They told me that a Kunluner pm'd them and said they should run the questions that they had by them instead of asking publicly.... the Kunluner told them that they'd answer their questions the way Max would. This person was shocked and found it "creepy" that there was a "screening" process, and that the Kunlun students thought they were qualified to answer questions the way Max would.

 

Sheesh...you wouldn't know anything about that now would you?

 

And Dan, what made you think you were qualified to answer this person's questions?

Max hadn't even answered some of them, hadn't gone over them thoroughly with us...

what made you think that you would be able to speak for Max? And...you don't see a problem with that?

Edited August 20, 2009 by mgd

[joeblast]

Hm, okay....even though your results were very atypical? Your questions are relevant to any spiritual path one chooses - especially any sort of long distance study or study by seminars - I think that is where the incongruity is slightly irksome, like this is the only lineage one might expect to encounter 'issues' with.

 

Here's one area I feel strongly about - personal responsibility. You cant have some insurance policy out on the world and always expect someone to come rushing to your aid, claiming your responsibility for your actions. I understand the desire for a certain amount of guidance with respect to practices, but for the majority of us that have stuck with this, the method as presented has been sufficient, though some of us havent fully understood the necessity for lots of grounding. I guess what I wonder is, at what point is a teacher going to say "your best course of action is to stop these practices" - now under traditional studies where a student is in close proximity to the teacher there is a more personal bond and the teacher is in a position to 'have a finger on the pulse of progress," so to speak, such a situation is conducive to the teacher being able to say with a much higher level of certainty what is needed for the student at that point in time. If you're told to do more grounding and you dont self investigate and figure out what is going on for you...where does that leave you? Uninformed of self.

 

This path, this method, as presented, is not quite so amenable to a close teacher-student bond - as such, your expectations seemed rather unrealistic. Also unrealistic to project your concerns upon anyone who comes across these practices here - there have certainly been enough posts, enough things mentioned throughout the course of these discussions, that anyone who hits the search button here and enters in 'kunlun' will almost certainly find your cautionary words, all with no extra input on your part. Max has said many a time from the getgo that back in the day, this practice was whispered and you were left to figure it out yourself. That resonates with me - I've had to figure out a substantial percentage of stuff in my life and I am quite comfortable being in that position where I have me to rely on and no one else.

 

 

That I cant even finish one reply before there's another...that's just an unhealthy obsession. I am not responsible for severe twisting and misinterpretation of my words. I did tell that person if they felt that since discussions here were rather charged at the time, if they didnt want to ask any certain thing in public threads, I would do my best to answer them via PM - I never claimed to be any sort of mouthpiece for Max, I never said I would be able to answer any question tossed at me. My words were simple; the arbitrary and well misused extrapolations were anything but.

 

 

Your crusade is misguided, and I mostly replied just out of curiosity if this was some sort of crusade or not. Now that this has been established, I'll wish you a good day.

 

*hugs*

[mgd]

...

Edited September 5, 2009 by mgd

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[mgd]

What I find as a concern... there have been people permanently damaged because of the teachings... what is of concern is shoulder shrugging these outcomes as a lack of personal responsibility by the student. Yes personal responsibility is important - but not just for the student.

 

 

 

You know... one of the lessons for this type of teaching is the "for every high there is a low" and that both must be adressed; both must be accepted on the path - as this is the path of non-duality. Yet when it comes to difficulties there is a pushing away of the bothersome and an embrace of enthusiastic. If the non-duality is a true law of nature then it will apply to everything - not just meditation/personal growth - but also student/organization relationships. So.... for all of the great, loving, dedicated relationships formed during the Kunlun seminars there will be troublesome, bothersome, dramatic relationships as well.

 

 

 

On one hand there is the guidance to take responsibility for your dark night - yet as an organization has this really been engaged fully? There is the guidance of "if you don't face it - it will come around again" - and this keeps coming around and has been long before the Kunlun techniques were formulated and brought to the public.

 

 

 

This issue comes from the very root and is being passed down to the new facilitators of it - perhaps maybe in time they will iron this out - but of course that means finding error in the teacher and who has the courage for that?

 

Thank you.

Edited August 28, 2009 by mgd

[Cameron]

--

Edited August 23, 2009 by Cameron

[Mal]

maybe in the future there would be no more casualties as a result of these practices.... that teachers and students both would progress enough to ensure that everyone benefits?

 

Edits mine.

 

Unfortunately I don't think that everyone benefiting will ever be possible with any practice.

 

There are just too many variables IMHO the only way would be for prospective students to be heavily screened and assessed by teachers with only a few being "chosen" to progress (sould like old traditional systems)

 

In kung fu students help each other all the time, and we get it wrong often because we are not Sifu's but it's all good and part of the learning.......... just like these kunlun threads

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[Aetherous]

A disclaimer: I don't know much and am just a student trying to find his way, but I do have opinions on these things...

