Why Are Western Daoists so Gullible?

[Zensunni Wanderer]

Daoism has often been ahead of its time. The Taiping Jing, at a time when much of humanity still believed in supernatural qualities influencing human behavior, boldly set out the claim that we're influenced by social and economic factors, claims we now see more and more to be true. The true reality school taught students to avoid superstitious speculation. Laozi warned people to beware reliance on ritual and tradition. And now? It seems like western Daoists (and often Buddhists) are often the ones who often want to bring everything back to sorcery and ghosts and arcane secrets and metaphysical nonsense. what gives?

[Taomeow]

Daoism has often been ahead of its time. The Taiping Jing, at a time when much of humanity still believed in supernatural qualities influencing human behavior, boldly set out the claim that we're influenced by social and economic factors, claims we now see more and more to be true. The true reality school taught students to avoid superstitious speculation. Laozi warned people to beware reliance on ritual and tradition. And now? It seems like western Daoists (and often Buddhists) are often the ones who often want to bring everything back to sorcery and ghosts and arcane secrets and metaphysical nonsense. what gives?

Taoism predates Laozi et al by thousands of years. Shamanism, from which it directly originates and smoothly flows, has dealt in metaphysical sense, not metaphysical nonsense, for tens of thousands of years at least, and according to some researchers, hundreds of thousands.

 

Western civilization meticulously conquered and destroyed all shamanic cultures it could find on the face of the earth and, in the process of doing so, came up with many theoretical justifications for doing so. It denied these cultures any value precisely in justification of the pillage and plunder and theft and genocide unleashed upon them. The aggressor has always justified his aggression by belittling and ridiculing his victim and negating everything the latter stands for. You've been taught to do this from the get-go by any and all sources made available to you by the winning aggressor. Me too. But I woke up. Some of the other "gullible Westerners," ditto.

 

Hope this answers your question.

[Squatting Monkey]

Back to basics, practical, no nonsense teachings are what people will come back to after their failure in esoterica.

[trailmaker]

Back to basics, practical, no nonsense teachings are what people will come back to after their failure in esoterica.

 

 

really enjoyable exchange.

 

sounded like a very familiar internal dialog.

 

you know, when talking to yourself is fun?

[Squatting Monkey]

I always enjoy a cup of hot green tea.

[trailmaker]

I always enjoy a cup of hot green tea.

 

 

am oolong, pm green here, but anyway tea is good for thinkin'.

[Owledge]

"no nonsense" ... The problem with this word is that it's highly variable.

Things of the future might be called nonsense, when they come to the present, they become facts, and in the past they become nonsense again.

[Zensunni Wanderer]

Taomeow

 

What is this "western Civilization" you speak of? Why were there rationalist thinkers in philosophers in Ancient Asia if rationalism is just bunk? How does any of this make people debating online about the correct way to perform a home exorcism less crazy?

 

Glad you "woke up" though. Sorry I'm just a slave to the aggressor. Maybe one day I'll be as wise as you!

[Stigweard]

Daoism has often been ahead of its time. The Taiping Jing, at a time when much of humanity still believed in supernatural qualities influencing human behavior, boldly set out the claim that we're influenced by social and economic factors, claims we now see more and more to be true. The true reality school taught students to avoid superstitious speculation. Laozi warned people to beware reliance on ritual and tradition. And now? It seems like western Daoists (and often Buddhists) are often the ones who often want to bring everything back to sorcery and ghosts and arcane secrets and metaphysical nonsense. what gives?

People will believe any lie ... either because they really want to believe or because they are afraid it is true.

 

The question is ... how and where does rational thinking meet with the understanding and appreciation of the true divine nature of oneself and the universe?

 

"Back to basics, practical, no nonsense teachings" that deny communion with the spiritual essence of life are just as delusional as teachings that 'chase' superstitious phenonema.

 

[Taomeow]

Taomeow

 

What is this "western Civilization" you speak of? Why were there rationalist thinkers in philosophers in Ancient Asia if rationalism is just bunk? How does any of this make people debating online about the correct way to perform a home exorcism less crazy?

