Franz Bardon IIH: Results?

[SimoninTaiwan]

Has any one worked through Franz Bardons Initiation Into Hermetics?

 

If so what have been your results?

 

Thanks

 

Simon

[Yoda]

Neutralwire and Thelerner are the two Bardonists around here. I haven't seen Newt here in awhile, so you might pm them. Part of the system is to never, ever talk about results...

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Apech]

Neutralwire doesn't post here anymore unfortunately.

[Sunya]

what's your goal Simonin

 

what are you looking for

[Sloppy Zhang]

I started on step 1 just recently. Will be working on step two maybe in a week or two (I've got a lot of stuff going on in life right now, so I'm just practicing what I can). I think it's kind of neat, I read ahead, not to practice, but to get a general idea, and it seems like a very interesting system worth at least a try.

[elcaminante]

I started on step 1 just recently. Will be working on step two maybe in a week or two (I've got a lot of stuff going on in life right now, so I'm just practicing what I can). I think it's kind of neat, I read ahead, not to practice, but to get a general idea, and it seems like a very interesting system worth at least a try.

 

me too. I have started a few weeks ago. However after years of practicing maditation on a daily basis I found the first step challenging enough to spend a couple of months on it.

 

The aim of being able to focus on one thought for 10 minutes or more is very hard to accomplish, so I try not to push my trainning very much and to be pacient with myself.

 

On the other hand and after some years of experience and practice with different disciplines, it seems to me one of the most practical and effective Western method to develop oneself.

Edited April 20, 2009 by elcaminante

[SimoninTaiwan]

Hi wellI have always been a bit wary of this kind of stuff as liberation as described in the Dharma is what I see as the ultimate goal but also that the Tibetan approches are also something of a toolbox of methods and wondered whether Bardons approach can take you the same way.

 

I like his details and his specific methods to get clear results.

 

I wanted to know if people had managed to stick to IIH instructions and if so what there opinion of the process is, my one concern was about the dangers of getting lost in power and manipulation of forces as to transcend these is the goal.

 

Simon

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hi wellI have always been a bit wary of this kind of stuff as liberation as described in the Dharma is what I see as the ultimate goal but also that the Tibetan approches are also something of a toolbox of methods and wondered whether Bardons approach can take you the same way.

 

I like his details and his specific methods to get clear results.

 

I wanted to know if people had managed to stick to IIH instructions and if so what there opinion of the process is, my one concern was about the dangers of getting lost in power and manipulation of forces as to transcend these is the goal.

 

Simon

 

Well from what I can tell, liberation/unification with higher consciousness/whatever is also the goal of Bardon's system. He just takes you slowly from where most people are now (totally unaware of what's going on in their body and in their minds), and takes them up gradually, so they cultivate certain things, before they are finally able to reach that point.

 

There are certainly ways in which you can get sidetracked, "get lost in power" as many would say. Bardon (and Rawn Clark, who also provides some good commentaries) says that there are natural safeguards in the system, that people with certain intents will only reach a certain point. Don't know if it always works out that way or not.

 

There are plenty of other systems that discourage getting involved in any type of things that could get you "lost in power". That's certainly one approach, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. It just depends. Do you want to stop and "smell the flowers" even though you know perfectly well that the flowers aren't REALLY there, and the flowers could actually get you lost and off the path, and that if you want to get to where you want to go you have to give up the flowers eventually, or do you just want to run straight past the flowers through to the other side while ignoring all the beauty and what you might find there?

 

You could make another metaphor like, you are driving at a high speed down the highway, do you want to stop and look at a billboard for Hooters, knowing perfectly well that it's just a sign, and risk a high speed collision?

 

Anyone can come up with any number of metaphors to make whatever their path is sound the best. It's up to you really.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[SimoninTaiwan]

Well from what I can tell, liberation/unification with higher consciousness/whatever is also the goal of Bardon's system. He just takes you slowly from where most people are now (totally unaware of what's going on in their body and in their minds), and takes them up gradually, so they cultivate certain things, before they are finally able to reach that point.

