Kunlun follow up poll

[Aetherous]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Scotty

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

I don't see the point in debating the issue. The facilitator course is great, for those who have dedicated their lives to the path.

 

It's Max's decision to set it up the way it is. And I'm personally ready to teach, having cultivated the "non certifiable" qualities for many years.

 

So it's simple: if you're not certified, you're not a good source of information about Kunlun. No matter who you are!

Perhaps not simple enough for me, because I don't get it --

except from some residual Christian perspective where if you're not ordained your opinions about Jesus are nil and void. Could there be some transference/projection going on here, of one tradition, the one most westerners are used to, onto another?..

 

I thought not seeing the point in debating the issue is expressed by not debating it. Again I seem to fail to follow your logic. I don't insist on a debate, but if you debate it while saying you're not interested in debating it, I'm confused. Do you mean you're not interested in hearing my opinion? That's fine. But it's different from negating mine, offering yours, and then saying you're not interested in debating. Just nitpicking... do forgive that.

[Guest winpro07]

Yes, "jing" refers to the material substance of the body. The energy could be said to be "the fabric" of the Tao.

cool! I love learning the terminology, thank you

 

by material substance do you mean a base field that substance rises or forms from?

Edited January 23, 2010 by winpro07

[Taomeow]

Wow

welcome out into the cold, brother.

[Aetherous]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Scotty

[fiveelementtao]

I've been wondering about Golden Flower for a while. The only thing the book said for golden flower was the mudra. Is there a mental aspect of the practice, i.e. what is one to do with the mind when holding the mudra? Also, should the practice be done immediately before or after the spontaneous practice and/or close-down, or perhaps completely separately?

For golden flower, I suggest holding the mudra and concentrating on the Dan tien in question. The mudra is designed to channel energy into the dan tien and purify the energy and the Dan tien then processes the energy and sends it where it is needed. GF is a very simple but a very powerful practice. The mental aspect is to empty yourself. Mao Shan work is very simple. Do the practice with an open attitude with no expectations and don't force it.

Golden flower can be done separately. I do it after my Mao Shan Martial exercises. It is very powerful. It concentrates the power of the forms and allows me to supercharge the dan tiens. One could do the same with Tai Chi or Ba Gua or Wu Ji Gong or whatever. GF channels energy into the dan tiens and strenghtens them...

 

Other practitioners may have different ways of doing it. If it were me, I would do Five element Jongs in the morning to create energy for the day ahead. Golden flower can be done at that time as a close down and is a great way to consolidate the energy created from the jongs. I do my spontaneous at night before deeper meditation work. That is me. I do not know that there is a specific way for everyone. Working with a facilitator is a good way to individualize your own routine. My main point is that Yi gong, Jongs and GF were put together as s system by Max for a reason. Having talked with him about this a few times, I have learned that he has put together a complete system and these practices should be done together as a system in order to get the best results. The practices have a synergistic effect on each other. If people pick and choose what they want, they may or may not get optimal results.

 

Jenny did not teach Max (or anyone) the higher level(s) of Yi Gong. If you don't recognize levels 2 and 3 as being from the Lum lineage, I wonder where they came from?

I've heard different, my understanding is that KL 1, 2 and 3 came from Jenny. But regardless My point is that Max has taught these things in this manner for a reason. If someone wants what he has they should do what he does...

[Guest winpro07]

Just nitpicking... do forgive that.

you're so good at that! hehe Edited January 23, 2010 by winpro07

[Taomeow]

cool! I love learning the terminology, thank you

um... this one you might want to unlearn as fast as you learned it, jing does not refer to the material substance of the body except on the street in some minds. Jing is memory of genesis, pattern of becoming. Most of it is cosmic, some of it is species-specific, some more is personal-hereditary, and then a fraction of that is carried by some agents in the body (without being them though). Jing, like qi, is a pattern followed by a process, not a "thing." That online forums have spread the idea of jing as a material substance -- enough to be even equated with "sperm" left and right -- is both funny and sad. Sad and hilarious. It's like saying that tao resides in the body exclusively in sperm, or better yet, that what isn't sperm isn't tao. Jing is the closest thing to tao, the vehicle of its manifest-unmanifest machinery. Oh, and there's no definition. Can be described, can't be defined. If it's defined, it's fubarred.

 

Interesting about certification having fu! I didn't think about that... Well, I've met at least two facilitaors who were full of crap. Guess the fu didn't take.

[Aetherous]

Edited January 23, 2010 by Scotty

[Aetherous]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Scotty

[Taomeow]

I refer to a simplified TCM view of the term. I'm no expert on this stuff...I just know the Kunlun system and my own experience. You may be full of knowledge, but are lacking in those two aspects.

