Spirit Ape Posted April 21, 2009 Mantra's. prayers, do you believe it really works? Ape LOL similar??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orb Posted April 21, 2009 Mantra's. prayers, do you believe it really works? Ape LOL similar??? LOL that was hysterical Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted April 21, 2009 LOL similar??? hahaha, "I believe you're in our car!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted April 21, 2009 These people need to study something called "coherence". In other words, if you know in your bones that disease operates based on random chance, and you temporarily "adopt" for the sake of an experiment an incoherent belief in prayer, of course it won't work. Furthermore, prayer almost always indicates incoherency in belief anyway. If your belief supports your desire, why would you pray on top of that? If you're praying, then something is not being delivered. Something is lacking. And if something is lacking, it must be because you don't believe in it, right? There is also a coherent way to pray. For example, you believe you can go to Florida. You stop at the gas station and ask for directions. That's prayer too. There is no way for you to be certain that you'll get good directions, and yet... on average if you continue this practice of stopping and asking, eventually you end up in Florida. Why? Because that was an example of a coherent belief. You still had to ask for direction, but you asked in a manner that was coherent with all else that you believe. Beliefs do not exist in isolation and you cannot casually supplant one just like that. Beliefs exist in a network and to change one means to change all of them to some extent. The closer the belief is to the core belief, the harder it will be to change it. This is why "The Secret" really is fraud. Because "The Secret" makes it sound like beliefs have no weight and like coherency doesn't matter or doesn't exist. Furthermore, all examples in "The Secret" are grossly materialistic, superficial, while work with beliefs transpires at a deep level. And deep level does not correspond to the superficial in such a straightforward and trivial manner as "The Secret" implies. "As above so below" does not work in a trivial naive manner. It's an abstract principle and every time you have some abstract principle and try to apply it to something concrete, you run into all kinds of trouble. The same happens with karma too. Karma is abstract, but it doesn't work in a straightforward manner at the concrete level. But that doesn't mean that anything non-straightforward and non-concrete is false. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted April 21, 2009 I love this video: No matter what you think, this guy makes great points that cannot be ignored. I don't agree with his worldview, but I don't ignore what he's saying either. We need little video clips like this in our world so that religion can become honest or become irrelevant. I can't wait for his clip on Mohammad as well. He did a good job with Jesus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fontana Posted April 22, 2009 Hi goldisheavy - are you saying prayer is always confined by your belief system? And that there is no value or relevance to prayer outside of this, beyond a functioning and coherent belief system? I watched the clip on 'disproving heaven', but it didn't really explain it, for me anyways. Sorry if I've misunderstood you, it's a topic I find interesting though! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
innerspace_cadet Posted April 22, 2009 Spirit Ape, I thought it was a thought-provoking video. I never believed in petitionary prayer anyway, because it is all based on coincidence and you are just treating God like a spiritual vending machine when you do it anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Hi goldisheavy - are you saying prayer is always confined by your belief system? And that there is no value or relevance to prayer outside of this, beyond a functioning and coherent belief system? I watched the clip on 'disproving heaven', but it didn't really explain it, for me anyways. Sorry if I've misunderstood you, it's a topic I find interesting though! Of course there is no value for incoherent beliefs. Think about it. The same guy that made the video, do you really think any prayer works for him? Even one? I will bet anything that not only do prayers not work for him, but that they are a hindrance and a nuisance in his worldview. That's why he's making those videos to help eliminate the phenomenon of prayer from his life. He explains that prayer is like the lucky horseshoe -- a useless superstition. Let the horse mouth speak for itself. I let him say what it is for himself. If you take an average self-proclaimed "Christian" and dissect their REAL beliefs, not what they claim to believe, but what they actually in-their-bones believe, you'll find that they don't believe anything in the Bible. This guy is right. He has another video that talks about that too. "Christians" don't really believe in Christianity, and perhaps that's good too. If they believed in it, they'd be even crazier and worse than they are currently. Edited April 22, 2009 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted April 22, 2009 The reason I put these up cause many people on this forum seem to believe in daoist mantras and prayers and do buddhist chants etc hoping to get possibly something back from it. There is many christians also here! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted April 22, 2009 The reason I put these up cause many people on this forum seem to believe in daoist mantras and prayers and do buddhist chants etc hoping to get possibly something back from it. There is many christians also here! Thing is, some people might get something from mantras and prayers! If the belief structure they live in is coherent with what they are doing, it will work. I support the guy who made those videos NOT because he's right! But because he poses good questions, and if any spiritual person wants to be real, they must become responsible, and they must know how to think about such questions intelligently and in a nuanced manner and how to discuss them without freaking out. I think this guy is bringing more honesty into both religion and spirituality, at the very least. He probably thinks he's promoting atheism, but in my eyes, that's not what he's doing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HouTian Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Edited April 22, 2009 by HouTian Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idquest Posted April 22, 2009 The reason I put these up cause many people on this forum seem to believe in daoist mantras and prayers and do buddhist chants etc hoping to get possibly something back from it. There is many christians also here! At a minimum, mantras allow you to focus your mind on them and on the meditation and diminish intensity of a monkey mind. Another point - most mantras engage acu points in some way. A sincire prayer the kind of Christians do could be in fact a nei dan work of sort. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fontana Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Ah, what I got from the guy in the videos was that cognitive dissonance is pretty common amongst many Christians. Fair enough. Personally, I'm not convinced that incoherent beliefs are of no value! Similarly, doesn't it seem as if there's an aspect to mantra and prayer that is not quite goal-oriented in the usual manner - and so not dependent on a coherent belief system to 'work'? I agree though that this guy's belief system would preclude the idea of any such thing working for him. Edited April 22, 2009 by Fontana Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unconditioned Posted April 22, 2009 The reason I put these up cause many people on this forum seem to believe in daoist mantras and prayers and do buddhist chants etc hoping to get possibly something back from it. There is many christians also here! I believe (haha) that mantras and prayers DO server a purpose but maybe not the same purpose as the individual doing those things intends. If you recite a word ANY WORD over and over in your mind, it just starts to sound like nonsense but what's really going on in there? The mind is no longer toiling with what happened yesterday and what could happen tomorrow. It's a form of escape at a minimum and is, in my opinion, a form of meditation. It's similar to watching your breath but instead you're repeating a word. Prayer on the other hand is very broad and means a lot of things to a lot of people. Where this can be useful is total surrender. By letting go of everything, you let go of your identity with your 'self', what can happen then? I'm not sure... just throwing out a possibility. What I do hear in the undertones though is an anti-religious religion. Check that out Not passing judgment, just making an observation... maybe I'm hearing what I want to hear? hmm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
