Spontaneous Qigong; A Report.

[altiora]

Hmmmm...well by chance I googled "spontaneous qigong" and one of the results was:

 

http://linwebsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?...307a88940f84123

 

I've never heard of "Tea House 2.0" before or this Liu I-Ming who posted the topic. The discussion by Liu I-Ming makes some very concerning reading. It appears to be clearly sincere. I think we can guess the identity of "Second Vignettee: Practice Y".

 

It is unfortunate the the moderators of that forum shut the topic down. While I can understand they wished to avoid chaos, I do think that the nature of the claims and the sincerity and ostensible authority that they were made, it would have been ideal to have obtained a lengthy, on topic, response from a suitably qualified practitioner who disagreed with the claims so that we can hear both sides of the story.

 

It would have also have been good to have asked Liu I-Ming for his or her credentials.

 

That said the discussion sounds rather concerning. Would be interested if anyone can provide a qualified response/rebuttal.

[Yoda]

There's a lot of disagreement on this sort of practice. The "Kunlun follow up poll" thread going on right now does make use of this post. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...9592&st=240

[Owledge]

Hm... some details about that report smell a bit fishy to me.

 

And considering that critique should always be welcome and that people like us should deal calmly with matters like this, I think Liu I-ming can use the true names, at least the practices or teachers that he is talking about. A reason for not doing this might be because he knows that his report is a selection of the worst, of possible things. So often practices were denunciated just because like everything else in the world they're not 100% free of danger.

 

I think I will read the Kunlun follow-up thread the whole way through. This is an interesting matter that should be discussed openly and extensively. Maybe we can even invite Liu I-ming to a dialogue here at TTB.

[gendao]

It is unfortunate the the moderators of that forum shut the topic down. While I can understand they wished to avoid chaos, I do think that the nature of the claims and the sincerity and ostensible authority that they were made, it would have been ideal to have obtained a lengthy, on topic, response from a suitably qualified practitioner who disagreed with the claims so that we can hear both sides of the story.

Yea, I don't see why that topic was locked before he even had a chance to finish posting his series? Seems rather harsh...

 

Whoever he is, I would like to hear the rest of his commentary. Maybe he can post it up somewhere else.

 

I think different viewpoints are helpful and all sincere feedback is useful. If people disagree, they can always offer rebuttals. If they agree, then they can find some support. Either way, people may find some more more clarity through open discussion and various interpretations of shared experiences.

 

Or...they may just find more confusion, and question what they thought they "knew" even more! Although ironically, realizing what you don't KNOW, may actually be a step towards greater clarity. Possibly akin to recognizing the possibility of the dream...just being a dream.

Edited April 14, 2009 by vortex

[Ya Mu]

I posted in the other thread that had this posted, here it is:

 

This is utter nonsense posted by someone with prejudice and fear. Simply not true. (referring to original poster and not starjumper) Of course there are teachers out there who don't know what they are doing or who don't care, but generalizing this isn't going to help anyone.

 

 

And this post by Yoda tells the truth:

 

Also, do you think that all spontaneous practices are equal?

 

My thinking is that different teachers may have tapped into different frequencies and therefore they are not equal.

 

edit: I responded to another post in the kunlun thread that applies:

 

But to put all spontaneous forms in the same category is nonsense. I don't really call what I teach "spontaneous qigong". Some people have called it that. It is a system where people move (never seen much "spastic") called Stillness-Movement and it is NOT caused by spirit possession but by direct high-vibrational energies. We have a sitting form and a a standing form. But the energies DO move the practitioner. It appears that you and the OP are trying to lump everything together. Furthermore, out of more than 2,000 students I have not seen a single case of spirit possession happening after the practitioner learned this system. To the contrary, it PROTECTS against such a thing. All systems are not created equal.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Ya Mu

[Owledge]

Does anybody know about Liu I-ming's background? Could there be fear from him that these 'quick' practices endanger his income basis or something more deep, psychological maybe?

[Ian]

I think there are many different practices, and many different approaches to otherwise similar practices, all of which can get lumped together under the name of spontaneous qigong.

 

For example there was a type of spontaneous qigong around about ten years ago, of which my healing tao friends would only say "the damage isn't always permanent" The impression I got was that people were easily led into stuff where vaguely subconcious forces were just acting out and leading them up the garden path while they thought stuff was actually being cleared.

 

I liked what Ya Mu said about the difference between movements caused by high frequency vibrations and movements from other sources.