Nope, it's the other way around: my knowledge in general is modest, but I know kunlun and am a habitual integrator of whatever I know and can apply one to the other.

 

The simplified view of TCM's term "jing" would be DNA. It's impossible to further simplify something that if extracted from your body and straightened out would stretch from Earth to the Sun five million times with every nanometer of it meaningful, and meaningful in a way that can't be reduced to the substances the meaning is put together out of. It's not my desire to overcomplicate things, it's just that they happen to be naturally complex.

 

Haven't heard Max say what you're saying anyway, so I either missed something, or you?.. I reiterate: certification in kunlun is not required for a practitioner of same to understand same and get the practice right. It is useful if one wants to undertake teaching others hands-on. If one doesn't, it doesn't kill her ability to practice or understand or even -- gasp -- have an opinion. D'accord?

[Guest winpro07]

um... this one you might want to unlearn as fast as you learned it, jing does not refer to the material substance of the body except on the street in some minds. Jing is memory of genesis, pattern of becoming. Most of it is cosmic, some of it is species-specific, some more is personal-hereditary, and then a fraction of that is carried by some agents in the body (without being them though). Jing, like qi, is a pattern followed by a process, not a "thing." That online forums have spread the idea of jing as a material substance -- enough to be even equated with "sperm" left and right -- is both funny and sad. Sad and hilarious. It's like saying that tao resides in the body exclusively in sperm, or better yet, that what isn't sperm isn't tao. Jing is the closest thing to tao, the vehicle of its manifest-unmanifest machinery. Oh, and there's no definition. Can be described, can't be defined. If it's defined, it's fubarred.

 

Interesting about certification having fu! I didn't think about that... Well, I've met at least two facilitaors who were full of crap. Guess the fu didn't take.

 

actually, I understood and I don't think Scott was referring to physical jing as semen. I was just clarifying his words for my own perspective. I would say that energetically Jing as the base field is more than just similar to Jing as mass. All the energies that rise from the void have specific counter part in the human form and those forms are far more than representation.

 

By full of crap do you mean, lack of knowledge, inability, lack of energy?

Edited January 23, 2010 by winpro07

[Creation]

fiveelementtao,

 

GF is indeed a cool practice. That mudra was the first mudra that I really felt the power of.

 

Thank you for the very thorough response.

[Taomeow]

actually, I understood and I don't think Scott was referring to physical jing as semen. I was just clarifying his words for my own perspective. I would say that energetically Jing as the base field is more than just similar to Jing as mass. All the energies that rise from the void have specific counter part in the human form and those forms are far more than representation.

 

By full of crap do you mean, lack of knowledge, inability, lack of energy?

 

I mean lack of knowledge, erratic energy, and a bad control trip engaged in. My guess is, they became facilitators too soon, and the inner voice that was saying "you're not ready" was promptly hushed by "but I want to."

 

The process has stages. Some of these stages are haywire stages. It's normal, every powerful practice will have haywire stages, if it doesn't it's just going through the motions, skimming the surface... that's a firm conviction of mine. Ideally, no one would be teaching anybody anything until those obligatory haywire stages are safely well in the past and properly integrated. But the world seems to be in a hurry these days, it's not something specific to kunlun, it's all over the place -- people start jumping on board all kinds of ships, throwing their captains overboard and bravely navigating the ship toward the nearest iceberg -- crew and passengers and all. I don't have a problem with that either because, well, I do have a sense of urgency about everything currently going on everywhere, so this tactic might at least save whoever can swim, and whoever can't, the ship and the captain who had spent twenty years becoming qualified would have avoided the iceberg only to be torpedoed, that might be even worse, no one swims. But whenever someone goes on a control trip on the merit of having hijacked the ship he doesn't actually know jackshit about, that's when I start having a problem. (I don't mean anyone personally of the present parties, of course.)

[Biff]

I mean lack of knowledge, erratic energy, and a bad control trip engaged in. My guess is, they became facilitators too soon, and the inner voice that was saying "you're not ready" was promptly hushed by "but I want to."

 

The process has stages. Some of these stages are haywire stages. It's normal, every powerful practice will have haywire stages, if it doesn't it's just going through the motions, skimming the surface... that's a firm conviction of mine. Ideally, no one would be teaching anybody anything until those obligatory haywire stages are safely well in the past and properly integrated. But the world seems to be in a hurry these days, it's not something specific to kunlun, it's all over the place -- people start jumping on board all kinds of ships, throwing their captains overboard and bravely navigating the ship toward the nearest iceberg -- crew and passengers and all. I don't have a problem with that either because, well, I do have a sense of urgency about everything currently going on everywhere, so this tactic might at least save whoever can swim, and whoever can't, the ship and the captain who had spent twenty years becoming qualified would have avoided the iceberg only to be torpedoed, that might be even worse, no one swims. But whenever someone goes on a control trip on the merit of having hijacked the ship he doesn't actually know jackshit about, that's when I start having a problem. (I don't mean anyone personally of the present parties, of course.)

