Dan Tiens -- real or imaginary?

[dwai]

You can feel the Chi in your dan tiens after even a short period of serious cultivation. Why would someone who does real cultivation be inclined to think that Dan Tiens don't exist?

Is that indicative of the lack of proper training on their part or is it that the majority of practitioners who actually work with Dan tiens actively all the time delusional?

[Dreamingawake]

You can feel the Chi in your dan tiens after even a short period of serious cultivation. Why would someone who does real cultivation be inclined to think that Dan Tiens don't exist?

Is that indicative of the lack of proper training on their part or is it that the majority of practitioners who actually work with Dan tiens actively all the time delusional?

 

****** So here's my disclaimer. While writing this it occurred to me that this particular post may actually step on a lot of people's toes. I don't intend to hurt anyone's feelings or start any arguments. This is just what I have been taught and it has borne itself out in my own experience. That being said, I'm probably not gonna feel too bad about it either so if anyone wants to lob a grenade my way I wont take it personally ******

 

I have been taught that the answer is both. It has to be created. Most people who think they have a dantien are just delusional. The place where it would be is a 'junction' of sorts and its not hard to get sensation there. Hell it usually feels like a pretty solid lump there anytime I concentrate on the area. Sometimes it even burns but that doesn't mean I have a DanTien. Saying everybody has a DT is like saying everybody has Yang Shen or Golden Dragon Body or Kundalini or whatever else.

 

The DT is not some magic source of infinite energy that your born with, it's a specific achievement/stage in specific schools. The term seems to get thrown around A LOT though and it seems that other schools/methods have appropriated the name to refer to phenomena that may seem similar but is in reality completely different. (i.e. 'i feel energy collecting below my naval and it feels solid and full. yay! I have filled my DT ')

 

The bottom line is that sensation IS NOT achievement. Sensation is sensation. People can make all kinds of claims and even sincerely believe themselves because of vivid experiences but that doesn't make it real. Creating the DT is a big deal. Your not just gonna do two or three weeks of meditation and '!poof!' you have a full DT.

[Fire Dragon]

I personaly just feel energy in the tan-tien and have not developed anything as far as I know.

 

But I think of this as a question of how you define things. I see it as working on layers. First you are not aware of anything special with the tan-tien then you can feel some energy there and later much energy there. You feel it as the center of your energy field. Perhaps when working further the tan-tien gets another more important role in the alchemical process and have special abilities to do sertain work, you have then opened up to another layer.

 

As with the microcosmic orbit. You might be able to circulate energy there. You might be able to take up you Jing wich is a part of your kundalini power. You migth be able to take up more of you kundalinin power and you might be able to take up all or a big part of your kundalini power. You might be able to circulate the light in the mco and so on. It is still the microcosmic orbit but you can open it up to higher and highter experiences.

 

So if we say we have a tan-tien it is true for all if we just mean the imporance of that energy center in the body. If we on the other hand define the tan-tien as the exlixir field with special capabilities then it has to be opened up or developed to a certain degree before we can name it the tan-tien.

 

I think we can call it the tan-tien without meaning that it should be opened up or developed to a sertein level. Becase if we put a extreme demand on it we have to call it for something else when it not is developed. According to me it is better to always call it the tan-tien and then specify how developed it is. Or to emphasis the development with another name like the functioning dan-tien, when it is opened up and realy function as the elixir field.

 

 

 

F D

[Taomeow]

Think of it this way... Your ability to read -- is it real or imaginary?

 

Where's the organ of reading? The energy of reading? The metabolism of transformation of lifeless black lines and curves on a page into meaningful live thoughts, capable of showing you real-life events and objects and the imaginary ones too and what-not? And, hmm... the eye-mouth connection that makes it possible to read aloud -- where is it, what is it made of? Could one see this organ of eye-mouth interaction upon dissecting the reader's dead body?

 

Dantiens are a lot like that. We are full of "stuff" that is like that. TCM knows what to do with this elusive "stuff.' It looks at things like "organ-system-function" phenomena. A function may be the cause or the effect or the concurrent action of many organs and systems -- reading is one such function, using a dantien, another. There's thousands more, both actualized (some) and potential (most). So are they "real?" or "imaginary?" Can't be one without the other. You have to imagine that the letter A will represent the sound A and the letter M, the sound M before you can create the organ-system-function interface that will produce "MA" out of 7 straight lines going up-down and diagonally and across. Then you can double them up and read your first word -- "mama." There's no mama in those lines, really -- and yet there is, if she sends you a postcard and signs it with these lines, she'll have sent you her presence. Real or imaginary?..