 

There are certainly ways in which you can get sidetracked, "get lost in power" as many would say. Bardon (and Rawn Clark, who also provides some good commentaries) says that there are natural safeguards in the system, that people with certain intents will only reach a certain point. Don't know if it always works out that way or not.

 

There are plenty of other systems that discourage getting involved in any type of things that could get you "lost in power". That's certainly one approach, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. It just depends. Do you want to stop and "smell the flowers" even though you know perfectly well that the flowers aren't REALLY there, and the flowers could actually get you lost and off the path, and that if you want to get to where you want to go you have to give up the flowers eventually, or do you just want to run straight past the flowers through to the other side while ignoring all the beauty and what you might find there?

 

You could make another metaphor like, you are driving at a high speed down the highway, do you want to stop and look at a billboard for Hooters, knowing perfectly well that it's just a sign, and risk a high speed collision?

 

Anyone can come up with any number of metaphors to make whatever their path is sound the best. It's up to you really.

 

Thanks for that, its a great description.

[goldisheavy]

Not only do you not have to give up the flowers, but in fact, you cannot. Empty cognizance is the nature of mind and you cannot dismiss it or practice it away. You can change the smell and shape of flowers but you cannot change the fact that there are flowers. Many people have written at length about it, in Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, Mahayana, etc... no need to repeat.

[bakeneko]

Hi wellI have always been a bit wary of this kind of stuff as liberation as described in the Dharma is what I see as the ultimate goal but also that the Tibetan approches are also something of a toolbox of methods and wondered whether Bardons approach can take you the same way.

 

Actually, it can.

 

 

I like his details and his specific methods to get clear results.

 

I am not really aware about how good or bad the English translation is, but I know a lot of people do not find the German text very precise. But I think, it depends on the reader...if one is in a way ready for it...or if it is the "right system". Maybe this sounds strange.

 

I wanted to know if people had managed to stick to IIH instructions and if so what there opinion of the process is, my one concern was about the dangers of getting lost in power and manipulation of forces as to transcend these is the goal.

 

I am still working my way up and am/ was doing most of the practical stuff I was able to do so far...and some more. Part of both the good *and* bad with Bardon is that he leaves A LOT to be discovered. And there are many more possibilities than one thinks about at first.

I am still working my way up, but am also in contact with people who are rather high...and one person who claims to have finished step 10, but I am for some reasons a bit sceptical about this.

Anyway: One CAN be tempted about abusing gained power in this system...and one CAN abuse said power.

This will cause suffering and stop ones "growth", but it could happen. IMO something to keep ones eyes open about - it is ALL about the practicioner.

 

I wish you all the best on your way.

[elcaminante]

[jaloo]

I think the greatest aspect of step 1 is the construction of the psychic mirrors. This practice alone can take months and is something I go back to and revise on a regular basis.

 

The results have been and continue to be profound for me.

[Sunya]

Hi wellI have always been a bit wary of this kind of stuff as liberation as described in the Dharma is what I see as the ultimate goal but also that the Tibetan approches are also something of a toolbox of methods and wondered whether Bardons approach can take you the same way.

 

 

 

If Dharma is your goal why seek anywhere else?

 

IMO, the goals are different for a Magician and someone on the path of Dharma.

 

the Tibetans have many methods but the view is always the Buddhist view, which is of emptiness. in Vajrayana any Diety is always taught to be a representation of your true nature, never self existing. in Hermetics is the same taught? i'm not sure. maybe. But I read about Step 10 and it sounds like a 'Union' type experience, not what realization is about, so choose your goal and go for it. Method isn't everything, View is more important.

[bakeneko]

After doing a little reseach I have found that Bardon seems not to be a truly Initiated. Instead, his teachings come from different sources:

 

Why, does this mean he "seems not to be a truly initiated"? His most important and actually traceable source would be rather Wilhelm Quintscher than anyone else who you mentioned. And Quintschers son claimed, that the young Bardon was able of several phenomena when he first met Quintscher (other reports are also there, but that was done by the older Bardon).

