William Mistele's Site

[Simon V.]

That link to Mistele page is remarkable. Very complimentary to my current study of RJ Stewart's material.

Simon

[sean]

(Pssst, Simon, I split your post off of Jing Gong to a new thread. )

 

You know, I haven't even made time to dig into his site more deeply. I love the quote and the article it's from. I also love Bardon and find him to be a great bridge between my magickal past and more Taoist/Eastern alchemical present. Haven't explored RJ yet but I believe I've heard Winn say positive things.

 

Are you a student of the Qabalah Simon?

[peter falk]

That link to Mistele page is remarkable. Very complimentary to my current study of RJ Stewart's material.

Simon

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which link is this again? obviously from a topic i didnt read......

[sean]

which link is this again?  obviously from a topic i didnt read......

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The one in my signature, which could change at any moment, so http://lava.net/~pagios/

 

Sean.

[peter falk]

wow! that 's like, a really old website. musta been written in html 1.0. no graphics at all. only plain text files. so though tehre is nothing visually enticing about it, the info there is pretty fuckin cool.

[Simon V.]

(Pssst, Simon, I split your post off of Jing Gong to a new thread. )

 

You know, I haven't even made time to dig into his site more deeply. I love the quote and the article it's from. I also love Bardon and find him to be a great bridge between my magickal past and more Taoist/Eastern alchemical present. Haven't explored RJ yet but I believe I've heard Winn say positive things.

 

Are you a student of the Qabalah Simon?

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In the eighties I read and thought a lot about magic, relating it to my meditation experiences within a more zen framework. However, I was turned off by what was generally around me in terms of magic--Aleister Crowley or those influenced by him. Brilliant but too unwholesome for my taste; I was unwilling to focus on it too strongly or to team up with individuals who took him too seriously. I did of course learn valuable things from contemplating Crowley's material. Unfortunately RJ Stewart's (and his circle of magical friends, such as Gareth Knight) material just wasn't around Halifax Nova Scotia-- probably only in big cities (which Halifax is becoming but then it decidedly was not) and certainly in the UK, but not in my neighbourhood. So I focussed on buddhism. However, I was dreaming in alchemy, even then. RJ Stewart is very impressive indeed--I recommend The Miracle Tree and The Merlin Tarot to dive into his take on the qabalah.

 

Yes, I am a student of the qabalah at the moment; I think I would be getting much less out of it if I hadn't gone deeply into buddhism and also studied western alchemy through Carl Jung and especially by studying a book by Julius Evola called The Hermetic Tradition, which in itself is a cogent distilation of hundreds of alchemy texts he inhaled.

 

You have a magical past?

 

Simon

[Cameron]

Magic is fun at parties.

[sean]

[Simon V.]

[Simon V.]

I feel beholden to add that I did learn from that guy, who also has a side to him that can be a decent friend. In a way he was just naive... As we all were.

Simon

[affenbrot]

hi,

 

i have been reading in my Bardon book a lot lately and came across Misteles side by chance

also about last week! Funny.

 

The four classical elements-approach in this tradition attracts me a lot, I feel more at home here than with the 5 phases.

 

What struck me some days ago is that Bardon does a kind of work that seems in parts very similar to the fusion practice:

He lets you mediatate on the quality of the elements and stresses a lot to explore and balance your emotions (completly categorized into the four realms of the elements)

 

Having done this he introduces an abstraction of the four into two: magnetic and electric force.

He even does manipulate these two into a kind of rudimentary kan and li by forcing them together in the chest area for healing purpose.

 

I think there exist a lot of trials to compare the 5 phases with the four (plus ether) elements,

but im not sure if it is possible to make a one to one transfer....

 

 

About Bardon: i feel drawn to this a lot, but still: -I cannot Really perceive it- , but an intuition sometimes lets me see a lot of very low dirty, sticky, lower astral energy hanging around in this area. Not in his teaching , but in this field; probably produced by the people who used and abused these magic realms?

 

How do you feel about it?

 

 

cheers and excuse bad english

affenbrot

[tumoessence]

One way to see wood and metal is air in warm moist mode and in cold dry mode. One is ascending and expanding, the other contracting and falling. Spring and fall.

I think magic and working with beings is suffering through the pursuit of power and control rather than letting be and respect for all beings for what they are. Bardon's way lacks ritual escecially in the beginning so that we can rely on our growing ablities, rather than on a connection to a being even if unseen, that is connected to a ritual. I think Bardon's way is a yoga path but the difference maybe is in how "maya" is evaluated. Is it an illusion or a play. Is there value in the play? Is there beauty there? This way takes us through an appreciation of the inner of the outer so that we can become creative, and doesn't speed us to the Absolute as the only valid point of view. Yet the vast emptiness is practiced throughout from the first step to the last. See end of second step.

the pusrsuit of power starts as a habit in the first exercises of Initiation when we try to 'control" the mind rather than let it be and run out of steam to where is can be seen through. Those exercises can be done with a Dzogchen view on the nature of thought and effort. The vacancy of mind naturally develos through letting go. After all the western alchemist folowed the goddess Natura.

