Can we REALLY KNOW anything in life?

[Mal]

[LoneHaven]

How do we REALLY KNOW anything in life???

I know this is related to the training question, but questions like this always bring me inner contradictions. Here is what I settled on a while back:

 

Knothing can truly be know within the realm of our subjective perceptions - through our internal processing of all information that we recieve and interpret. I cannot prove and truly know that I am hear typing this - it is what I perceive, but I cannot prove this. Sounds a little crazy - but then so are some dreams we all have at night. I accept it based on my perceptions and processing - but how can I really know it.

 

I do have faith that some of you (and all of us can eventually) expand awareness or consciousness outside the realm of subjectivity to where you truly see (not in the visual sense) the objective oneness of all. I do not know this - so at this point it is subjective faith. But I think when you perceive things outside of yourself - this is when knowledge can be really known instead of accepted.

 

So, if you can reach the objective oneness state, illusion is shed and all things are seen - again this is not what I know or have experienced, just what I have internally churned around a while back. There are contradictions in some of this but its how I see things now inside of my beautiful subjective world

[DaoChild]

Can you really know?

 

Sure. Throw a ball at a baby's face, and it will hit and then the baby will cry.

 

Throw the ball at a child's face, and they learn to flinch and cover the face.

 

Reach the age of three, and you realize that once you throw a ball in the air it's almost always going to come back down.

 

Don't I know that?

[gendao]

Can you really know?

 

Sure. Throw a ball at a baby's face, and it will hit and then the baby will cry.

 

Throw the ball at a child's face, and they learn to flinch and cover the face.

 

Reach the age of three, and you realize that once you throw a ball in the air it's almost always going to come back down.

 

Don't I know that?

Right, but you see - this "knowledge" is simply based upon historical consistency. IOW, it's always happened that way before, so you "know" it will always happen like that in the future. But, are historical track records a 100% accurate predictor of the future?

 

If I flip a coin 100X, and it somehow lands heads 100X, does that mean the next time it must also land heads?

 

Or, can you prove that this scenario could NOT happen in another way?

 

Bascially, if we only "know" something through limited experience, how certain is that really? And what's to say it HAS to always behave the same way and CAN'T some other way?

 

I mean sure, the most convincing illusions are the ones that maintain the highest consistency. And maybe one with 100% consistency could even be called a "virtual reality." Except for the fact that the arbitrary rules of an illusion could presmuably also be changed anytime at will by its creator(s).

 

As opposed to an "absolute reality," which would be where the buck finally stops...

 

But, I am just thinking out loud here, as I really DON'T KNOW anymore!

----------------------------

Here's a more routine example:

 

When most of us dream, while we're IN the dream...we believe it's real.

Only when we wake up, do we realize it was just a dream.

So, how do we know we're not in a big, long "dream" now when we're "awake?"

 

Especially considering how you also thought you "knew" things were "real" when you you were dreaming, too?

----------------------------

Here's another thought:

 

Our minds can often be easily tricked...

Or maybe they are even, in fact, what tricks us into this Grand Illusion?

Essentially like game consoles or projectors.

Edited April 13, 2009 by vortex

[DaoChild]

I never said it couldn't be another way.

 

I said "it's almost always going to come back down" - maybe it gets caught in a tree? Maybe a gust of wind takes it, maybe someone else catches it.. gravity is still there, all the time. But something else acted upon it, does that negate gravity? I would say no personally, that something else acts also.

 

 

On the other hand, I highly agree with you regarding dreams. Funny, I was just pondering that this morning. Just like Chuang Tzu speaking about being a butterfly. The brain is fully convinced by the consciousness that THAT is the real reality (I had messed up dreams last night, that I'm GLAD I woke up from..).

 

But anyway - why does the brain PRODUCE dreams, but not realize that it's dreaming? Kinda cool in my opinion.

 

Food for thought,

[Mal]

Bascially, if we only "know" something through limited experience, how certain is that really? And what's to say it HAS to always behave the same way and CAN'T some other way?

 

I mean sure, the most convincing illusions are the ones that maintain the highest consistency.

 

Yes and we so love to "explain" things with science. It's happenes because of X Y Z. But then it turns out after more research that while that explained the phenomena. It wasn't "right". Its A B C that causes it. Then over time that changes to D E F etc...

 

Practices are a bit the same, afterwards we can evaluate the effects. But during it's so hard to know if we are doing the right thing.

i.e. Is is a detox effect or a warning sign.