 

Glad you "woke up" though. Sorry I'm just a slave to the aggressor. Maybe one day I'll be as wise as you!

 

I'm not sure why you equate what I was talking about -- "aggression and destruction" -- with "rationalist thinkers." You like to think of Western civilization as a bunch of rationalist thinkers, while I notice something else about it -- not what it "thought," but what it actually "did" to everybody who wouldn't get in line. It's just a matter of what you're paying attention to and what you're ignoring. I don't care if the perpetrator of genocide is a rationalist thinker. What matters to me is, how come his thinking, whatever it happens to be, has resulted in genocide?.. What came first, the rationalist thinking or mass murder? Which is utilized to support which?.. or are they two sides of the same coin?.. I pay attention to questions like this one, is all. And so I get answers that might seem unexpected to someone who already has all the answers... the ones supplied by someone who is actually a mass murderer but prefers to call himself (and has taught you to call him) a "rationalist thinker."

 

I didn't say rational thinking is "just bunk." I said something different. What I did say was that your definitions of "bunk," "crazy," and "nonsense" have all been supplied by the aggressor who has destroyed all societies for which these definitions were different. So these different opinions are not available to you in any shape or form other than from a "poisoned well." It is a fact of history, not my personal opinion.

 

So you assert performing a home exorcism is crazy. And I assert you are being a "repeater" of what you've been told, is all, and what you've been told was told by the party with many ulterior motives. While a taoist performing such a ritual is not relying on hearsay, he or she is relying on the kind of sensory (sic) perceptions and mental (sic) comprehension not available to a "repeater." Wisdom has nothing to do with it; it's a matter of what you've been trained to perceive and allowed to believe. I don't claim greater wisdom, I claim greater range of perceptions resulting from "waking up," and a smaller range of "permission" in what I believe (e.g., I don't allow myself to believe anything from any institutionally co-opted source anymore. I will check them out, I will put them to a test, I will cross-examine the evidence, I will draw my conclusions to the best of my ability... but believe them?.. Nah, I'm not that gullible anymore...)

Edited April 21, 2009 by Taomeow

[WhiteTiger]

I'm not sure why you equate what I was talking about -- "aggression and destruction" -- with "rationalist thinkers." You like to think of Western civilization as a bunch of rationalist thinkers, while I notice something else about it -- not what it "thought," but what it actually "did" to everybody who wouldn't get in line. It's just a matter of what you're paying attention to and what you're ignoring. I don't care if the perpetrator of genocide is a rationalist thinker. What matters to me is, how come his thinking, whatever it happens to be, has resulted in genocide?.. What came first, the rationalist thinking or mass murder? Which is utilized to support which?.. or are they two sides of the same coin?.. I pay attention to questions like this one, is all. And so I get answers that might seem unexpected to someone who already has all the answers... the ones supplied by someone who is actually a mass murderer but prefers to call himself (and has taught you to call him) a "rationalist thinker."

 

Interesting

 

 

So you assert performing a home exorcism is crazy. And I assert you are being a "repeater" of what you've been told, is all, and what you've been told was told by the party with many ulterior motives. While a taoist performing such a ritual is not relying on hearsay, he or she is relying on the kind of sensory (sic) perceptions and mental (sic) comprehension not available to a "repeater." Wisdom has nothing to do with it; it's a matter of what you've been trained to perceive and allowed to believe. I don't claim greater wisdom, I claim greater range of perceptions resulting from "waking up," and a smaller range of "permission" in what I believe (e.g., I don't allow myself to believe anything from any institutionally co-opted source anymore. I will check them out, I will put them to a test, I will cross-examine the evidence, I will draw my conclusions to the best of my ability... but believe them?.. Nah, I'm not that gullible anymore...)

 

Issue is personally when I see your act TM, you attempt to put them to the test by attacking the people and cross-examine the evidence by attacking them.

 

Hey by any chance do you know the understanding practice or believe anything about the concept of Ming?

[Taomeow]

Interesting

Issue is personally when I see your act TM, you attempt to put them to the test by attacking the people and cross-examine the evidence by attacking them.

