Fire or Water?

[dwai]

Friends,

 

I've been reading Bruce Frantzis' excellent two volume series on Water Method of Taoist Meditation and find that the Water method seems to be somewhat different from the type of Taoist Tai Chi I am learning.

 

In our system so far, we have focussed on single form practice and the micro-cosmic orbit and moving energy first with Yi and then just go with the flow (without Yi). Per Bruce Frantzis' description, this a Fire Method. But then again there are some aspects of just letting things happen as they happen, without trying to force too much onto the system, which my teacher tells me seems like it is the Water Method (dissolving blockages and the mindstream, etc).

 

Does anyone here follow either pure Fire or Pure Water Method?

Any thoughts you would want to share on either or both the techniques?

Warnings/Pitfalls and/or advice?

Edited April 9, 2009 by dwai

[Sloppy Zhang]

The thing is, I don't think there IS a pure water/fire method.

 

I myself have been working through Frantzis' energy gates book. On kind of an intellectual level, I like his idea of "ice to water to gas". But in practice, it seemed really.... I dunno, I could never get the right feeling or intention.

 

But then I thought about science courses I took when I was a kid, talking about temperature, then you think about cooking and stuff, I thought about the process that transforms water to gas. You have to get HOT to transform water to gas. I mean, all along I've had this "cool" thought in my head (temperature wise), about the "water method", and how "fire method" type of "heat" is bad.... but then I was like, wait a minute, you gotta get pretty hot to change water into gas! Then stuff really started happening to me.

 

That's just kind of a personal observation that I found in my training. It's pretty general, and specific to myself, so it's not of those things you won't really find in a book, but something you find from personal practice.

 

HOWEVER, Michael Winn wrote an article about the Fire vs. Water "debate", and he does bring up a good point, that you do need fire to turn water to gas. Even thought Frantzis talks about not "forcing" things like the fire schools, you do have to center your intention on a blockage and "work through it"... though not in a "burn it" way, but in a "dissolve" it way. But even then, it kind of blurs the lines.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[goldisheavy]

Friends,

 

I've been reading Bruce Frantzis' excellent two volume series on Water Method of Taoist Meditation and find that the Water method seems to be somewhat different from the type of Taoist Tai Chi I am learning.

 

In our system so far, we have focussed on single form practice and the micro-cosmic orbit and moving energy first with Yi and then just go with the flow (without Yi). Per Bruce Frantzis' description, this a Fire Method. But then again there are some aspects of just letting things happen as they happen, without trying to force too much onto the system, which my teacher tells me seems like it is the Water Method (dissolving blockages and the mindstream, etc).

 

Does anyone here follow either pure Fire or Pure Water Method?

Any thoughts you would want to share on either or both the techniques?

Warnings/Pitfalls and/or advice?

 

We've discussed this before. There is no way to separate intention from unintentional. It's one continuum. Essentially everything is intention, period. "Going with the flow" is intentional.

 

The take away point is that intention shifts from survival mode toward ornamentation. In a normal person the mind is desperately trying to maintain survival and status accumulation. The experience is highly structured. It doesn't seem like a game at all. It seems serious. It seems like there are many many things one must do and if one doesn't do them, the consequences appear dire. So one's intention is spent that way. This is accompanied by a feeling that one has few real choices.

 

The problem is not presence or absence of intention, but its structure or character.

 

Better life results from a more loosely structured intention, with less desperation. Less desperation means you don't work for survival or for status, but you work purely in an ornamental capacity. In other words, you move, not because you must or ELSE, but because it's cool and fun, etc. The "the life is holding a gun to my head" feeling is gone. There is a feeling that one has infinite alternatives open. Kind of like walking through an open plane instead of walking through a narrow mountain pass that can only be passed in exactly one way. That's the mastery of life that everyone seeks.

Edited April 9, 2009 by goldisheavy

[gendao]

In alchemy, you must raise steam to form the clouds of Avalon.

[Creation]

I am a huge fan of B.F. Frantzis' work. Sometimes he comes off as hard on fire methods, but he admits he is a water method person who hurt himself with fire methods, and says other people might be more suited for them.

 

Something I've noticed is that the water method is very subtle. It's trying to be wu wei from the get go instead of doing stuff to get to a wu wei state. Anyone who has tried to be wu wei in real life knows that that is easier said than done. It does seem that if you don't really "get" the water method on a level above the intellectual you must use fire to make substantial progress. I think this makes discussion of water versus fire hard. Dissolving is a very subtle thing that for all my efforts I do not come close to understanding it. A long time BKF student once posted this on the form:

 

At first, much energy was spent over-dissolving. I threw a massive amount of energy into dissolving. I had been trained to focus fiercely like a beam and my dissolving was poor quality. I could do it, but it was draining and that draining was not the effortless hallmark of water method, of letting go, of effort without striving. I spent the first year or so dissolving like that. It works but it is hard work and it was not supposed to be.