Visits from spirits, guids or troublemakers.

 

How can you know?

[seadog]

Yes and we so love to "explain" things with science. It's happenes because of X Y Z. But then it turns out after more research that while that explained the phenomena. It wasn't "right". Its A B C that causes it. Then over time that changes to D E F etc...

 

Practices are a bit the same, afterwards we can evaluate the effects. But during it's so hard to know if we are doing the right thing.

i.e. Is is a detox effect or a warning sign.

Visits from spirits, guids or troublemakers.

 

How can you know?

Well one way of knowing is the effect it is having on your body.Does your practice make you stronger?Has your ability to ward off illness increased?Do you smile more,do enjoy being with people,are people attracted to you? Are you happy?

To use an example if you were to eat unwholsome food your body soon tells you.You generaly feel like shit.

 

Our brains make up stories all the time but our bodys always tell the truth.

If uninvited guest come in the night and every hair on your body is standing on end chances are your body is trying to tell you something.

I think one of the greatest benifits of practicing a form of martial art or qigong is it helps to heighten our awareness of what our bodies are trying to tell us.

[Mal]

Cheers Seadog, body sensations are one of the feedback's I look as. But is there a time delay sometimes?

 

This one is another good question along similar lines

 

When I stopped, it went away, then it felt bad after that it was gone.

This made me wonder if

feeling bad after it was gone meant it was bad that I stopped creating the feeling,

or

it was a bad aftereffect from creating the feeling, meaning it was good that I stopped.

[seadog]

Cheers Seadog, body sensations are one of the feedback's I look as. But is there a time delay sometimes?

 

This one is another good question along similar lines

Yeah good question,all I know is that whenever something heavy was occuring or about to occur my body seem to respond instanly while my head was still going wtf.

[gendao]

Well one way of knowing is the effect it is having on your body.Does your practice make you stronger?Has your ability to ward off illness increased?Do you smile more,do enjoy being with people,are people attracted to you? Are you happy?

To use an example if you were to eat unwholsome food your body soon tells you.You generaly feel like shit.

True, but this "knowledge" is still all based off feedback, and subjective feedback at that.

 

But if that feedback were manipulated, then you could be as well.

 

For example, I have a friend who is suffering from some astral "parasites" or something (again, who knows?) right now. Now when she eats nutritious foods, she feels nauseus. But when she doesn't, she is slowly wasting away. IOW, it's a catch-22.

 

So, in this case, the feedback loop appears messed up. Maybe these "negs" have reversed it to manipulate her to starve herself? Or maybe she needs to fast to the brink of death to fully purify herself? She believes she is more or less following her guides...but is she? She thinks she knows, but does she really?

 

Or maybe the problem is something else entirely...

 

Point being, if feedback can also be manipulated...then it's not 100% certain, either.

 

And maybe when all is said and done, if we can one day "wake up" from this life...we would just look back at it all as just a "big illusion" that only happened in Our Big Mind.

[goldisheavy]

[gendao]

That question is a fundamental question. It's a life koan. It's a question that can serve as a central contemplative focus for a life time. Instead of thinking up quick answers to it, it's better to let the question resonate and remain a question in your mind. When this question is left as a question it brings the light of wisdom.

I agree.

 

I think it opens the door to a larger paradigm. And by providing a knee-jerk answer, you are just kicking it shut before you have a chance to step through it - like an armchair expert.

 

I asked my friend this question, and she kept giving quick reflexive "answers," without any original thought. That was missing the point, IMO. But, I just couldn't get her to understand that.

 

 

 

 

To go back to the dream analogy...I think any "reality test" could be performed in a dream. You could throw a ball at a baby and make it cry in a dream. You could do things and see how they affect your health. You could try various things and gauge them by your feedback.

 

But no matter how consistent (or not) the results, if you wake up the next morning, you will ultimately realize it was still all an "illusion." And therefore everything you thought you "knew," was all merely imagined in the end.

 

So, what if what we "know" as LIFE, is like that too?

 

Is this what Buddha meant by AWAKENING?

[Tao99]

I don't know.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Tao99

[gendao]

Only deductive reasoning provides certain conclusions: if the premises are sound and the structure is valid then the conclusion is certain to be true, and to deny it is irrational.

 

Inductive reasoning is basically generalizing from observations to generalizations, but the conclusion is always probable, never a certainty. If every swan I see is white, then I might conclude that probably all swans are white.

 

So if you believe:

 

premise 1. All practices that have healthy and balanced practitioners are sound practices.