 

I was coming up with various replies throughout the day, as this topic progressed even further ...being conflicted in my stance on the issue. However, I think this is the best thing said thus far...

 

My friend this damage is more then a few unfortunate events - it is broken people, broken families, life long damage. Wether it is one in a thousand or one thousand people effected - as long as it is not addressed the consequences which the exiled, bonkers, or broken will live with is a complete waste - left meaningless simply because it will not be acknowledged or owned by those who have create it. And what allows this to propagate are students which will not take responsibility for their own expereince and thus refuse to drop the drama when process starts moving forward - and "teachers" which sit beyond reproach with noboy willing to hold them accountable. It is BOTH sides not owning the consequences of thier actions.

 

The 1 out of a thousand truly does matter, and shouldn't be swept under the rug. What if it were us? Then it'd seem like a bigger deal!

 

The teachers must hold themselves accountable for their students. If someone doesn't, that is just who they are, and it can't be changed by any students trying to hold them accountable.

 

So, holding this against Max is pointless. It won't change the way he does things. It serves no purpose, except to perpetuate our own drama.

 

It's not up to him to let it go for us.

 

Contrary to what Gloria says, I think there was adequate warning about this very issue. If someone thought Max was becoming their teacher, they must have not been paying any attention at all to what he was saying. We don't have a teacher (in the sense of a guru/disciple relationship), we have practices that someone shared with us.

 

The descriptions of the practices are simple. Gloria was filling in the blanks (not a problem, I did/do it as well)...and I don't think her case was a big deal: sensations of hot and cold aren't necessarily a bad thing. It is simply change occurring in the body! When we start to think something is going wrong, the fear can snowball and make things seem a lot worse than they are. Especially when teachers of other traditions are saying things like, "cold feelings mean evil spirits are around you and trying to get you". Ahh! Definitely more fear, then!

 

Gently belly breathing and moving on with our day balances things out...this is my experience, as someone who has had bad effects and who has stopped having them.

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[Cameron]

--

Edited August 23, 2009 by Cameron

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform

[mgd]

The descriptions of the practices are simple. Gloria was filling in the blanks (not a problem, I did/do it as well)...and I don't think her case was a big deal: sensations of hot and cold aren't necessarily a bad thing.

 

You have never experienced it. You are not qualified to judge my experience, or comment regarding it. Jenny Lamb wouldn't even comment, and told me to speak with the teacher that taught me. And by the way...gentle belly breathing did not work to alleviate any of my physical symptoms.

 

Added:

 

Jenny Lamb finally did answer me:

 

"As for the cold sensations in one's body, it may be the result of many reasons. Such as there is negative energy in the body, or unwholesome entity in the body, or damp and coldness in the body. In any case, one should, through practice or through proper diet or food therapy, remove them, in order to heal the body. It will take some time, but it can be done."

Edited September 29, 2009 by mgd

[-O-]

..

Edited August 25, 2009 by -O-

[Aetherous]

Edit: moving on...

Edited August 21, 2009 by Scotty

[mgd]

Edited August 30, 2009 by mgd

[mgd]

...

Edited September 5, 2009 by mgd

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hi mgd,

 

What exactly did you want to accomplish with Kunlun?

[mgd]

I wanted to have better relationships and learn to love myself and others more.

 

 

Nothing anyone says to me will convince me that all of this is worth

the cost of a human life or damaging one.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I wanted to have better relationships and learn to love myself and others more.

 

Ah I see.

 

Did you have any backgrounds in Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, or any other philosophy in general?

 

There is no such thing as a perfect practice. Human lives have always costed and damage has always been done in any religion, practice, organization, cult, etc.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Mal]

Why do we keep trying to change how others act?

Or attempting to make others fit some idealized standard of how we expected them to behave?

 

Here's one area I feel strongly about - personal responsibility. You cant have some insurance policy out on the world and always expect someone to come rushing to your aid, claiming your responsibility for your actions.

 

I agree you can only control yourself

 

If we want support it's up to us to support each other.

 

(my underline)

Exactly. It's not easy, but IMHO it should about changing ourselves not others.

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited August 22, 2009 by winpro07

[mgd]

...

Edited September 5, 2009 by mgd

[mgd]

Ah I see.

 

Did you have any backgrounds in Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, or any other philosophy in general?

 

There is no such thing as a perfect practice. Human lives have always costed and damage has always been done in any religion, practice, organization, cult, etc.

 

It's time for an improvement.

[Lucky7Strikes]

It's time for an improvement.

 

And what is your suggestion? More warnings?