 

Then I stumbled upon the trick of causing the dissolving reaction by barely dissolving at all. I went instantly from using 1000 volts of focus to get 1 volt of dissolving to using 1 volt of focus and getting 1000 volts of dissolving from it. It was like a technology breakthrough. When you can join with the mindstream, you can use a minimal amount of energy and the reaction sustains and you can dissolve as long as you wish, without interruption, for hours, days and weeks if you so desire.

 

(From the very long post here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry68729 )

 

I fear that I will never really learn this from a book, and studying with BKF is not cheap. But there is something about this that really appeals to me. Until I can figure it out I will have to utilize a fair amount of fire methods. Which is fine. I don't think I am necessarily a water method only person (as if I am qualified to judge that anyway at my current level of understanding ) but there is something very attractive to me about the water method. I remain hopeful.

[dwai]

I am a huge fan of B.F. Frantzis' work. Sometimes he comes off as hard on fire methods, but he admits he is a water method person who hurt himself with fire methods, and says other people might be more suited for them.

 

Something I've noticed is that the water method is very subtle. It's trying to be wu wei from the get go instead of doing stuff to get to a wu wei state. Anyone who has tried to be wu wei in real life knows that that is easier said than done. It does seem that if you don't really "get" the water method on a level above the intellectual you must use fire to make substantial progress. I think this makes discussion of water versus fire hard. Dissolving is a very subtle thing that for all my efforts I do not come close to understanding it. A long time BKF student once posted this on the form:

(From the very long post here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry68729 )

 

I fear that I will never really learn this from a book, and studying with BKF is not cheap. But there is something about this that really appeals to me. Until I can figure it out I will have to utilize a fair amount of fire methods. Which is fine. I don't think I am necessarily a water method only person (as if I am qualified to judge that anyway at my current level of understanding ) but there is something very attractive to me about the water method. I remain hopeful.

 

I have tried doing the "Outer" dissolving with some success, but as in the post you quoted, it seems to take a lot of effort to do the dissolving. But when it works it works like a charm. I have a problem with the left side of my body, which is very difficult to shoong. I tried integrating dissolving (based on the books) into my regular practice (eg: dissolving on my one hour train (each way) ride to work and back back then) but it was hard to reconcile the two practices.

 

So now, I have started doing the preparatory work BKF recommends, starting with releasing, and it seems to help. The tenseness in certain spots on my left side, jaw, neck/shoulder along the Gallbladder meridian seems to release automatically.

 

So the trick is to be effortless (as is mentioned in the Tai Chi Classics)...but that is a very hard state to attain...

[Trunk]

Does anyone here follow either pure Fire or Pure Water Method?

Any thoughts you would want to share on either or both the techniques?

Warnings/Pitfalls and/or advice?

I would say that they are not so much separate schools as complementary strategies, appropriate for different people at different times. One teacher I met gave an instruction and would add, "for you for now". The kind of work appropriate to someone whose tissues and channels are open, might be the kind of work that really mess up a typical person with only a western exercise background... or do nothing for them at all. Throw in the fact that people vary a great deal by body type, temperment, mind training, endocrine pattern... you could see that some people consider that teaching just one person, in person, at a time (or at most a very small group) - on at least a semi-regular basis - is maybe the only way that anything ever gets done in learning a system. And by "learning", I mean actually getting it in your body. I mean, I'm all "bravo!" for good teachers who are brave enough to teach many people, but I think that also the other pt of view is valuable to consider. One thing that I've learned by reading these forums, btw, is that a question is often best answered in all kind o' different ways.

 

 

Cheers,

[Creation]

So the trick is to be effortless (as is mentioned in the Tai Chi Classics)...but that is a very hard state to attain...

Yeah that's the whole mystery of it. One of the things I like about Frantzis is how he only presents a few deceptively simple exercises that are extremely deep. No flashy stuff: if you want to get something out of it you have to dig very deep. So Opening the Energy Gates has 7 exercises total and Relaxing into Your Being has 4 (I think). To get dissolving you need to first get really good at proper breathing and alignment, the ability to scan/feel your body, release downward and sink, and really be able to feel qi. Then to really get dissolving you have to get into the mindstream. This stuff is very nontrivial!

 

By the way, are you a student or grandstudent of Waysun Liao? Buying his Essence of Tai Chi in a campus bookstore about a year ago is the main catalyst for my getting serious about learning Taoism and qigong.

[dwai]

Yeah that's the whole mystery of it. One of the things I like about Frantzis is how he only presents a few deceptively simple exercises that are extremely deep. No flashy stuff: if you want to get something out of it you have to dig very deep. So Opening the Energy Gates has 7 exercises total and Relaxing into Your Being has 4 (I think). To get dissolving you need to first get really good at proper breathing and alignment, the ability to scan/feel your body, release downward and sink, and really be able to feel qi. Then to really get dissolving you have to get into the mindstream. This stuff is very nontrivial!