See www.abardoncompanion.com as well.

[Simon V.]

but im not sure if it is possible to make a one to one transfer....

About Bardon: i feel drawn to this a lot, but still: -I cannot Really perceive it- , but an intuition sometimes lets me see a lot of very low dirty, sticky, lower astral energy hanging around in this area. Not in his teaching , but in this field; probably produced by the people who used and abused these magic realms?

 

How do you feel about it?

cheers and excuse bad english

affenbrot

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I've sensed this too. A good overview of magic in the context of the qabalah: The Mystical Qabalah, by Dion Fortune. She specifically deals with the question of establishing yourself in a liberated, detached state before engaging in magical work, which in that lingo is to 'be initiated into tipharet' (which is like the goal of zen etc.), to get in contact with the internal sun.

Of course, many skip this part. I would say it is along the lines of what Sean has recently had to say about happiness being more important than anything else, a kind of basic ability to relax into your own skin, a conscious innocence, that cuts through encultured lines of meaning, agendas, where ego is game-like rather than carved in anxious stone.

 

Simon

[affenbrot]

I've sensed this too.

 

Of course, many skip this part. I would say it is along the lines of what Sean has recently had to say about happiness being more important than anything else, a kind of basic ability to relax into your own skin, a conscious innocence, that cuts through encultured lines of meaning, agendas, where ego is game-like rather than carved in anxious stone.

 

Simon

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mh, sounds true.

 

What I still bother with is the following:

 

if you now let your own state aside for a moment (what am I saying here? )

the possible weirdo energy hanging around in the mental field of a certain tradition - you are inevitebly going to have to deal with it - or not?

 

If I enter magic in the best possible way, relaxed, happy and with the most pure and highest intentions - the astral scum will leave me alone - or am I still are going to encounter it because its just part of the gathered information of its history (or part of me?) ?

 

Can you in the other direction think of a tradition that you enter with the worst shape

and still the tradition is so pure and "clean" not much will harm you?

 

But is the bad weird energy not the best thing to work with and the real challenge to deal with it (like in the abramelin rites, and well, alchemy?)

 

On which level does it really exist outside of myself or not?

 

 

Maybe I am just I little too impressed or afraid of power and so I start projecting my own fears and unresolved issues onto this and start "seeing" things that just are not existant.

 

On the other hand, aplying the dzogchen perpective would pretty soon let me lose all interest in Bardon anyway...

 

 

affenbrot

[sean]

I've sensed this too. A good overview of magic in the context of the qabalah: The Mystical Qabalah, by Dion Fortune. She specifically deals with the question of establishing yourself in a liberated, detached state before engaging in magical work, which in that lingo is to 'be initiated into tipharet' (which is like the goal of zen etc.), to get in contact with the internal sun.

Great book Simon! I loved this book. Even bought a poster of the front cover as I think it's one of the most beautiful paintings of the Tree of Life. It's by an artist named Patricia Waldygo:

(This pic does the painting no justice. There is a lot of detail)

 

Tipharet has been my main drive since early on. I believe it equates with a key unfolding/initiation in many traditions, ie: establishing quiescence, unfolding into a persistent Samadhi, satori, seeing the Vision of Beauty, achieving Knowledge and Conversation of your Holy Guardian Angel, experiencing Kundalini awakening, awakening deep Bhakti to the level of tapas, etc.

 

Good stuff.

 

Sean.

[Simon V.]

mh, sounds true.

 

What I still bother with is the following:

 

if you now let your own state aside for a moment (what am I saying here? )

the possible weirdo energy hanging around in the mental field of a certain tradition - you are inevitebly going to have to deal with it  - or not?

 

If I enter magic in the best possible way, relaxed, happy and with the most pure and highest intentions  - the astral scum will leave me alone - or am I still are going to encounter it because its just part of the gathered information of its history (or part of me?) ?

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RJ Stewart has said something interesting in this context in a book called Advanced Magical Arts. To paraphrase: If you are in a high state of potency, of concentrated energy, in silence, negative desire-based entities will not be able to persist in that environment because they will not be able to sufficiently self-reflect.

 

This is extremely useful information in my opinion, eliminating much potential hesitation, and in it shows some of what is best about the western tradition--it can offer truly pragmatic, 'scientific' clarity to otherwise often very fuzzy spiritual subjects.

 

The dzogchen view does not preclude getting into magical activities. The dzochen tradiion is actuallyvery mystical or magical, is very focussed on dreaming practice for example, and works extensively with the energy body.

 

Simon

[Simon V.]