 

Um... no, not really. I don't attack people and despise those who do. I attack ideas. The example of attacking ideas is my above entry attacking the idea that people practicing Magical Taoism are crazy. I don't like this idea, see. I find it erroneous, and insulting to taoism and taoists who are called gullible and crazy for practicing authentic taoist practices. This kind of an attack.

 

Whereas you attack people personally -- me personally -- by accusing me of whatever it is you've been accusing me of -- unjustly, as in the above example -- in your posts and PMs over the years. I suspect the reason for your wrath is my failure, more often than not, to respond to them. I occasionally don't respond because I don't have the time or the attention span, and occasionally, because I've no interest in discussing my personal failings with anyone into this particular kind of discussion who isn't me and hasn't been invited by me to do so. I'm really sorry but that's the way it's going to be in the future too, so I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Taomeow

[宁]

Um... no, not really. I don't attack people and despise those who do. I attack ideas. The example of attacking ideas is my above entry attacking the idea that people practicing Magical Taoism are crazy. I don't like this idea, see. I find it erroneous, and insulting to taoism and taoists who are called gullible and crazy for practicing authentic taoist practices. This kind of an attack.

 

Whereas you attack people personally -- me personally -- by accusing me of whatever it is you've been accusing me of -- unjustly, as in the above example -- in your posts and PMs over the years. I suspect the reason for your wrath is my failure, more often than not, to respond to them. I occasionally don't respond because I don't have the time or the attention span, and occasionally, because I've no interest in discussing my personal failings with anyone into this particular kind of discussion who isn't me and hasn't been invited by me to do so. I'm really sorry but that's the way it's going to be in the future too, so I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

 

Sweet Bravo!

[WhiteTiger]

You attack people, Just not directly by saying there name outrightly.

 

If i were to personally point out example, I would make you look bad in public and thats not my aim. Where as you consistently make me look bad in public... because that is your aim.

 

But your definately right, its my failure, in a weak but still an attempt to bring up things that bother me about you. In turn, "in these weak and sad attempts" I find myself ending up personally attacking you. Which attacking you personally is not what i mean to do.

 

But I do it anyway, and have in the past, for that I'm gravely sorry. I'm sure no matter how sorry I am, i feel that words can not make up for any problems I've caused. Which brings me to my next point I'm working seriously and greatly very hard to fix these things from happening again.

Edited April 21, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Taomeow]

A bow to you, Little1!

 

And a meow to you, Tiger.

[Spirit Ape]

Cause the westerner wants to think they are chinese wearing the robes and B.S all image!!!

[Gerard]

Check my signature and then come back and post whether the info I give in my page is superstitious nonsense. Btw, what kind of meditative practices do you follow? And how often?

 

Regards.

[Spirit Ape]

Hi,

 

You talking to me?

 

Ape

[hagar]

Why not keep this discussion at a more nuanced and non-confrontational level.

 

Zensunni Wanderer; We are all afraid to be suckers. And we love to reveal the emperor's new clothes. Our primary concern should be to avoid becoming "Spiritual Materialists", and buy into whatever exciting esoteric practice that is being presented. But to reject the possibility that one can deflect certain energetic aspects of a situation through a practice or method, or that there is no such thing as possesion is maybe overstating the case? Are you sure that possesions do not occur, just because it constitutes being a beliver in "non-sense"? I for one do not know.

 

From some previous posts (Removing ghosts, etc) I have actually been arguing for the danger of taking the totality of ancient traditions into a modern/postmodern western reality. If we approach a practice without questioning its truth-content, things rapidly turn dogmatic. Western Daoists are probably some of the less gullible groups around, due to the fact that many trust their sensitivity more than the discourses and accepted truths in western society. If you practice qigong and other Daoist practices you will naturally see that certain things deprive you of peace of mind, energy and physical health. Things that in our society are seen as good, healthy or neutral (how westerners eat, sleep, work, consume, talk and have sex, etc.)

 

Magical Daoism has its upsides and downsides just as any technology. But the unfounded faith that in charms and talismans, or the affliction of "bad" energies, eventhough correct in many senses actually turn the attention and intention of the western practitioner away from open and healthy interaction with our environment, our partners, our friends and society. We should work at integration, into the world. Unfortunately that means becoming "soiled" and getting our hands dirty. But as we integrate our practice into everyday life, the goal should be that our Daoist-practitioner role should fade, and our natural Self should emerge.

