what is "red Phoenix"

[Seth Ananda]

Ah another absolutely fucking pointless poster wanting in on the drama. Thanks. I'm done with this topic for good...if anyone wants to engage me in discussion do it via PM...I am not returning.

thats disappointing!

 

I don't want in on the drama, but I do want you to stop lording it over this thread.

 

I was hoping that once you calmed down, you would be open to describing the 'whys' and 'hows' of kunlun being a good or genuine Internal alchemy system, as that is something I am interested in.

 

Why do you feel it works? What do you feel that it is doing, and how is that alchemical?

[Green Tiger]

That was my personal experience with red phoenix a couple of years ago. I still agree with myself. I have nothing to gain from saying it, and absolutely no wish to convince you or other non-practitioners of anything. This is a thread about kunlun or red phoenix...for practitioners or people who are interested to discuss those things ONLY.

 

For those who are here for a real purpose, this is what the official website says of red phoenix:

 

And what about the people who are interested in defaming kunlun? Aren't they still interested in kunlun?

 

I MIGHT have been interested in kunlun prior to reading this thread. If the website were my only exposure, I MIGHT have been persuaded to pay for a skype lesson. After reading what you've said about kunlun, Scotty, I have lost interest. You've made bombastic claims about your experiences with kunlun, and the teacher. Whatever the truth may be, your representation of kunlun here has made it suspect, in my mind.

 

Not unlike Jesus, Max's only fault may be his followers.

 

EDIT: Green Tiger is TOTALLY in this thread for the drama.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Green Tiger

[Owledge]

Not unlike Jesus, Max's only fault may be his followers.

I think it's always 50/50. Otherwise it would exclude people from responsibility.

I think Max is simply learning, making mistakes. He doesn't have an easy life.

[Cameron]

Wow you guys are hard on each other.

 

Bickering over our respective paths?

 

If I wanted to do that I could have picked Catholocism or Islam a long time ago.

 

Tao Bums, unfortunately, doesn't remotely resemble my interest in Eastern Spirituality.

 

I am embarassed to ever mention this place to any lineage adepts I meet in China. And I am embarassed Max had to have his name dragged through this crap.

 

We are the representatives of Taoist practice in the West?

 

Thank God that's not actually the case.

 

Peace out

[Thunder_Gooch]

Really Scotty is not at fault, I am. I opened my mouth when I shouldn't have. I need to remember to think before I write.

 

It wasn't my intention to offend or stir up trouble. I just act without thinking sometimes and need to remember not to do that.

 

My apologies to everyone, I didn't mean to cause a problem.

[JustARandomPanda]

EDIT: Green Tiger is TOTALLY in this thread for the drama.

 

 

Stop! Stop! You guys are killing me! :lol:

 

 

OMG I've been laughing my butt off over this thread.

[Seth Ananda]

Really Scotty is not at fault, I am. I opened my mouth when I shouldn't have. I need to remember to think before I write.

 

It wasn't my intention to offend or stir up trouble. I just act without thinking sometimes and need to remember not to do that.

 

My apologies to everyone, I didn't mean to cause a problem.

Dont worry mate. from what I remember, you always made it clear that what you said was just your personal perspective and not some objective irrefutable fact.

[Seth Ananda]

Wow you guys are hard on each other.

 

Bickering over our respective paths?

 

If I wanted to do that I could have picked Catholocism or Islam a long time ago.

 

Tao Bums, unfortunately, doesn't remotely resemble my interest in Eastern Spirituality.

 

I am embarassed to ever mention this place to any lineage adepts I meet in China. And I am embarassed Max had to have his name dragged through this crap.

 

We are the representatives of Taoist practice in the West?

 

Thank God that's not actually the case.

 

Peace out

 

A controversial teacher is going to Inspire controversial topics. Not that surprising. I thought this one was a lot more civil, than some of the Max bashes in the past.

 

And you have to admit, he does make some big claims, so there fore he gets scrutinized...

[Owledge]

"What is Red Phoenix?"

 

... The first step of a communist invasion of Arizona.

[Owledge]

Dont worry mate. from what I remember, you always made it clear that what you said was just your personal perspective and not some objective irrefutable fact.

Can you provide evidence for that statement? No, since nobody can know what you remember and what not. So the statement can neither be proved nor disproved. And apart from that... The thesis didn't go through a beer review process.

[goldisheavy]

Scotty,

 

No one can take away your practice. If something works for you, it's in the bank, done and done. How can anyone touch that? How can people steal or dilute your experiences? How can people plant beliefs in your mind that you don't want? It's impossible, right?