 

My practice can involve spontaneous movements, but these only arise if one is sufficiently present, i.e. actively reclaiming internal territory, as opposed to allowing anything else in there. We are often warned about indulgence of the sort mentioned above.

 

The first report quoted I've heard before, with specifics, and am tempted to give it some credence, but that shouldn't imply anything about any other group or practice.

[soundhunter]

Someone posted this link here awhile back ago, and I found it fascinating reading, though it's written by a muslim who believes that spontaneous qigong is very very dangerous from a muslim perspective. So perhaps not as relevant if a muslim critical perspective s not what you're looking for, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

[fiveelementtao]

Hmmmm...well by chance I googled "spontaneous qigong" and one of the results was:

 

http://linwebsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?...307a88940f84123

 

I've never heard of "Tea House 2.0" before or this Liu I-Ming who posted the topic. The discussion by Liu I-Ming makes some very concerning reading. It appears to be clearly sincere. I think we can guess the identity of "Second Vignettee: Practice Y".

 

It is unfortunate the the moderators of that forum shut the topic down. While I can understand they wished to avoid chaos, I do think that the nature of the claims and the sincerity and ostensible authority that they were made, it would have been ideal to have obtained a lengthy, on topic, response from a suitably qualified practitioner who disagreed with the claims so that we can hear both sides of the story.

 

It would have also have been good to have asked Liu I-Ming for his or her credentials.

 

That said the discussion sounds rather concerning. Would be interested if anyone can provide a qualified response/rebuttal.

The "report" is completely biased and totally unreliable...

One of the main if not THE main contributor to this "report" is someone from Taobums with ZERO personal experience a very serious personal agenda based on other very serious personal and emotional issues. The "report" is a classic attempt to only search out and distort "evidence" to promote their agenda. If you want a real report on spontaneous qigong, there are many people here on taobums who can give you opinions based on their personal experiences.

Edited April 14, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[三江源]

.

Edited December 14, 2015 by 三江源

[altiora]

Does anybody know about Liu I-ming's background? Could there be fear from him that these 'quick' practices endanger his income basis or something more deep, psychological maybe?

 

 

My apologies for (it seems) posting a link that was already discussed elsewhere. Had done a search on here before doing so, but didn't locate anything suggesting it had. Unsurprising given the pages upon pages of posts that the kunlun topic seems to attract.

 

There are two issues in my view raised by the Liu I-Ming.

 

The first issue is the safety of spontaneous practices. This is quite separate and distinct from the kunlun practice -- there are several other schools of spontaneous qigong I am aware of and I've practiced two of them. In this respect the concerns raised -- about the practices safety -- do warrant serious consideration and discussion. By this I mean whether there are risks tone's health from these practices (leaving aside spirit possession for the moment). Liu I-Ming's comments echo a high level qigong master I studied under, who considered that the risk of psychological and physiological harm was too great and hence discouraged spontaneous qigong. I have read other teachers who have expressed the same view.

 

So I do think it is worth consideration. And I don't think it's to be flicked off by (as so often with the ever-so cyncial westerners) by "poisoning the well" by alleging that they just want to keep power and money to themselves.

 

The second issue is the "implanting" (for want of a better word) by these two particular practices. I can't even begin to comment on the veracity of the particular allegations made.

 

Although I can say I've turned down offers of "transmissions" simply on account of not knowing the person concerned enough. I do sometimes worry about these westerners who think they have some "right" to spiritual transmission. As I understood it transmissions were given to the closest students -- after both the student and the teacher had built up sufficient trust with each other.

[Aetherous]

Awesome response, Altiora. I definitely agree that it's worth consideration. The proof is in the pudding, and if the pudding tastes bad and is lumpy, something must be wrong.

 

Can you mention who the high level qigong master was who said that it's too risky?

[Owledge]

After doing some more reading, three things:

 

1) The report is written in a style that shows an agenda. As one example, describing the transmission with "worms" and "putting things in people" gives it an artificial creepiness.

 

2) The author says he doesn't want responses until he has finished his report, but it's been a month now in "to be continued" state. Maybe he doesn't want dialogue at all in the forum there.

 

3) No matter how revered, how skilled, old or whatever a master is, they often seem to be not immune to ... how can I say it ... those games, those little character streaks that you'd think they are above, being relatively close to enlightenment. But maybe that's the problem... enlightenment doesn't come automatically when you're a Taoist grandmaster.

Has Max ever indulged in those games? Has he judged upon other teachers' practices like I so often read about many different people judging about Max?

