mo pai n kunlun

[Vajrasattva]

If the person who posted this question is so interested in seeing the unpleasant effects of bad practice, he could contact David Verdesi for his method for expanding the testicles to the size of melons. If he does so, please post some pictures up for everyone's amusement.

 

 

 

hahahahahaha I guess he found his BIG CHAKRA that the Tibetans lost and that the DALAI LAMA tried to find in Korea.

 

All this time it was in his NUTS.

[freeform]

I think there may be a confusion because we're mixing 'levels' when talking about these things...

 

I won't go into it too much detail - but it's generally an artificial, but useful way of looking at the level of 'abstract' vs 'specific'.... so 'Transport' is more abstract than 'Car'... and 'Wheel' is more specific yet...

 

On one level energy moves 'everywhere' - up, down, in, out, left, right, clockwise, anti-clockwise etc etc... on another level energy just is - there is no 'direction'.... It becomes problematic when you use one level of abstraction to compare with a completely different level of abstraction...

 

In my experience - the spontaneous practice moves energy in every which way... normally what happens is it heats up in my lower back, moves into my belly, then moves up to my heart - at this point it does different things - but there's certainly an 'awakening' - and a 'moving upwards'.

 

RP on the other hand opens up certain head centres and awakens the almost liquid 'kundalini' that resides there. this then flows downwards - from the head to the belly and feet. Sometimes there is an Alchemical mixing in the heart area...

 

Now - this is on just one level - looking at it from another level, it's all just vibration... on another level the microcosm is reflected in the macrocosm - so in the head the entire body is 'reflected' energy activating in one part of the head, in turn activates the energy in the belly. Looking from yet another level there's figure 8's.... another level it's spirals...

 

Now with all these experiences - if someone says 'oh kunlun is a downwards flowing method' it becomes confusing - but if you tune in on the same level of abstraction it all makes sense...

 

For me, personally, my 'conductor and capacitor' metaphor bears a little more fruit - for me it covers several levels including the 'upwards - downwards' and 'nothing - something' ideas (which, thanks to 5E-Tao have illuminated a whole lot of light bulbs for me).

 

 

 

Moving to a completely different level of abstraction - just remember that 'thought' is there for entertainment not for 'truth'. if you pick up a coin and look at only one side and say "I've found the truth", that will just constrict and limit you... if you look at one side than the other and say "ohhh - thaaat's the truth" then you're still limiting yourself...

 

or you could take the coin look at it from all different angles, in all different light conditions and all of it's influences and all of the influences on it and go "wow - that's cool" not only do I find this much more nourishing, but also more entertaining!

[Creation]

Freeform,

Great points. As you posted while I was composing this, there is some overlap that I do not wish to remove.

 

 

Fellow Taobums,

 

I apologize if the following rant comes off as mental masturbation. Maybe it is, but I perceive people are not exactly on one another's wavelengths and perhaps some of what I have to say could prevent people from talking past each other so much. People have been going around about this for a long time and I would like to see some resolution. After contemplating these upward and downward flow debates, I have come to make the following distinction. It is based on my limited theoretical knowledge and even more limited practical experience, so perhaps discussion will help reveal just how valid a distinction it is. So, to those with alchemical experience (especially key players in these discussions like Santiago and fiveelementtao), I would very much like to know if this idea matches you experience:

 

Alchemical Flow vs. Chi Flow.

 

Chi Flow: Chi can flow from anywhere to anywhere else, no problem. It might be obstructed somehow, but there is no law that says it can't flow in any particular way. So a basic thing you want to do in chi gong is to clear out all the channels and have an appropriately strong and unobstructed chi flow throughout the body. You can then draw in and project out chi from/to any place in any direction.

 

Alchemical Flow: On the other hand, there are specific processes of transformation of the human body like jing to chi, chi to shen, kan and li, and kundalini arousal. Things that just GO when certain conditions are met. They seem to have specific sources within a persons physical/etheric anatomy, go in a specific direction, and deal with certain "frequencies" of energy (c.f. Oscar Hsu saying Kundalini and Kunlun are different frequencies of energy in the central channel). I call this the alchemical flow of the process. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when jing to chi, lesser kan and li, or kundalini arousal occur it is unambiguously a transformation/transmutation of potential stored at the lower centers which flows up and causes transformation at the higher centers (and everything in between)? I.e. not just a flow of garden variety chi? There are a couple of issues here.

1. You can have some kundalini or some sublimation of sexual energy without the whole process occurring. But there should be an unambiguous leap when the whole thing happens (in that sense, like Glenn Morris said, there is no partial kundalini awakening).

2. When the transmutation occurs, it can flow incorrectly (c.f. Gopi Krishna's account of the kundalini going up the governing vessel instead of the thrusting vessel). Yikes !

3. When said process is finished, there will be changes in the physical/etheric anatomy (something like rewiring), increased chi, etc. which has an effect on the Chi Flow category. So Santiago talks about kundalini in every channel and every cell of your body, but this is only applies after the alchemical transformation that is the raising of the serpent up the central channel takes place. Does this sound right Santi?