 

You know in M$ Word when you have a word highlighted and hit SHIFT+ F7 it bring up the thesaurus. Interestingly if you do this on the word ego it displays 'Taomeow'

[Guest winpro07]

I really enjoy your posts

I mean lack of knowledge, erratic energy, and a bad control trip engaged in. My guess is, they became facilitators too soon, and the inner voice that was saying "you're not ready" was promptly hushed by "but I want to."

 

But whenever someone goes on a control trip on the merit of having hijacked the ship he doesn't actually know jackshit about, that's when I start having a problem. (I don't mean anyone personally of the present parties, of course.)

being in process, an asshole or technical Taoist idiot wont impede transmission.In fact it may even help! It does not take genius, or great background.

 

I have seen facilitators entirely uncomfortable with the responsibility and feared from lack of knowledge who were already spiritual adept but hadn't seen this yet in their self. They are good teachers because they "don't know" and are wide open to the real experience and not stuck in knowledge. The knowledge come after the feeling

 

you jumped on my back the other day and I felt a defeated like "I don't know anything" but it was done with a earth mother kind of vibe and that was kind.

Edited January 23, 2010 by winpro07

[Taomeow]

I really enjoy your posts

being in process, an asshole or technical Taoist idiot wont impede transmission.In fact it may even help! It does not take genius, or great background.

 

I have seen facilitators entirely uncomfortable with the responsibility and feared from lack of knowledge who were already spiritual adept but hadn't seen this yet in their self. They are good teachers because they "don't know" and are wide open to the real experience and not stuck in knowledge. The knowledge come after the feeling

 

you jumped on my back the other day and I felt a defeated like "I don't know anything" but it was done with a earth mother kind of vibe and that was kind.

OK, I'll try to be more careful. It wasn't my intention to defeat anyone. Cats pounce to play. If my cat plays too roughly I go "ouch" and she stops. Consider the "ouch" heard and taken into consideration.

[Aetherous]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Scotty

[fiveelementtao]

.

Edited January 24, 2010 by fiveelementtao

[Mal]

So what do you think my motivation was for saying that? It seems you didn't like to hear it.

 

I didn't. I read it as, if you are not part of the club you can not have any good information. Seemed rather exclusive and dismissive to me.

 

I could guess at your motivation for doing so, but my guess may not be correct.

[Guest winpro07]

OK, I'll try to be more careful. It wasn't my intention to defeat anyone. Cats pounce to play. If my cat plays too roughly I go "ouch" and she stops. Consider the "ouch" heard and taken into consideration.

Puuurrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrr rrrrrrr

[Mal]

although what he has been saying wasn't anything necessarily harmful and can be a good way to practice, it isn't what I would personally have recommended to a beginner.

<snip>

but I'll stop now, because I don't like to have this kind of stern attitude.

 

That reads a lot better than the 1st statement " No matter who you are! "

 

Anyhow it's practice time now for me, have fun my friends

[Jack Runner]

*looks at thread*.

 

WTF IS GOING ON HERE!?

 

Taomeow: You can study in a book how to use a sword as much as you want, but in the end it's the actual ability to wield it on a battle field that makes it of any use. People learn by doing, not learn by knowing something then never feeling comfortable to share what they learn, even teachers are forever students. You're a smart woman, you know your s**t, I respect that about you very much so, but CHILL. It's one thing to correct someone, it's another to braid them with "look how much I know about such and such" Sometimes knowledge is much more useless then field experience. You're to pretty to be pompous dear.

 

Fiveelementtao & Scotty: Do I need to stop this car and take off my belt? I'll do it! Scotty apologize to your brother!

 

Now everyone put their egos away!

 

*backs away from thread slowly then burst into a cold dead sprint*

Edited January 23, 2010 by Jack Runner

[Aetherous]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Scotty

[Jack Runner]

Oh and in the words of my facilitator when I slipped and called her Sifu jokingly. She lovingly and firmly affirmed me to not call her sifu because although she is trained to be a facilitator she her self is still learning and she encouraged me to learn more.

 

She was very open about who she was, which made me feel so comfortable learning the exercises from her.

 

It's about being honest with what you feel comfortable doing, and then being honest with the people you're doing the training ->with<--key word. We're all learning this together, and not just Kunlun, but ALL things.

 

Hive mind people, although we're individuals we are one collective of consciousness.

 

We should be sharing information, not our egos. We all already own one of those. haha.