 

When I am Daoist Anders, people are turned off by me, and my stories and good advice. When I am just Anders, people open, and we connect. This is really being a person of "Dao". If the focus is on how things, constantly and in a direct or indirect way are detrimental and should be fixed with some blessing or charm, or removed, you cannot live life in a free way. Like the Tarot reader who cannot leave the house before laying out the deck of the day.

 

Our life is about facing "negative" energies. We are going to get hurt, make mistakes, and suffer. These "energies" are there to stay. We should detect them, yet see their relative importance.

 

Did I just now come across as abit trite?

 

Atleast this post is too long.

 

h

Edited April 21, 2009 by hagar

[三江源]

We are so so so so gullible, because we love it. we love gulls, we love ibles, we love all of it.

 

and it's more fun to go for a ride and enjoy the scenery, than to blockblocksaynopoopoo.

 

Sell me some snake oil. I love it. It'll work for me because I'll believe in it.

[Owledge]

A little off topic:

 

The whole snake oil saying carries a lot of irony, because people don't know its background. There might have been many dishonest salesmen using it as a marketing strategy for selling useless products, but snake oil does work! It's nothing too fancy, just a remedy against rheumatism, arthritis and such.

 

This is a good example of how a perfectly legit thing is being denigrated.

 

BTW... "Tilting against windmills" is another example. People seem to always use it in the context of them fighting lonely against a superior enemy, which is funny, because what they - according to Don Quijote where it comes from - actually say is that their enemies are just imagined and they are delusional.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Hardyg

[Wayfarer64]

Every wind mill I have ever been near squeeked like a demon... I'll try some snake oil on the next one I find...

[goldisheavy]

Every wind mill I have ever been near squeeked like a demon... I'll try some snake oil on the next one I find...

 

Ohhh.... that's gooood!

[Taomeow]

A little off topic:

 

The whole snake oil saying carries a lot of irony, because people don't know its background. There might have been many dishonest salesmen using it as a marketing strategy for selling useless products, but snake oil does work! It's nothing too fancy, just a remedy against rheumatism, arthritis and such.

 

It is still manufactured commercially in Eastern Europe, under generic names Vipraxin, Viprosal, etc. (from "viper" whose venom, in very small concentrations, is used to make it -- it's a nonspecific stimulator of the peripheral nervous system and as such helps with the illnesses you've mentioned, as well as other degenerative diseases, as well as with peripheral circulation problems, as well as flexibility and sports performance in healthy people). It is many times more efficient than all the OTC remedies combined, and many times safer than the strong painkillers and steroids made available to patients by doctors and to doctors by pharmaceutical companies to suppress the symptoms and drive the disease deeper (the only "treatment" available from this "reputable source").

 

I have a tube and use it sometimes to facilitate all manner of stretching routines -- it works great with yoga. A dedicated snake oil consumer, I am.

 

The origin of the remedy is TCM, by the way. The origins of its ridicule and refutation, pharmaceutical competition. (All non-patentable remedies have been character-assassinated in a similar manner. This includes everything people had in their medical arsenal throughout their evolutionary history minus the past one hundred years when medicine has been eliminated and substituted by the big disease business.)

 

It's always interesting to trace the history of our beliefs to their source and to the the money/power motives behind the source, don't you think?..

[Wayfarer64]

Hey this is easy!

Stay away from anything that is not in yr best interest to get involved with...

 

It IS , yes just that easy! LAWYERS, many doctors, spell-binders of many ilks, fakers of any ilk... loathsome miscreants in general should be distained or ventured amongst/with at great risk to life, limb and wealth...Beware the monkey demon!

 

Just check out their "auras" to see what they are all about, dontchknow?!

 

Pay attention to the people you are in contact with. Most are to be avoided at all costs. Trust no one, espescially relatives!

 

OK?...Now, see how you are able to cope with being alone- for many it is a blessing, a chance to go deeper within...

 

Then you may come back a better fella!