 

From what I have read, kundalini arousal, kan and li, and jing to chi all have more than one stage to the process. Kundalini will come back down: downward flow originating from the crown, or something like that. This is much less documented as kundalini, but c.f. Mark Griffin's stuff, http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5508 (he tries to identify the stages of kundalini with the stages fo kan and li, which I believe goes back to Mantak Chia), and fiveelementtao's stuff in http://www.thetaobums.com/Kunlun-Yogani-t8418.html.) Kan and Li has lesser, greater and greatest. From Mantak Chias descriptions is all an upward alchemical flow, but then again who knows how much Chia really knows about it . Can anyone chime in on this point? And jing to chi is followed by chi to shen, which I have heard associated with a reverse flow (c.f. Tien Tao Chi Kung). So what fiveelementtao says about most alchemy being base to crown and then back down seems to be pretty well supported. Note that I am not (and I suspect that he is not) talking about chi flow, but alchemical flow.

 

Then you have these Maoshan guys talking about an alchemical process that begins with a downward (alchemical) flow. Weird! Incidentally, I have not heard that Jenny Lamb talks about a downward flow of Kunlun energy (though if she did doubtless it would be using different terms). Is this right? Because freeform says that Red Phoenix activates the potential in the head that the "Kunlun" spontaneous motion practice then causes to flow downward. I.e. no red phoenix no downward alchemical flow of "Kunlun energy"! Did I get that that right freeform?

 

Max said that the Kunlun and kundalini yoga are incomparable, not "kunlun energy" and kundalini. Insofar as you can believe what Max says , it makes sense in my framework because the alchemical flows, being processes, could interfere with each other, but if you only have one process going at a time, you should be alright. But here on this forum ( http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=54276 ) someone states Kunlun made them sick, and that later they speculated it was because their kundalini had been awake since they were ~12. I don't know much credence to give that though...

 

Well, that's a decent beginning. I hope this finds you all well,

Tyler

Edited April 23, 2009 by Creation

[shidoin]

I am a Mo-pai student!

 

I have used Kunlun and mo-pai together, Kind of a strange peacefull feeling but that was many month ago.

 

P.S. I don't give out Mo-Pai info so please donot contact me :}

[Ya Mu]

Agree with Santi - Energy comes in ALL directions. Never think outward or inward but multi-dimensionally.

 

There is a matter of Vibrational frequencies.

 

A very wise Teacher once told me, as I was pursuing several different paths because I wanted to "know", that "It is better to walk a long ways down a single path than a short ways down many paths."

Edited April 24, 2009 by Ya Mu

[minkus]

Im happy that there are people here like Freeform that can explain things in a clear way

 

Cheers !

 

 

Thanx Santiago for clearing that up. Ill email the Dalai Lama to let him know the chakra that was long lost from Tibet was found in David's trousers. I read you need to be atleast level 20 MoPai before you can even hold it so we better start cultivating quickly.

 

Cheers !

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 30, 2009 by mjjbecker

[markern]

hahahahahaha I guess he found his BIG CHAKRA that the Tibetans lost and that the DALAI LAMA tried to find in Korea.

 

All this time it was in his NUTS.

 

Anyone care to elaborate on this lost chakra if they know something? Sounds very interesting.

[Creation]

Edited November 17, 2009 by Creation

[markern]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=19708

 

Please keep a salt shaker nearby when reading.

 

edit: I suppose it would help if I just posted the relavent snippet

Interestingly enough, the next few paragraphs are the first recorded mention of the Korean "Miao Tong Dao" teacher.

 

Thanks a lot:)

 

And what a bunch of crap by the way

Edited November 18, 2009 by markern

[de_paradise]

I'm really glad this thread came to the same conclusions as I did, that energy is moving in all directions, coming in from energy gates on your body. Thank Freeform for his mind to note that it is one level of abstraction versus another, because this downward Kunlun flow, upward Kundalini flow idea has always gnawed on me, because the way I feel it, the energy is churning and turning and flowing in many ways.

 

The level of abstraction that has Kundalini as upward flow, I'm believe, is the phenomena of chakras opening generally from lower to upper. I guarantee you Kundalini doesnt flow upward like someone from your feet pointing a blowdryer upwards. If it were that simple! Its like saying a child has upward flowing energy because over the years he grows taller.

 

In Kunlun, there is noted, and I note often, a kind of gentle rain-like feeling, but internally I note the same-old same old energy flowing mixing combining, de-knotting, forming new nadi-ing, and in this there is no difference from any other meditation, because the body uses all these effective meditations to further its evolution and transmutation, using golden flower parlance, of a normal mundane body to create a yin body, and a yang body.

[minkus]

the energy is churning and turning and flowing in many ways.

 

Yeh true.

[Biff]

I am a Mo-pai student!

 

I have used Kunlun and mo-pai together, Kind of a strange peacefull feeling but that was many month ago.