 

By the way, are you a student or grandstudent of Waysun Liao? Buying his Essence of Tai Chi in a campus bookstore about a year ago is the main catalyst for my getting serious about learning Taoism and qigong.

 

Hi Creation,

 

I agree with your analysis of BKF's style. I personally find it very appealing and love the "story-teller" way of conveying profound stuff.

 

Also I am a grand-student of Master Liao. I have been studying under his disciple since 2003. All of Master Liao's books are great. My personal favorite is the "Nine Nights with the Taoist Master" - since it too mixes the Story-telling style with conveyance of Taoist teachings in a most brilliant manner.

[Planochigung]

There is a common trap that I have seen many fall into where they use visualizations and apply literal interpretation to a kinesthetic sensation such as the dissolving process. Just another reason why personal instruction is the best way to get started with any of this stuff.

 

Ice to water to gas is not that there is some mystical steam you have created, using heat, rising out and away from you, in the literal or imagined sense, but more of a guide or idea to get you moving in the right direction towards feeling the release of the tissue and all the underlying stuff.

 

Some get the idea from the example of a square inch of table or what ever, when solid, fills only so much space and the molecules have a certain amount of space between them. when moving to liquid those molecules then have more space and experience a bit more movement ,and then to gas, those same parts with enough space would fill the room or more. Again not literal but the idea helps to guide one in the general direction of expansion by releasing.

 

My two cents

 

Aaron

[Creation]

Thanks for contributing Aaron. Welcome to the Tao Bums!

 

There is a common trap that I have seen many fall into where they use visualizations and apply literal interpretation to a kinesthetic sensation such as the dissolving process. Just another reason why personal instruction is the best way to get started with any of this stuff.

 

Ice to water to gas is not that there is some mystical steam you have created, using heat, rising out and away from you, in the literal or imagined sense, but more of a guide or idea to get you moving in the right direction towards feeling the release of the tissue and all the underlying stuff.

 

Some get the idea from the example of a square inch of table or what ever, when solid, fills only so much space and the molecules have a certain amount of space between them. when moving to liquid those molecules then have more space and experience a bit more movement ,and then to gas, those same parts with enough space would fill the room or more. Again not literal but the idea helps to guide one in the general direction of expansion by releasing.

 

My two cents

 

Aaron

I suspected something like this was the case, but like you said, all I've got is a book. I am nowhere near any Energy Arts Instructors, so a seminar with BKF seems like my best bet to get personal instruction. What seminar would you suggest for someone whose primary interest is the meditative part of the tradition? Moreover, since Frantzis charges an arm and a leg for his longer stuff do you think I could get a good grasp on this stuff from a weekend seminar, i.e. good enough to be able to go and practice on my own with the confidence that I am doing, e.g. dissolving correctly and effectively? Also, do you notice any grave errors in what I posted?

 

Longtime practitioners of Frantzis' stuff seem to be underrepresented on this forum. Pietro and Jess rarely post and Buddy and Jane are gone... So I am very pleased that you have shown up. But I do apologize for thrusting you into a teaching/advising role on your first post .

 

Thanks,

Tyler

[Planochigung]

No apologies needed. I am getting into this sharing experiences thing, and this seems like a good place.

 

Yes Bruce's stuff is expensive , but in my opinion worth it. I personally enjoy getting a huge chunk of material, at a seminar, and then spending the next six months to a year working on all the smaller pieces.

 

Or when you can, his senior instructors have a lot to offer as well, those I have worked with have a lot to give and are great at making sure you get the real stuff and not what your imagination wants to give you.

 

If you are interested in the meditation side, Bruce's two meditation books are great. The best thing I have found for me was getting a very smooth, even, long, relaxed breath really just lets everything fall into place (mentally physically,etc). This in turn is a great place to start the meditation stuff as it would give me a home base so to speak when things would get rough.

 

And as always the standing and relaxing and releaseing practice in OEG book is fantastic.

 

Good luck,

 

Aaron

[Sloppy Zhang]

There is a common trap that I have seen many fall into where they use visualizations and apply literal interpretation to a kinesthetic sensation such as the dissolving process. Just another reason why personal instruction is the best way to get started with any of this stuff.

 

Ice to water to gas is not that there is some mystical steam you have created, using heat, rising out and away from you, in the literal or imagined sense, but more of a guide or idea to get you moving in the right direction towards feeling the release of the tissue and all the underlying stuff.

 

Some get the idea from the example of a square inch of table or what ever, when solid, fills only so much space and the molecules have a certain amount of space between them. when moving to liquid those molecules then have more space and experience a bit more movement ,and then to gas, those same parts with enough space would fill the room or more. Again not literal but the idea helps to guide one in the general direction of expansion by releasing.