All the things taken from Randolph for example are more likely from Quintscher than from any writing by Randolph.

Bardon and Lomer were for some time member of the same circle in Prague... hence the 2 slightly different versions of Lomers hermetic letters, which were either translated by Bardon for his students or his own version.

Brandler-Prachts system seems rather inferior to me, relying too much on "oriental ideas" like a strict diet and absolute negation of sex.

I can not comment on the other sources you mentioned as I never studied them in any way.

But in the end:

 

Apparently, Bardon just put all those methods together in order to offer a practical system to his students. But if those are not his teachings and he does not give all the info, what results should I expect?

 

This is all up to you... you will discover something along the way, I am sure.

It worked for me and for others. So maybe it will work for you too.

 

Cheers,

Sebastian

[Sunya]

 

This is all up to you... you will discover something along the way, I am sure.

It worked for me and for others. So maybe it will work for you too.

 

 

the question is what 'worked' and if this is inline with your actual goal

[elcaminante]

Edited April 26, 2009 by elcaminante

[bakeneko]

Edited April 26, 2009 by bakeneko

[SimoninTaiwan]

Thanks everyone for your input on this subject I have found alot of useful points to look more into and have also found some well developed Bardon people who really do answer my questions and give me confidence in this system.

A whole system in clear (depending on your opinion of his style) English.

 

Simon

[Sloppy Zhang]

Edited April 27, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[bakeneko]

[Jedi777]

[thelerner]

As is evident from his own life, giving written credit to people might expose them to arrest and worse. Its too bad so much of his life and contemporaries are mysterious.

 

 

The higher level people I've seen in Bardon system (admitted few) have been open and friendly and even keeled. I've been thinking its a side affect for those who delve into it long and deeply enough.

 

 

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

As is evident from his own life, giving written credit to people might expose them to arrest and worse. Its too bad so much of his life and contemporaries are mysterious.

The higher level people I've seen in Bardon system (admitted few) have been open and friendly and even keeled. I've been thinking its a side affect for those who delve into it long and deeply enough.

Michael

 

 

This strikes me as pertinent to another recent thread from Kate- where in she described herself as on an even keel when she could have flipped out. It seems that any and all systems that have us meditating, working on our breathing or just being introspective will tender good results. -There actually seems to be an universal good result from any variety amongst so many paths and name-brands of seeking that we may find here, when these basics are used. Its almost a sort of golden rule for internal cultivation. Would Bardons' system fall into that over-generalization as well?

 

That any way can be castigated officially seems narrow minded - but then naziism may be an exception to that rule...the politics of philosophy is a tricky biz...

[goldisheavy]

If Dharma is your goal why seek anywhere else?

 

The word "Dharma" just means "the truth of things as they are" or "the true way things are", etc.

 

It refers to insight and realization in the widest, most general and most abstract way possible. For example, Hinduist traditions use the word "Dharma" as well as the Buddhist ones. That's because "Dharma" is a generic word. It's not some secret club that you join and become a card carrying member of.

 

So I think it becomes obvious why in order to know Dharma you have to have wide experience, and then it is obvious why if having wide experience is useful, it's good to practice diverse methods, at least some time. To have a broad perspective, to have much experience that's not all the same thing, all of that is a good thing that enriches one's own being and therefore one's own insight and realization.

 

IMO, the goals are different for a Magician and someone on the path of Dharma.

 

Not really. I started with the goal of becoming the greatest magician ever. This goal has lead me to Buddha Dharma (among other types of Dharma) because I have recognized Buddha as one of the greatest magicians to have ever been written about.

 

If you reflect for a second on what it takes to perform magic, then you'll see that nothing less than perfect enlightenment will suffice.

Edited April 28, 2009 by goldisheavy