 

P.S. I don't give out Mo-Pai info so please donot contact me :}

 

I think just about everybody knows the basic levels of Mo Pai. And that's it, just very basic stuff. The only real spectacular thing about John Chang is his commitment to training and that is where the results come from not necessarily the technique. Without acceptance from the linage you will get minimal results anyway. So, how much did Jim ask? $200? $400? lol.

 

Let me tell you the only reason he was able to do a show of telekinesis in that video (with the video cases) was because of the Yin field Pak John was running.

[NeiChuan]

He would still get beaten up by Chuck Norris

 

Too True.

 

It would cause major energy sickness. Mo Pai is a "Earth to heaven" energy. Kunlun is "heaven to Earth" This refers to how the energy flows. If you tried to mix the two, it would result in an energy "traffic jam"

 

 

Yea.. Either that.. or one of the systems would overpower the other.. OR BOTH.

 

In Internal Alchemy mixing schools isen't really advised.. Well Mo Pai anyway.. Luckily for a few people they find out just in time before there unfixable.

 

Usually you'll get alittle sick. Thats your body telling you somethings wrong.. Or You wont get sick.. Because you affected the bottom of the latter which you might not be able to undo.. The problem with that is.. If your doing both of those systems in the first place your not telling your Sifu.. Meaning he can't tell you. Also.. If you just say what your feeling hoping they'll know whats wrong, that wont help because they look for specific signs in development.. And know the wrongs of improper mo pai development.. Not Kunlun Development.

 

good luck.

 

 

Let me tell you the only reason he was able to do a show of telekinesis in that video (with the video cases) was because of the Yin field Pak John was running.

 

Im pretty sure any mo pai student would know that.. Being that to know mo pai these days you'd have to read Kostas book. What you say is true.. Althought in the book theres lots of lies.

 

Im not trying to sound harsh. Although I do "read" some tension in that text.

[Biff]

Too True.

Yea.. Either that.. or one of the systems would overpower the other.. OR BOTH.

 

 

It's surprising that you say that. You are absolutely right. The spontaneous aspect of Kunlun would consume and take over the Mo Pai for sure. If fact, it will consume any other practices if you have been accepted.

[Seth Ananda]

We as humans recieve energy from universe (heavens) coming downwards and upwards (earth) at all times but for some reason Kunlun is a mysterious downward path?! GRRRR

Second That!

 

if you cant feel this, and 'think' you know something... Do more Chi Kung

[Biff]

Second That!

 

if you cant feel this, and 'think' you know something... Do more Chi Kung

 

Actually, it's not a downward path at all. Marketing was used to reach the masses. Not many people know the real origins of the part that counts. What happened to Yang Mian anyway Seth? why did you go all Spring Forrest? I still do turtleback when I'm constipated.

[Aetherous]

Edited December 11, 2009 by Scotty

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited November 19, 2009 by winpro07

[fiveelementtao]

People are getting bent out of shape about the "downward" path of the Mao Shan. Downward means more than just the directional flow of the energy. It also refers to the mindset necessary for progress in that path.

 

It is a well accepted GENERAL fact that Kundalini is an upward flowing energy, right? So, why are so many people getting personally offended at the idea of a downward flowing energy.

What are people reacting to? Why the personal offense?

 

Take Kundalini for example. Kundalini is an upward flowing path also because it is an "Earth to Heaven to Earth" method. We all know that Kundalini rests in its dormant state in the base of the spine - The "earth" chakra. As it rises through the chakras it reaches the crown (Heaven) the final stage of kundalini is then bring it back down to the Root chakra again (Back to earth). Now, just because the general flow is upward, that does not negate the other directions that kundalini flows. Mao Shan is a Heaven to Earth to Heaven energy flow. That makes it a downward flow. So, yes it is possible to have all kinds of upward, downward sideways etc.... in that. But there is more the entire purpose and meaning of the phrase "Downward flow..."

 

What I have just described is a well accepted understanding of Kundalini. If this is so readily accepted, why do people get so personally bent out of shape when they hear of another type of energy that is Downward? Seriously, I don't get why people get upset. Unless "downward" strikes people as trying to be superior. It isn't. It is just a different path to the same destination... But a different path, nonetheless....

 

But there is more to it than just the directional flow. Heaven to Earth to Heaven nas multiple meanings on multiple levels. It isn't just about the linear flow of the energy. I could get into more details but there are those on this board that get very persnickety about the idea that there may not be a "one size fits all" energy out there... So, I won't waste my energy trying to explain something that has to be experienced.

 

In terms of experience, I have experienced both types of energy and there IS a difference.

 

For those who haven't experienced it and still feel they can make judgements... Well, you know where I'm going...

Edited November 19, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[minkus]

Dont mix kunlun and mopai ! Demons and wrathful deity's will pop out of your ass and will start a worldwide destruction cycle !

 

Yust kidding hehe, i dont really care in wich direction any practice flows, its yust a naming thing.

 

Yust be carefull not to mix to many practices or ask your teacher first. If you dont have a teacher then youre probably not doing neikung in the first place

 

Ask yourself is my current practice good ? if yes then there is no need to blend.

 

Regards, M

Edited November 19, 2009 by minkus