 

The picture that I have about Max is that he's far from perfect, just wanting to help and his is the efficient, quick way. No way is perfect. Every practice has its place in this world. If there are things about Max or Kunlun that we feel need to be criticised, we should not cease to be compassionate. Maybe all the drama is caused by Max being such a wonderful person that the difference to the environment causes a thunderstorm.

Abandon the concepts of good and bad, and you still have disagreement and difference.

I get the impression that a great part of the negativity that people see here and there is just their own.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Hardyg

[forestofsouls]

Classic propaganda. Same sort of stuff I used to see around apocalyptic, fundamentalist Christians. Likely the same individual is also against MCOs, Buddhism, and anything other than what he believes/teaches.

 

I also think he is a coward. If he means Kunlun, he should say Kunlun. If he means Sifu Wong, he should say so.

[Yoda]

I'm guessing one of the teachers is Wong Kiew Kit. I have no idea if this is right but, some say that just visiting Sfiu Wong's website can bring in yuckies.

[Sloppy Zhang]

For spontaneous practices in general....

 

Spontaneous practices can be found in a lot of schools. Reading through B.K. Frantzis' book (the Great Stillness), he mentions spontaneous movements in the context of bagua. He says it happens, usually after years of practice, and can really give you a boost.

 

So the thing that he points out there is the "years of practice." Not necessarily because it's a super high level technique reserved for dedicated students and not taught to the uninitiated... but because in those "years of practice" you've developed a very good base for handling energy in your body so that it won't mess you up.

 

Some people are naturally open, clear, calm individuals that can handle energy. Others... not so much. So spontaneous practices after strong foundations? Good overall. Spontaneous practices from the get go? Depends on the person.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Guest winpro07]

Steve Grey A.K.A. Star Jumper and his cohorts created that fake article.

Steve has been threatening to post that for a very along time now.

 

These people are not what they claim to be

 

Steve has done this to other spiritual figures in the past

 

His/their Agenda is non Taoist

 

Steve deleted all his original post from a year ago of his First Attacks to cover his ass and distance him self from others who might connect His very bad behavior with His supposed teacher Fook Yueng

 

Back then he went so far as to kill all links between His Old website and his new one to prevent being found out. Some of us already dug deep and started making phone calls and emails to confirm the validity of his associations -they were fake

Some of us saved his posts

 

there are long time members of this forum who are totally aligned

with them and feigning neutrality

 

There will be new on line names popping up that are involved

 

Steve and Co. will now play their same card as always

 

Be aware of aware of the energy behind their responses -makes you feel joy?

 

And notice that they only respond to sections of this post that they can misconstrue

Edited April 15, 2009 by winpro07

[Ya Mu]

My apologies for (it seems) posting a link that was already discussed elsewhere. Had done a search on here before doing so, but didn't locate anything suggesting it had. Unsurprising given the pages upon pages of posts that the kunlun topic seems to attract.

 

There are two issues in my view raised by the Liu I-Ming.

 

The first issue is the safety of spontaneous practices. This is quite separate and distinct from the kunlun practice -- there are several other schools of spontaneous qigong I am aware of and I've practiced two of them. In this respect the concerns raised -- about the practices safety -- do warrant serious consideration and discussion. By this I mean whether there are risks tone's health from these practices (leaving aside spirit possession for the moment). Liu I-Ming's comments echo a high level qigong master I studied under, who considered that the risk of psychological and physiological harm was too great and hence discouraged spontaneous qigong. I have read other teachers who have expressed the same view.

 

So I do think it is worth consideration. And I don't think it's to be flicked off by (as so often with the ever-so cyncial westerners) by "poisoning the well" by alleging that they just want to keep power and money to themselves.

 

The second issue is the "implanting" (for want of a better word) by these two particular practices. I can't even begin to comment on the veracity of the particular allegations made.

 

Although I can say I've turned down offers of "transmissions" simply on account of not knowing the person concerned enough. I do sometimes worry about these westerners who think they have some "right" to spiritual transmission. As I understood it transmissions were given to the closest students -- after both the student and the teacher had built up sufficient trust with each other.

 

I would really like to address this deeper but no time right now, so let me just re-post what I said above with a couple of additions and clarifications.