Great book Simon! I loved this book. Even bought  a poster of the front cover as I think it's one of the most beautiful paintings of the Tree of Life. It's by an artist named Patricia Waldygo:

 

Tipharet has been my main drive since early on. I believe it equates with a key unfolding/initiation in many traditions, ie: establishing quiescence, unfolding into a persistent Samadhi, satori, seeing the Vision of Beauty, achieving Knowledge and Conversation of your Holy Guardian Angel, experiencing Kundalini awakening, awakening deep Bhakti to the level of tapas, etc.

 

Good stuff. 

 

Sean.

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That is a great painting. Glad you put it here to so I can copy it and print it out on some of that fancy paper.

 

I also like her use of the terms 'anabolic' and 'catabolic'. Stewart has adopted this. I read that book because it was on the recommended reading list in Stewart's book on the qabalah, The Miracle Tree--his first teacher, W. G. Gray, studied with Dion Fortune.

 

Simon

[affenbrot]

RJ Stewart has said something interesting in this context in a book called Advanced Magical Arts. To paraphrase: If you are in a high state of potency, of concentrated energy, in silence, negative desire-based entities will not be able to persist in that environment because they will not be able to sufficiently self-reflect.

 

This is extremely useful information in my opinion, eliminating much potential hesitation, and in it shows some of what is best about the western tradition--it can offer truly pragmatic, 'scientific' clarity to otherwise often very fuzzy spiritual subjects.

 

The dzogchen view does not preclude getting into magical activities. The dzochen tradiion is actuallyvery mystical or magical, is very focussed on dreaming practice for example, and works extensively with the energy body.

 

Simon

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Thanks for commenting, very helpful !

affenbrot

[tumoessence]

I think it is interesting that quite a few Dzogchen masters and other lamas are also shamans. Tenzin Wangyal rinpoche comes to mind first. So the space element is practiced and fully realized but the other elements are worked on as well.

Tenzin Wangyals approach to Zhine in Tibetan Yogas of Sleep and Dream is very much like Bardons first step mental exercises. What I meant by a Dzogchen view in regard to Bardon is in the approach to the exericies where there is more of a letting go of thought trains rather than forceful control. Also that true magical or yogic power is manifested from the akasha not by the ego, and that power is a skilful means whether in serving others or in a way of a pointing intruction.

One Bardon adept has said to me that just because we develop powers in this path doest mean we have to "use" them. The steps bring about a transformation in the practitioner in his world view and his relation to the greater world, and prepare us for the next step until we reach out goal or realize it.

[Simon V.]

I think it is interesting that quite a few Dzogchen masters and other lamas are also shamans.  Tenzin Wangyal rinpoche comes to mind first.  So the space element is practiced  and fully realized but the other elements are worked on as well.

Tenzin Wangyals approach to Zhine in Tibetan Yogas of Sleep and Dream is very much like Bardons first step mental exercises.  What I meant by a Dzogchen view in regard to Bardon is in the approach to the exericies where there is more of a letting go of thought trains rather than forceful control.  Also that true magical or yogic power is manifested from the akasha not by the ego, and that power is a skilful means whether in serving others or in a way of a pointing intruction.

One Bardon adept has said to me that just because we develop powers in this path doest mean we have to "use" them.  The steps bring about a transformation in the practitioner in his world view and his relation to the greater world, and prepare us for the next step until we reach out goal or realize it.

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Interesting thoughts.

I've noted the shamanistic/magical side of dzogchen, as well as its sort of inherent tendency to shed any dogmatic stickiness, something the other lineages are not as savvy about I find.

I'm getting what you said above re akasa through reading William Mistele's material--I have Bardon's book on the way to me in the mail.

"...manifested from the akasha and not by the ego..." reminds also of western alchemy--the real alchemy is done, given the cooperation of the alchemist engaging in the art, by the Natural Light, or God, and buddhism offers a skillful way of interacting with that in fine detail, not too loose, not too tight.

 

Simon

[DustWalker]

About Bardon: i feel drawn to this a lot, but still: -I cannot Really perceive it- , but an intuition sometimes lets me see a lot of very low dirty, sticky, lower astral energy hanging around in this area. Not in his teaching , but in this field; probably produced by the people who used and abused these magic realms?

 

How do you feel about it?

cheers and excuse bad english

affenbrot

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It's extremely interesting how similar a lot of us here at Taobums think! Virtual Sangha indeed as someone wrote! Affenbrot, you really condensed into words what I have had problems with articulating for a long time!

 

What you wrote above is the main objection I have against some or most of the western magical traditions (although I still think it's an incredible beautiful tradition as a whole). Myself, I started doing the intial exercises from Bardon's first book but had to quit. It's really Headstrong. I believe you really have really clinically pure intentions to commence his work. Something I didn't have at the time, somehow deep underneath I wanted it to help me to attract a possible girlfriend. haha!