 

Is there a single spiritual teacher that generates a universal agreement? I can't think of one. Jesus was crucified. Buddha had (and has) many detractors. And that's talking about the famous guys. What to say of less famous? Anyone who sticks their neck out with teachings is liable to receive criticism at some point. Sometimes that criticism is undeserved and is not based on logic or experience. Sometimes it's deserved and well supported in both reason and experience.

 

People who don't like this kind of dynamic stay private. This is easier in some ways, because by not exposing your opinions, beliefs, and methods you don't invite criticism (or praise). At the same time, this way of behaving doesn't benefit people very much. It's selfish. It's doing what's best for you and being unwilling to slightly hurt or discomfort oneself (or one's ego/mask) for the sake of others (other egos, masks). I think there is merit in both staying private and going public, but I lean toward public, especially if what you know is truly beneficial for humanity to discover.

 

In any case, Max has metaphorically hung up a shingle, opened himself up to the public. And here we are.

 

I hope you can brush this stuff off and return to this thread Scotty. I don't think anyone has ill intent. I am sure (pls correct me anyone) that if you feel the practice has been beneficial for you, people support it at least for you (even if they themselves don't want to try it). No one (again, pls correct me if I am wrong) intends to hurt or disrespect you.

Edited April 20, 2012 by goldisheavy

[Cameron]

If you want to talk shit about Max talk shit.

 

I don't care, Max has accomplished enough he doesn't need to say the crazy stuff. But let's be honest it was Chris marketing that did that.

 

I think Chris is a great guy but he's very Hollywood. He's a movie director. So what was not a big deal for him to talk about apparently is too far out for the conservative Tao Bums.

 

Anyway, I am going to ask Kan very directly about his advice on all this stuff. If I continue communicating here or not it will be with his blessing.

 

Max himself has already said he doesn't like the vibe here. But I don't like leaving all these damn questions hanging with know one who really knows(Max, Kan, Chris etc) answering them.

 

Probably I just need to let go. I am just a student not the teacher.

 

Cam

[humbleone]

So i have been practising kunlun for little over a year, and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future. learned it from an apprentice.

 

despite some of the negativity, the last few pages of this thread have been a good read. chock full of good information. I also really liked reading scotty's posts.

 

some thoughts to share by a newbie

 

--kunlun does deliver on its promise of rapid progress

 

--red phoenix, imho should not be practiced by most. very high level and extermely dangerous if NOT done correctly. I have first hand experience of this. best to learn it directly from Max.

 

--I believe most of the problems associated with kunlun are caused by the students themselves, ie not practising it correctly with proper guidance.

 

--kunlun is like driving a formula one racing car, you need a lot of caution if the driver is a newbie. slow down, space out the practice sessions. spend a lot of time in closing. do lots of physical grounding exercises.

 

--best to have an active student-teacher relationship. in the old days people would learn kunlun type practices directly from the teacher in a monastery like setting, where the student would be a resident. so lots of student-teacher interaction. fast foward to 2012, where you fly in for a day or two day workshop and then fly back . very little further student-teacher interaction. that is why it is very important imho to seek out other advance students and teachers.

 

--I have done a lot of research into this, talked in person with students, met people online, hours upon hours of website surfing. I must say there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence the students who stick with kunlun over the years are more prone to running into issues, qigong psychosis and entity attachement. both extermerly serious.

 

--most of the people who are attracted to kunlun(including myself, are slightly off). we seem to be attacted to it by its promise of rapid progess and block removal. frankly speaking, most of us who are attracted to qigong in general are wounded birds, we are trying to heal ourselvs or fix some issue in our lives. so it is hard to say the problems we run into with kunlun are a result of the baggage we already carry or is it just kunlun itself. I would tend to say the student is more of an issue, what he/she brings with her to the practice

 

--then there is the issue of sifu jenny lamb. she is the one who taught max what he now calls kunlun. very similar practice but two very different teachers, so the lineage is very different, thus the practice feel and results. your choice...

 

--in closing, I would say there is much gold in kunlun, but it needs to be mined properly

 

all the best

[jeffrito]

Have we actually had a conclusive answer for this question?

 

Is Red Phoenix the same as Red Sun, which is outlined here http://kunlun-tao.com/2009/08/red-sun-kunlun-nei-gong/

[三江源]

.

Edited March 13, 2015 by 三江源

[Aaron]

Wow you guys are hard on each other.

 

Bickering over our respective paths?

 

If I wanted to do that I could have picked Catholocism or Islam a long time ago.

 

Tao Bums, unfortunately, doesn't remotely resemble my interest in Eastern Spirituality.

 

I am embarassed to ever mention this place to any lineage adepts I meet in China. And I am embarassed Max had to have his name dragged through this crap.

 

We are the representatives of Taoist practice in the West?

 

Thank God that's not actually the case.