[goldisheavy]

You can feel the Chi in your dan tiens after even a short period of serious cultivation. Why would someone who does real cultivation be inclined to think that Dan Tiens don't exist?

Is that indicative of the lack of proper training on their part or is it that the majority of practitioners who actually work with Dan tiens actively all the time delusional?

 

So it's really going to throw you for a loop if your assumption -- that the true state of affairs can be categorized simply and conveniently as either real/existing or non-existent/delusional -- is false, eh?

 

This is just a hint. Maybe you can use it in your contemplation. It's not the answer.

[dwai]

So it's really going to throw you for a loop if your assumption -- that the true state of affairs can be categorized simply and conveniently as either real/existing or non-existent/delusional -- is false, eh?

 

This is just a hint. Maybe you can use it in your contemplation. It's not the answer.

 

Hmm...everything that we call "Reality" in this material universe exists because of two things. Cognition and Perception. Classical Indian Philosophy calls it Nama Rupa (Name and Form). Every categorical framework, based on which claims about the reality of things (or so-called unreality of things) is derived from these two primary pillars of perception and conception.

 

Just because certain subjects cannot perceive or conceive of (one or the other or both), doesn't negate the reality of the phenomenon.

 

[Davgong]

Hmm...everything that we call "Reality" in this material universe exists because of two things. Cognition and Perception. Classical Indian Philosophy calls it Nama Rupa (Name and Form). Every categorical framework, based on which claims about the reality of things (or so-called unreality of things) is derived from these two primary pillars of perception and conception.

 

Just because certain subjects cannot perceive or conceive of (one or the other or both), doesn't negate the reality of the phenomenon.

 

Hi all

 

you know sometimes you all read to much into things. That area just happens to be very condusive to storing energy and if you stay still and upright for a while the energy will sit at the centre of you body which is of course your dantian at that time. if you go quickly over a hump back bridge then every one and his dog will feel that sensation of the energy centre moving up and down. Why ya all gettin mistical on me man.

 

Love

Davgong

[goldisheavy]

Hmm...everything that we call "Reality" in this material universe exists because of two things. Cognition and Perception. Classical Indian Philosophy calls it Nama Rupa (Name and Form). Every categorical framework, based on which claims about the reality of things (or so-called unreality of things) is derived from these two primary pillars of perception and conception.

 

Just because certain subjects cannot perceive or conceive of (one or the other or both), doesn't negate the reality of the phenomenon.

 

 

I don't exactly disagree with this. I would say that cognition and perception are ultimately inseparable. In other words, it's one process. or one functioning and not two different ones. The mental image of "two pillars" gives the wrong impression I think. It's more like one pillar with two sides and the two sides are purely imaginary for the purpose of discussion.

 

It's impossible to perceive anything without having some kind of belief (a.k.a. mindset, inner context, etc.).

 

Things can transcend real/not-real designation. For example on Tuesday Dan Tien can be real, but on Wednesday it might be unreal. Mind has the capacity for that kind of adaptability. Dan Tien doesn't have to be firmly committed into the "real" category or into the "not-real" category. It can shift in and out and it can be fuzzy (opposite of well-defined). A fuzzy perception can resolve into clarity. Clarity can resolve back into fuzziness. It's a dynamic and wide open process. Nothing has to be anything, but anything can be anything for a time. When we say "for a time", this time can be arbitrarily long, but never infinite.

[dwai]

I don't exactly disagree with this. I would say that cognition and perception are ultimately inseparable. In other words, it's one process. or one functioning and not two different ones. The mental image of "two pillars" gives the wrong impression I think. It's more like one pillar with two sides and the two sides are purely imaginary for the purpose of discussion.

 

It's impossible to perceive anything without having some kind of belief (a.k.a. mindset, inner context, etc.).

 

Things can transcend real/not-real designation. For example on Tuesday Dan Tien can be real, but on Wednesday it might be unreal. Mind has the capacity for that kind of adaptability. Dan Tien doesn't have to be firmly committed into the "real" category or into the "not-real" category. It can shift in and out and it can be fuzzy (opposite of well-defined). A fuzzy perception can resolve into clarity. Clarity can resolve back into fuzziness. It's a dynamic and wide open process. Nothing has to be anything, but anything can be anything for a time. When we say "for a time", this time can be arbitrarily long, but never infinite.