 

and that:

 

premise 2. Practice A has healthy and balanced practitioners.

 

Then you are logically correct to conclude with certainty that:

 

conclusion: Practice A is a sound practice.

But as Gold has pointed out, premise 1 is not persuasive for everyone. Ah, so goes debate!

Exactly, deductive reasoning is ONLY as sound as its PREMISES.

 

But, what "absolute truth" are those premises based on? Are these premises really 100% certain themselves? If not, then you've still really proven NOTHING...

 

Instead of a line of answering to build up a set of beliefs, this is really a line of questioning to unravel our chain of assumptions. Where you start off with premise 10089 and work backwards...until you can get down to an Absolute Reality (original premise)...or bust.

[Tao99]

I don't know.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Tao99

[goldisheavy]

Great thread! I hope people can forgive this slightly self-congratulatory praise (isn't all praise self-congratulatory on some level?)...

 

In day to day life, few or no people have the stamina to remain in a questioning frame of mind. This is why speculative knowledge has such currency.

 

Any knowledge that appears certain, only continues to appear certain as long as you don't question it in a determined manner. As soon as you set your mind to question something in a dogged fashion, nothing can stand up. All certainties fall.

 

And yet, how do we know the difference between questioning and non-questioning? We don't question that, do we? We know for sure when we are questioning. We don't say, "Well, maybe I am questioning that..." So there is a level of certainty at the basis of being itself that transcends inspection. Unfortunately that ultimate basis-certainty is useless to anyone but a mystic, and drawing any relative conclusion from it is wrong. It's a certainty of having seen a picture, but not what any of the elements in the picture mean or how they relate, and how things should or should not be in the picture, etc.

 

It's like a vision seen by a mute. He sees, but can't tell what he sees, because his telling is part of the vision he sees. So you don't need to be a mute, you just need to be honest. If you try to describe correctly what you see, you have to describe your act of describing what you see, and it's a never ending loop.

 

In other words, informational field is always whole and cannot be externalized. In an attempt to externalize it, chunks of important information go missing. But that doesn't mean we must stop what we are doing. It just means we should be careful, mindful and happy. That's my opinion.

 

Us trying to tell each other things is a beautiful thing. As long as we see it as ornamental, it's great. It only causes trouble when we take it beyond ornamentation. So it seems to me. Zhuangzi asks the same question. He asks, "When I speak to you, is it just bits of wind or am I really saying something?" If I remember correctly, he never actually answers his own question, as it often is with Zhuangzi, he likes to ask a question and then leave it hanging in the air.

[Mokona]

I have a few unproven ideas. "Everything is an illusion" more than likely describes self limitations. Ill admit that I'm only 22 years old. That very young, but I have had amazing, amazing experiences. I joined this board so I could better understand them, and increase my ability to explore them.

 

Notionally, I can close my eyes and see a man's room whom Ive never met, and describe an object or two. This happened to me once, he verified.. Does that mean anything is possible? That nothing is real?

All it means is that you have to decide for yourself what real is.

[gendao]

The Absolute Reality Axiom - the core assumption or "original premise" 1 in any argument:

 

There is an External Reality (exists independently - with or without consciousness of it) that has an Order to it (tao?) and this order can be known and understood and reasoned about by human consciousness.

 

(I think this might be the underlying assumption of science)

Aha, see now we're getting somewhere...

 

Everything we "know" is based on some fundamental assumptions.

 

But where is the absolute proof for these base assumptions? And if none can be proved ABSOLUTELY, then neither can any other relative assumptions based upon those. Which means, nothing is known absolutely!

 

Or can science prove we are not all in one big dream that we could all wake from one day?

Zhuangzi asks the same question. He asks, "When I speak to you, is it just bits of wind or am I really saying something?" If I remember correctly, he never actually answers his own question, as it often is with Zhuangzi, he likes to ask a question and then leave it hanging in the air.

What we "know" is like a deeeeeply-nested NLP macro. We define and recognize things based upon the sum or our (personal and collective) experiences. Their consistency of which determines the strength of our definition of reality.

 

The scientific method, in fact, uses reproducibility and repeatability as its "proof" of knowing. But, while that may measure the consistency of a system, it cannot prove how "real" that system itself is. I mean, an illusion could have its own set laws it consistenly operates by (like a video game). But, that doesn't mean it can't still just be a game, that is subsumed by a greater system with total override control over it.