 

My two cents

 

Aaron

 

Thanks for the perspective

[JessOBrien]

Hi all,

 

Yeah the Fire v. Water thing is a bit oversimplified. I see it as Bruce's way of orienting people toward the way of practicing, keeping one focused on the wu wei aspect of "soft" intention rather than "hard" intention.

 

Perfectionism and hard-driving, results-focused lifestyle might lead someone to overdo things in the world of internal practice.

 

So the Water concept might seem a bit overboard, but it's meant to keep people from straining themselves forcing microcosmic orbits or clenching themselves up trying to transform one thing to another.

 

He always emphasizes that you use a soft intention - focus your attention but without attachment to forcing results.

 

As mentioned above Ice-Water-Gas is a metaphor. It's pointing to an experience that cannot be put into words. The way Bruce teaches it, you put your attention on the painful place and leave it there. Don't try to do anything, just keep your mind there, which can be incredibly hard. Pain is something we flee from, not go into. But with time, that attention will of it's own accord allow the tension to dissolve, in it's own good time. Hopefully..

 

It's the slow but sure way of things, and I think there are ups and downs to either path. Bruce himself was/is an extremely Fire person, so this "water" perspective helped him balance out. Others may need a little more zap in their practice to really get it moving.

 

For me, I came to him to learn martial arts. The "water" orientation of using softness and relaxation to create power, helped me learn how to take hits better, find openings better, and hit much much harder. Lately he's been teaching much more meditation stuff, which folds perfectly into the martial practices.

 

Overall, there are many ways to go about this stuff, and Bruce has some really inspiring ideas. One event of his should give you enough to work on for a year. Each of the parts of his system contain the whole within them, so one course should give you an entry door to find the pieces that you want to work on.

 

Best of luck and good training!

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O'Brien

[Creation]

Yes Bruce's stuff is expensive , but in my opinion worth it. I personally enjoy getting a huge chunk of material, at a seminar, and then spending the next six months to a year working on all the smaller pieces.

Yeah, I'm sure it is worth it. But it will take a while for me to save up that kind of money, so life's just frustrating like that.

 

Or when you can, his senior instructors have a lot to offer as well, those I have worked with have a lot to give and are great at making sure you get the real stuff and not what your imagination wants to give you.

The instructors I've looked into seem to offer regular classes instead of seminars. Who are the exceptions?

 

If you are interested in the meditation side, Bruce's two meditation books are great. The best thing I have found for me was getting a very smooth, even, long, relaxed breath really just lets everything fall into place (mentally physically,etc). This in turn is a great place to start the meditation stuff as it would give me a home base so to speak when things would get rough.

Yeah, Relaxing into Your Being is probably my favorite book on Taoism. I've been working on the internal breathing lessons (I have the CDs too) for almost 10 months. I have a lot of junk deep inside and sustaining concentration is not my strong suit, so it is going very slowly.

 

And as always the standing and relaxing and releaseing practice in OEG book is fantastic.

Just to clarify, there is no real difference between that and the standing practice in RiyB right?

Good luck

Thanks.

 

 

Hi all,

...

As mentioned above Ice-Water-Gas is a metaphor. It's pointing to an experience that cannot be put into words. The way Bruce teaches it, you put your attention on the painful place and leave it there. Don't try to do anything, just keep your mind there, which can be incredibly hard. Pain is something we flee from, not go into. But with time, that attention will of it's own accord allow the tension to dissolve, in it's own good time. Hopefully..

...

Overall, there are many ways to go about this stuff, and Bruce has some really inspiring ideas. One event of his should give you enough to work on for a year. Each of the parts of his system contain the whole within them, so one course should give you an entry door to find the pieces that you want to work on.

 

Best of luck and good training!

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O'Brien

Hi Jess.

 

Thanks for contributing. I'm glad you are still hanging around the forum.

 

Tyler

[turbo]

 

If you are interested in the meditation side, Bruce's two meditation books are great. The best thing I have found for me was getting a very smooth, even, long, relaxed breath really just lets everything fall into place (mentally physically,etc). This in turn is a great place to start the meditation stuff as it would give me a home base so to speak when things would get rough.

 

 

I had BKF's "Longevity Breathing" DVD for some time. The practice contained on that DVD is the best breathing practice and in the top 5 meditative techniques I have encountered. Highly recommended. I need to purchase it again. The practice of this method yields a calm state from which any other practice/meditation can flow. It is a wholly different product from his two CD product. Get the DVD.

[Jesse]

 

Just to clarify, there is no real difference between that and the standing practice in RiyB right?

Thank

 

 

Tyler

 

Yes, your right they are the same ones.

 

Jesse