 

Precisely what I was getting at dear Goldisheavy! Depending on the "thing", it can be either conformant with Name and Form (Conception and Perception), or only Name or only Form or neither name nor form. See the discussion on the Non Duality thread to get a better feel of what I am trying to say here. Certain things have to be "felt" as opposed to categorically qualified via name and form. Dan Tiens, Chi, Shen, Tao are fall in various degrees on the a road from "With Name and Form", travelling through "No Name only Form" or "Only form no name" to "No name and no form".

 

I hope I was able to articulate what I'm trying to say here successfully...

 

To be more precise, the ephemeral state of the Dan Tien doesn't negate it's existence. It merely implies that it might not fall into the category of "both perceivable and conceivable" or be able to be discerned via a mechanism that employs such a framework.

Edited April 17, 2009 by dwai

[goldisheavy]

Precisely what I was getting at dear Goldisheavy! Depending on the "thing", it can be either conformant with Name and Form (Conception and Perception), or only Name or only Form or neither name nor form. See the discussion on the Non Duality thread to get a better feel of what I am trying to say here. Certain things have to be "felt" as opposed to categorically qualified via name and form. Dan Tiens, Chi, Shen, Tao are fall in various degrees on the a road from "With Name and Form", travelling through "No Name only Form" or "Only form no name" to "No name and no form".

 

I hope I was able to articulate what I'm trying to say here successfully...

 

To be more precise, the ephemeral state of the Dan Tien doesn't negate it's existence. It merely implies that it might not fall into the category of "both perceivable and conceivable" or be able to be discerned via a mechanism that employs such a framework.

 

I think we agree. Dan Tien can be as real as a computer or a chair or anything else considered to be conventionally real beyond question. Dan Tien can even become conventionally real and not just personally real. It depends on the culture and how it grows.

 

At the same time, something everyone thinks is real, like say an arm, can dissolve into something that's almost unreal. This happens when people report certain meditator's bodies having no shadows or similar phenomena. What happens in that case is that the body, as it becomes more internalized, withdraws from convention, and loses its definite reality, and so it might retain, a "somewhat real" sense about it, and the mind adopts to it by projecting the body as something you can see but not feel or something like that. The mind is imaginative, so it can manifest this idea in more than one way. It doesn't have to be a "system" at all.

 

But in either case, nothing becomes permanently stuck. I like to think that form is like a play putty that is malleable, but then if you freeze it or bake it, it can harden and be somewhat long-lasting. But then you can also thaw it back up and remold it again. Or you can let things mold themselves however they please and just watch, like if you are tired of playing around and want to rest.

 

That said, I like to point out that where we are, we have a unique blessing. We are exposed to multiple traditions all at once, and it would be a shame to merely just pick one tradition and stick with it. It's one thing if some Eskimo child is born in a tribe and can't learn anything besides the Eskimo culture. But it's another thing to be born in the West, and to have access to so much diversity, and then to ignore all that diversity and to "pick" one system or one culture an to stick with it.

 

I think one does have to stick with something, but that something should be your effort, your resolve, rather than something external like a system or a foreign culture. In that sense, Dan Tien is just one option available. There is also, for example, the idea of an assemblage point. Why not investigate that? Assemblage point talks how there are parallel realities and how we tune into this or that world by fixing our assemblage point in a certain location. See how different of a concept this is from Dan Tien, which never shifts location (unless you make a woopsie-daizy), and which serves only for accumulation purpose? Don't we accumulate enough already? I don't really want to knock on Dan Tien, but I do think that we are sort of like stewards of many many traditions and not just one. It's our blessing and our curse.

[dwai]

I think we agree. Dan Tien can be as real as a computer or a chair or anything else considered to be conventionally real beyond question. Dan Tien can even become conventionally real and not just personally real. It depends on the culture and how it grows.

 

At the same time, something everyone thinks is real, like say an arm, can dissolve into something that's almost unreal. This happens when people report certain meditator's bodies having no shadows or similar phenomena. What happens in that case is that the body, as it becomes more internalized, withdraws from convention, and loses its definite reality, and so it might retain, a "somewhat real" sense about it, and the mind adopts to it by projecting the body as something you can see but not feel or something like that. The mind is imaginative, so it can manifest this idea in more than one way. It doesn't have to be a "system" at all.

 

But in either case, nothing becomes permanently stuck. I like to think that form is like a play putty that is malleable, but then if you freeze it or bake it, it can harden and be somewhat long-lasting. But then you can also thaw it back up and remold it again. Or you can let things mold themselves however they please and just watch, like if you are tired of playing around and want to rest.