Edited April 15, 2009 by vortex

[Tao99]

I don't know.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Tao99

[gendao]

There is an External Space-Time continuum (exists independently - with or without HUMAN consciousness of it) that has an Order to it (tao?) and this order can be known and understood and reasoned about by human consciousness.

 

The discovery of Pluto shows that it exists independently of human consciousness, and the "systematic consistency" of it, as you called it, shows it has a natural order to it. For example, when certain chemical are mixed together, they always explode, or when the atom is split in a power plant it always produces electricity, or the sun always rises in the East, etc. So for those of us living here and trying to understand it and create things here, it's immaterial whether its a dream or the one Reality. Stick a needle in your toe and it will vividly hurt, walk in front of a speeding car and bones will break, flesh will tear, and you will be hospitalized. So even if its a dream it's definitely a Vivid Dream, and requires serious care and understanding to survive and prosper. Living in the Here and Now, it's still true even for mystics: following the Tao of this Nature, is critical and necessary, no matter whether it's all a dream or not.

True, but how do we know that this "reality" might not be the product of a greater (non-human) consciousness? I mean, a dream is not a product of the consciousnesses of the characters IN the dream, either.

 

Perhaps the better question is not HOW, but IF we even can KNOW anything with 100% certainty?

HOW implies that we can...somehow. But, why do we assume that? Shouldn't we prove it first before we "assume" it?

 

And even if you could prove that something absoultely exists in a system...can you ever prove that that system exists (and is not a "dream")?

 

But I do agree that realistically, even if this is a "vivid" DREAM, it is still for our intents and purposes now real ENOUGH to take "seriously."

Edited April 15, 2009 by vortex

[goldisheavy]

I have a few unproven ideas. "Everything is an illusion" more than likely describes self limitations. Ill admit that I'm only 22 years old. That very young, but I have had amazing, amazing experiences. I joined this board so I could better understand them, and increase my ability to explore them.

 

Notionally, I can close my eyes and see a man's room whom Ive never met, and describe an object or two. This happened to me once, he verified.. Does that mean anything is possible? That nothing is real?

All it means is that you have to decide for yourself what real is.

 

That's how I see it. Thing is though, the vision has so much depth to it, some "parts" of it are slow to change, some are not, and it's not necessarily the same from person to person and from time to time, but it's very hard to say what the character of the continuum of experience is like.

 

If you understand the full meaning of what it means for experience to be visionary (like, that it doesn't mean it must be fuzzy or airy or short-lived or any such imposed ideas), then yes, it's all a dream and the only limitations are self-imposed intent. The trick is to see and feel the full character of one's own mind. Most people have false understanding of one's own mind. They see it too narrowly and it's too well-defined, and it's taken for granted, kind of like, "oh yea, it's my mind, of course I know what it is and of course it's mine". In reality for most people the truth is closer to "no you don't know what it is, and while you call it 'yours', it's not really working on your behalf, but is operating in a zombie state on behalf of some nebulous headless-monster-like system of crusty and unexamined belief".

[gendao]

Here's an interesting explanation of Zen that seems to fit here:

Zen means waking up to the present moment. That is, perceiving this moment exactly as it is, rather than through the filter of our ideas, opinions, etc. One way to practice this is to ask yourself a Big Question, such as "What am I?" If you ask such a question strongly and sincerely, what appears is "Don't Know." This don't-know is before thinking. If you keep it moment to moment, then everything is clear. Then, each moment, whatever you're doing, just do it. When you're sitting, just sit; when you're eating, just eat; and so on. According to Zen, existence is found in the silence of the mind (no-mind), beyond the chatter of our internal dialog. Existence, from the Zen perspective is something that is only happening spontaneously, and it is not just our thoughts.

I also stumbled upon this similar technique of holding your focus at the point before thoughts spontaneously arise just last week:

But one little trick I recently found is to keep your mind focused on the point in time RIGHT BEFORE a thought spontaneously arises... This is a clever command line to keep your mind "stuck" in wuji mode.

[Chi kung apprentice]

I think that we can know ONE thing and it is the most important one:

 

We can know if we progressed and made our best effor to do things right or not!

 

Blessings

 

DAvy

[awake]

I think there is mass confusion in this area over misterminology. I know, if I jump out of the building's 50th floor, I will be smooshed at the ground. I cannot be sure of this though.

 

That is the difference.

 

A useful exercise is to see if you can be sure of the next moment.

 

After you come to better understand what that means, can you be sure of this moment?

 

No words...

[gendao]