But to put all spontaneous forms in the same category is nonsense. I don't really call what I teach "spontaneous qigong". Some people have called it that. It is a system where people move (never seen much "spastic") called Stillness-Movement and it is NOT caused by spirit possession but by direct high-vibrational energies. We have a sitting form and a a standing form. But the energies DO move the practitioner. It appears that you and the OP are trying to lump everything together. Furthermore, out of more than 2,000 students I have not seen a single case of spirit possession happening after the practitioner learned this system. To the contrary, it PROTECTS against such a thing. All systems are not created equal.

 

And as far as health goes, I have never seen this form NOT effect health in a positive manner.

I project qi (I guess one could call it a "transmission" if they just wanted to) everyday to people in clinic. It helps tremendously.

 

Besides the obvious agenda in the OP, all of this is simply fear speaking.

To say that all spontaneous qigong is bad or can cause this or that sounds more like a superstition type of saying. I have certainly heard quite a bit of those from sayings from many who call themselves teachers.

 

ALL teachers ANYONE has ever met, if said teachers vibrational level was above any other particular person, gave that person a "transmission". This is called the magnetic induction effect. Can't really be totally tuned off.

 

I agree that anyone should well research whoever they study with or allow to project qi to them. I don't let just anyone project to me either.

 

But the statement to cast suspicion on ALL forms of spontaneous qigong is an uninformed statement.

[三江源]

.

Edited December 14, 2015 by 三江源

[freeform]

Fear of spontaneity.

 

Fear of sharing energy.

 

=

 

Fear of Life.

 

YES!

[SiliconValley]

The picture that I have about Max is that he's far from perfect, just wanting to help and his is the efficient, quick way. No way is perfect. Every practice has its place in this world.

 

Reading a lot of Chris's posts, who obviously is the official Kunlun mascot (unless Max denies), here is the picture one gets:

 

1. Kunlun is THE practice, quick fix for all ills and road to enlightenment.

2. Kunlun is available for all and there really is no qualification or a certain level of preparedness required.

3. There is a lot of talk about bliss and a vague remark about facing inner demons. And note that the latter part is a very recent addition to their website. Cam's case was described as one among a thousand by Chris, which naturally means things are somewhat gonna be smooth for the rest of 999, which obviously is not the case.

4. One seminar with Max is all that's required - that would mean no help from the teacher is required. Just go through what's happening and things are going to be fine. With no pre-qual for kunlun and no post-practice support, is every individual being assumed capable of dealing with whatever comes up. And at this point, we (kunluners) are assuming that there is light at the end of this purgatory period. But there is really no consensus on the nature of this seemingly "dark" period. After all, it is max who has talked of aliens, nagas and entities and that leaves one open to a broad array of speculaion.

5. Max has been aggressively marketed as a Bodhisatva by the kunlun folks right on this forum. And Max seems to approve of such marketing by remaining silent. I guess a few impressionable friends here actually believe this statement and expect nothing less than perfection from Max or Kunlun. And the way this pair has been marketed does not help in setting expectations right either.

 

I was probably the first to talk about entities and kunlun and also the first to shut up after sensing a hostile environment. Just for a fact, in spite of what that Chris dude wrote here, Tolledo is a genuinely nice guy with his own set of convictions. Many things he said didn't seem as ridiculos as before.

 

And there is yet another intresting angle to all this. A friend who attended the SF seminar went through a lot of issues and lost her job due to chronic depression. She got help from a shaman in new Mexico and is doing fine now. I ask her to post her experiences here just for the sake of those who know not what this journey is all about, but she's reluctant and says she is scared of Max...and insists she has her reasons. Is there a need to fear Max, I don't think so, but I have heard this from three folks who just don't wanna speak up!

 

Yes, we did talk about assuming responsiblity but does 'let go' anthem of Kunlun dictate letting of every sense of control and responsibility? Is answer to every question 'walk the path' when there is really no consensus on whether the path will lead one anywhere? There is no proof of anything significant and verifiable like Taomeow would prefer other than some writings that try to sound desperately mystic and writings that turn to dots in minutes....

[11:33]

Edited May 20, 2009 by 11:33

[rain]

Thank you 11:33

 

(Could please all these paranoid ghost-diggers just chill?)

 

THe spontaneous moves that develop into natural spontaneous moves are according to my grandmaster exactly what you have learned from your Master Wong Kit; I can only second your exact words.

 

"When I do spontaneous movements - I feel cosmic energy flowing through me, sort of like a waterfall. It feels good, like being alive, but more fresh, and more vital. My body feels light and strong. I can feel energy moving within me. I can feel my heart open. I feel at peace.

 

I have a small detail to add though ..it is not so much as if energy is running inside of me..it is more as if weightlessness plays.