 

Peace out

 

Heh... this is nothing compared to what happened in China. Schools fought all the time, sometimes quite violently. What made you think Taoism was any different than any other religion? Someone's got to be right, right?

 

Aaron

[Owledge]

Have we actually had a conclusive answer for this question?

 

Is Red Phoenix the same as Red Sun, which is outlined here http://kunlun-tao.com/2009/08/red-sun-kunlun-nei-gong/

 

I found something ironic on that website.

 

Read this story:

http://kunlun-tao.com/2010/09/a-journey-called-life/

and after that check the sponsors at the bottom of the page.

[joeblast]

So i have been practising kunlun for little over a year, and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future. learned it from an apprentice.

 

despite some of the negativity, the last few pages of this thread have been a good read. chock full of good information. I also really liked reading scotty's posts.

 

some thoughts to share by a newbie

 

--kunlun does deliver on its promise of rapid progress

 

--red phoenix, imho should not be practiced by most. very high level and extermely dangerous if NOT done correctly. I have first hand experience of this. best to learn it directly from Max.But, it is simple, and so long as one is doing the main root things of any practice, i.e. focused awareness, it is very easy to stay on track with it. You either do or you dont. In that vein I would say, dont do it if you're not going to take it seriously.

 

--I believe most of the problems associated with kunlun are caused by the students themselves, ie not practising it correctly with proper guidance. If anything, not doing enough closedown. But the practices do dig up any crap you have.

 

--kunlun is like driving a formula one racing car, you need a lot of caution if the driver is a newbie. slow down, space out the practice sessions. spend a lot of time in closing. do lots of physical grounding exercises.And yet, taking a turn with a formula one car you really need to be in it and going fast enough otherwise you slide right through the turn - formula one cars get a tremendous amount of downforce from the spoilers and if there's not enough of that then the tires dont stick. Sorta the same thing as "let go and have no preconceived notions" in the practice. Do or do not, there is no try.

 

--best to have an active student-teacher relationship. in the old days people would learn kunlun type practices directly from the teacher in a monastery like setting, where the student would be a resident. so lots of student-teacher interaction. fast foward to 2012, where you fly in for a day or two day workshop and then fly back . very little further student-teacher interaction. that is why it is very important imho to seek out other advance students and teachers.That contrasts with the story of having it whispered to you through a bamboo tube and off you go, practice, dont come back until you've made some realizations.

 

--I have done a lot of research into this, talked in person with students, met people online, hours upon hours of website surfing. I must say there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence the students who stick with kunlun over the years are more prone to running into issues, qigong psychosis and entity attachement. both extermerly serious. More like the ones that are haphazard - the ones who diligently stick to the practices and do them properly, mind their closings, find significant stillness, are the ones who are less likely to have issues.

 

--most of the people who are attracted to kunlun(including myself, are slightly off). we seem to be attacted to it by its promise of rapid progess and block removal. frankly speaking, most of us who are attracted to qigong in general are wounded birds, we are trying to heal ourselvs or fix some issue in our lives. so it is hard to say the problems we run into with kunlun are a result of the baggage we already carry or is it just kunlun itself. I would tend to say the student is more of an issue, what he/she brings with her to the practice"What's in there?"

 

"Only what you bring with you..."

 

--then there is the issue of sifu jenny lamb. she is the one who taught max what he now calls kunlun. very similar practice but two very different teachers, so the lineage is very different, thus the practice feel and results. your choice...

 

--in closing, I would say there is much gold in kunlun, but it needs to be mined properly As there is in each of us

 

all the best

[Friend]

So what are the results of Phoenix and what are the "sideeffects"?

I want to hear an answer from those who could reap the fruits by doing this practise.

[Jetsun]

I would expect Kunlun was originally taught as part of a wider system within an appropriate community which had preliminary teachings to prepare the ground before doing the exercise, for example in Tibetan Buddhism you are meant to master the basic teachings and meditation absorbtion states before doing the powerful Tantric exercises otherwise "both guru and disciple will fall over the precipice of spiritual disaster like two oxen yoked together" (Milarepa talking about preparation for the 6 Yogas of Naropa). But for whatever reason neither Jenny Lamb or Max seem to think any sort of basic preparation is necessary for Kunlun, rather they add even more powerful exercises on afterwards. I don't know if this is necessary because we have such great blockages now we need the more powerful techniques straight away or whether it is just irresponsible.

[humbleone]

[--in closing, I would say there is much gold in kunlun, but it needs to be mined properly As there is in each of us ]

 

good reply to my post joeblast. thanks!