 

That said, I like to point out that where we are, we have a unique blessing. We are exposed to multiple traditions all at once, and it would be a shame to merely just pick one tradition and stick with it. It's one thing if some Eskimo child is born in a tribe and can't learn anything besides the Eskimo culture. But it's another thing to be born in the West, and to have access to so much diversity, and then to ignore all that diversity and to "pick" one system or one culture an to stick with it.

 

I think one does have to stick with something, but that something should be your effort, your resolve, rather than something external like a system or a foreign culture. In that sense, Dan Tien is just one option available. There is also, for example, the idea of an assemblage point. Why not investigate that? Assemblage point talks how there are parallel realities and how we tune into this or that world by fixing our assemblage point in a certain location. See how different of a concept this is from Dan Tien, which never shifts location (unless you make a woopsie-daizy), and which serves only for accumulation purpose? Don't we accumulate enough already? I don't really want to knock on Dan Tien, but I do think that we are sort of like stewards of many many traditions and not just one. It's our blessing and our curse.

 

Indeed...that still doesn't make Dan Tien unreal. Whether you choose to practice a system that uses Dan Tiens or not, they still exist. As do the meridians, the chakras and Chi and Jing and Shen. If you follow a system that works on those levels, you will feel them and control them (or be controlled by them).

 

If someone wants to work with Don Juan's assemblage point, all power to them. Incidentally I find almost a one-to-one parallel between Vedantic and Yogic teachings, Taoism and Nagualism (as presented by Carlos Castaneda).

 

See how different of a concept this is from Dan Tien, which never shifts location (unless you make a woopsie-daizy), and which serves only for accumulation purpose? Don't we accumulate enough already? I don't really want to knock on Dan Tien, but I do think that we are sort of like stewards of many many traditions and not just one. It's our blessing and our curse.

 

I had missed this part. From my teacher's perspective and mine via experience, Dan Tiens keep shifting. The position is not static per se, it is usually localized to a certain region. Everyone doesn't have the lower dan tien x-fingers below the navel and y-fingers deep into the body. It varies...

 

Also, No we don't accumulate enough. In fact we are constantly spending the natural reserve that we have. Cultivation is done so we can replenish what we have spent first, then stock up and use that to start fueling our Spiritual activities.

Edited April 19, 2009 by dwai

[Trash Filter]

The dantien is real enough. Just we have so much negative control on this planet that science nor mainstream knowledge has any inkling of it existing or any of its function. Reason being, if we had any comprehension of what we really are, there would not be any need of this mess we are all in.

It's pessimistic, but the truth. Spread the word, and put pressure on getting such things out in the spotlight.

[froggie]

i understand what you are saying,

if you can feel energy there it doesn't mean that all of a sudden it's full,

maybe it does mean that an empty vessel of sorts is there though.

 

my question about an established dan tien would be, and perhaps in specific about the mo pai method,

is once it is filled, are the benefits there to stay or if one stops the building practise will it go empty again just as well?

 

hope to hear your opinions or experience.

 

 

****** So here's my disclaimer. While writing this it occurred to me that this particular post may actually step on a lot of people's toes. I don't intend to hurt anyone's feelings or start any arguments. This is just what I have been taught and it has borne itself out in my own experience. That being said, I'm probably not gonna feel too bad about it either so if anyone wants to lob a grenade my way I wont take it personally ******

 

I have been taught that the answer is both. It has to be created. Most people who think they have a dantien are just delusional. The place where it would be is a 'junction' of sorts and its not hard to get sensation there. Hell it usually feels like a pretty solid lump there anytime I concentrate on the area. Sometimes it even burns but that doesn't mean I have a DanTien. Saying everybody has a DT is like saying everybody has Yang Shen or Golden Dragon Body or Kundalini or whatever else.

 

The DT is not some magic source of infinite energy that your born with, it's a specific achievement/stage in specific schools. The term seems to get thrown around A LOT though and it seems that other schools/methods have appropriated the name to refer to phenomena that may seem similar but is in reality completely different. (i.e. 'i feel energy collecting below my naval and it feels solid and full. yay! I have filled my DT ')

 

The bottom line is that sensation IS NOT achievement. Sensation is sensation. People can make all kinds of claims and even sincerely believe themselves because of vivid experiences but that doesn't make it real. Creating the DT is a big deal. Your not just gonna do two or three weeks of meditation and '!poof!' you have a full DT.

Edited April 24, 2009 by froggie

[kathyli]