 

As Master Wong Kiew Kit, teacher of Shaolin Cosmos Qigong, explains it, the vigorous movements occur when the quickly moving qi runs into blockages in the chi channels. The movements are your body's natural way of opening up the blockages. As you advance in the training usually movements become much less large and flamboyant. A more advanced student might barely move at all. This is because the qi is flowing smoothly and doesn't run into any "speed bumps." "

 

Actually this was so well put that I'm going to copy paste into my own practise thread. It echoes what I've said all along.

 

Hello,

 

Clearly the other master in that report is Master Wong Kiew Kit who I am a student of. Spontaneous movement is a decent percentage of his overall teaching, but not the whole of it.

 

I don't know what to say. Those are some extraordinarily harsh things to say in such a way. Do I think my teacher has put evil ghosts into me? That seems pretty ridiculous.

 

Like someone said above, I feel these practices make my mind STRONGER, not weaker, and thus more protected from such influences...

Why has no one I've ever met ever told me this about Shaolin Cosmos Qigong? (Though I realize that the amount of other practitioners that I've met in person is limited.)

 

The matter of the safety of spontaneous qigong is one perfectly acceptable question, the ill-intent of the teacher who one claims is intentionally siphoning off students' life force is another question, don't you think???

 

When I do spontaneous movements I don't feel like there is some spirit inside me, or 10,000 black figures. I feel cosmic energy flowing through me, sort of like a waterfall. It feels good, like being alive, but more fresh, and more vital. My body feels light and strong. I can feel energy moving within me. I can feel my heart open. I feel at peace.

 

As Master Wong Kiew Kit, teacher of Shaolin Cosmos Qigong, explains it, the vigorous movements occur when the quickly moving qi runs into blockages in the chi channels. The movements are your body's natural way of opening up the blockages. As you advance in the training usually movements become much less large and flamboyant. A more advanced student might barely move at all. This is because the qi is flowing smoothly and doesn't run into any "speed bumps."

 

I am not for or against any particular practices. I'm open to learning, and if someone says they have had problems with something, I'm all ears. Of course. But this is somewhat extreme, and I thought a little perspective was in order.

 

All the Best,

11:33

Edited May 20, 2009 by rain

[minkus]

Steve Grey A.K.A. Star Jumper and his cohorts created that fake article.

Steve has been threatening to post that for a very along time now.

 

These people are not what they claim to be

 

Steve has done this to other spiritual figures in the past

 

His/their Agenda is non Taoist

 

Steve deleted all his original post from a year ago of his First Attacks to cover his ass and distance him self from others who might connect His very bad behavior with His supposed teacher Fook Yueng

 

Back then he went so far as to kill all links between His Old website and his new one to prevent being found out. Some of us already dug deep and started making phone calls and emails to confirm the validity of his associations -they were fake

Some of us saved his posts

 

there are long time members of this forum who are totally aligned

with them and feigning neutrality

 

There will be new on line names popping up that are involved

 

Steve and Co. will now play their same card as always

 

Be aware of aware of the energy behind their responses -makes you feel joy?

 

And notice that they only respond to sections of this post that they can misconstrue

 

I see him very capable of this as i read some of he's posts on he's own forum where he states he's true intent wich is pure slander. In he's own words: "let's stir up some things". I cannot understand why he does this, i really cant ... does he get a kick out of this i dont know.

 

I do know that i saw a movie that he posted on the emptyflower forum where he demonstrates he's chen taiji .. think it was laoija. If he's spiritual attainment is on the same level as he's laoija ... darn .

 

In 1 word, horrible. Pitty he deleted the account and the movie. In he's place i would do the same out of embarassment. The comments by the EF community on the video didnt lie.

 

Its this kind of people that bring alot of confusion towards new people aspiring to venture on the spiritual path wich is sad.

 

Edited further.

Edited May 20, 2009 by minkus

[rain]

I see him very capable of this as i read some of he's posts on he's own forum where he states he's true intent wich is pure slander. I cannot understand why he does this, i really cant ... does he get a kick out of this i dont know ...

 

I do know that i saw a movie that he posted on the emptyflower forum where he demonstartes he's chen taiji .. think it was laoija. If he's spiritual attainment is on the same level as he's laoija ... darn .

 

In 1 word: HORRIBLE.

 

why? insanity. madness. the world is insane. get used to it. kids are born into this madness. my heart aches.

Edited May 20, 2009 by rain