 

I would like to hear more from experienced kunluners. the thread negativity, sadly tends to clam people up

 

I have come to realize that practices like stillness movement, SFQ, kunlun are very different than more generic forms of Qigong like Zhan Zhuang. There is a need for much greater vigilence on part of the student to do it correctly, otherwise the negative consequences show up rather quickly.

[humbleone]

I would expect Kunlun was originally taught as part of a wider system within an appropriate community which had preliminary teachings to prepare the ground before doing the exercise, for example in Tibetan Buddhism you are meant to master the basic teachings and meditation absorbtion states before doing the powerful Tantric exercises otherwise "both guru and disciple will fall over the precipice of spiritual disaster like two oxen yoked together" (Milarepa talking about preparation for the 6 Yogas of Naropa). But for whatever reason neither Jenny Lamb or Max seem to think any sort of basic preparation is necessary for Kunlun, rather they add even more powerful exercises on afterwards. I don't know if this is necessary because we have such great blockages now we need the more powerful techniques straight away or whether it is just irresponsible.

 

I think you bring up some really good points.

 

I see students show up at workshops and group practice sessions without any previous preparation. I mean kunlun is their first introduction to Qigong some of the students don't even have any previous meditation experience. they may taken a yoga class or something, or like Indian food!

 

In sifu Jenny Lambs defence, I would say, she taught her method only to a select few students. She taught them privately.

[C T]

I think you bring up some really good points.

 

I see students show up at workshops and group practice sessions without any previous preparation. I mean kunlun is their first introduction to Qigong some of the students don't even have any previous meditation experience. they may taken a yoga class or something, or like Indian food!

 

In sifu Jenny Lambs defence, I would say, she taught her method only to a select few students. She taught them privately.

This is one of the more obvious shortcomings faced by contemporary students. Nowadays everyone wants instant results.

 

In the past, for example, in monasteries, out of hundreds of novices, only 3 or 4 get the go-ahead to proceed into the 'secret' stages, not secret because the methods are advanced, but because the handful of students have shown, during the preliminary stages, their hidden potential to advance, and are then given the opportunity to do so. The methods are available to all, but not all can ready themselves to receive the methods.

[johndoe2012]

--I have done a lot of research into this, talked in person with students, met people online, hours upon hours of website surfing. I must say there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence the students who stick with kunlun over the years are more prone to running into issues, qigong psychosis and entity attachement. both extermerly serious.

 

--most of the people who are attracted to kunlun(including myself, are slightly off). we seem to be attacted to it by its promise of rapid progess and block removal. frankly speaking, most of us who are attracted to qigong in general are wounded birds, we are trying to heal ourselvs or fix some issue in our lives. so it is hard to say the problems we run into with kunlun are a result of the baggage we already carry or is it just kunlun itself. I would tend to say the student is more of an issue, what he/she brings with her to the practice

 

A lot of people doing Goenka and Mahasi vipassana also run into difficulties like extreme lack of grounding, constant ringing in ears and so on.

 

And these techniques are not even secret.

 

If one listens to one's own body and go slow when needed everything will work out fine.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Nothing is ever quite as it appears. Dive deep into any well and keep digging and it often reveals that nothing is as sure or concrete as you might initially think. This is true of every tradition.

 

It is similar to unpacking what you think you know about anything.

 

Nearly every tradition has undergone quite a shift over the last 100 years. It is what happens to allow survival. The emphasis at any given time in history is intricately bound to the socio-political environment of the time. It will always be this way. You have an audience and you have to cater for that.

 

Even Buddhism and Daoism within monasteries is not always what people beleive it to be. And I'm not even talking of the 'super-secret-special-magic' training behind the big red doors (the doors are always red by the way, otherwise their shit is fake )

 

Nothing is without danger.

 

There are articles and expose's on all kinds of martial arts (even the supposedly 'internal' and cough "health" orientated ones), most forms of yoga, meditation etc and the dangers as someone who suffered lays out their experience. Be the result physcial damage and health issues or mental-emotional ones. This has been getting written about for years, it is nothing new, and isn't going away anytime soon either.

 

Foundation is fundamental, this is true. Yet in my experience, while most teachers will mention this, the reality is that few really know what the 'foundation' they speak of actually is. And rightly so, for in many ways, is it not different for each individual and who they are, their state of Being when they encounter the method?

 

It is not always WHAT you practice, but HOW that matters.

 

And how much are students really hearing what is being said? rather than just listening to the teacher? This is why fewer numbers and closer contact usually, but not always, fosters a better transmission. The teacher can be more aware of what has been heard. Once you've heard it, can you learn it, absorb it? Which is another matter entirely and something I know I struggle with.

 

Pah! bollocks, you don't need to the teacher just give me the practice now on the forum and I'll by John Chang in a year!

 

Just my thoughts. Best,

Edited April 21, 2012 by snowmonki