I see Bardon's work as extremely potent and advice people to think twice before getting enmeshed into it.

 

Ciao.

[tumoessence]

Simon,

 

The translation of that book may never be perfect but that may be a good thing. It keeps us flexible in our thinking. Please check out Rawn's website at a bardoncompanion.com. Williams site is very inspiring and practical in many ways. Rawn gives a slightly different view for the beginnner. Check out the archives to bardonpraxis there as well as Rawn's commentary on IIH. Its all good there. It will help set your reading and thinking free in regard to the translation especially commentary on step one and two in the above pages. It really is a letting go with clear and focussed attention. I was given a great image for concentration exercises once by Friedemann Scwarzkopf (who?) Like driving in the rain and there are specks on the windshiel you don't concentrate on getting rid of the specks, you focus instead beyond them to the task, so rather than trying to get rid of thoughts I just look beyond the windshield where they appear to the task of the concentration.

I am inspired in aquiring the skills of IIH for working with the elements, condensing and volatizing, to help in alchemy practice among many other things.

[Simon V.]

Simon,

 

The translation of that book may never be perfect but that may be a good thing.  It keeps us flexible in our thinking.  Please check out Rawn's website at a bardoncompanion.com.  Williams site is very inspiring and practical in many ways.  Rawn gives a slightly different view for the beginnner.  Check out the archives to bardonpraxis there as well as Rawn's commentary on IIH.  Its all good there.  It will help set your reading and thinking free in regard to the translation especially commentary on step one and two in the above pages.  It really is a letting go with clear and focussed attention.  I was given a great image for concentration exercises once by Friedemann Scwarzkopf (who?) Like driving in the rain and there are specks on the windshiel you don't concentrate on getting rid of the specks, you focus instead beyond them to the task, so rather than trying to get rid of thoughts I just look beyond the windshield where they appear to the task of the concentration.

I am inspired in aquiring the skills of IIH for working with the elements, condensing and volatizing, to help in alchemy practice among many other things.

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I'll check out that site, thanks. Great meditation image...

Simon

[sean]

Simon, try to find the actual poster. If you want I will see if I can dig up the company I bought it from. It was like $12 or something and is beautiful.

 

Re: the "dirtiness" of Western Magick, it's an interesting insight and I've been chewing on it since it's been posted. I have similar intuitions and I'm wondering what the meaning is. I suspect that at least some of it is, as Westerners, we are more in tune with the "bad karma" of our gene-pool. Whereas we might have a tendency to look at the Eastern paths with a certain degree of naivety that comes from unfamiliarity and also from a subtle glamorization of the "foreign mystique". Kind of like a "grass is always greener" ... or "things always look better from far away" kind of phenomenon. The tendency for Westerners to fetishize foreign cultures, exacerbated by the typically serene, beautiful, aesthetic images of the "East" we are presented with by media, particularly spiritual-media. This in contrast to the more nitty-gritty reality of "our people" chanting in English or working with the underbelly of Christian imagery ... the latter seems "tainted" somehow. Perhaps by a hyper-awareness of our own culture's sins and "shadow".

 

Hope this makes sense. Rushed post, sorry, I'm on lunch break.

 

Sean.

[affenbrot]

 

Re: the "dirtiness" of Western Magick, it's an interesting insight and I've been chewing on it since it's been posted. I have similar intuitions and I'm wondering what the meaning is. I suspect that at least some of it is, as Westerners, we are more in tune with the "bad karma" of our gene-pool. Whereas we might have a tendency to look at the Eastern paths with a certain degree of naivety that comes from unfamiliarity and also from a subtle glamorization of the "foreign mystique". Kind of like a "grass is always greener" ... or "things always look better from far away" kind of phenomenon. The tendency for Westerners to fetishize foreign cultures, exacerbated by the typically serene, beautiful, aesthetic images of the "East" we are presented with by media, particularly spiritual-media. This in contrast to the more nitty-gritty reality of "our people" chanting in English or working with the underbelly of Christian imagery ... the latter seems "tainted" somehow. Perhaps by a hyper-awareness of our own culture's sins and "shadow".

 

Hope this makes sense. Rushed post, sorry, I'm on lunch break. 

 

Sean.

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very interesting thought!!

 

I remember some book (I think it was named "the dark side of the dalai lama" or something) that in depth dealt with the dark arts and magic in tibetan buddhism and the romanticism hindering westerners to see and acknowledge it.

 

For westerners, when they for example deal with traditional tibetan demons in a ritual one may feel a certain respect, connection and power, but mostly in my view this is just folklore.

It definately would never be that deeply scaring like it probably is for a native Tibetan, or if this westerner would summon the demons of his own tradition, e.g. the Abramelin rites or the Necronomicon (s.th. that let my toenails curl when even I think about trying - I never would. ..but a tibetan demon well, hey, exotic!)

 

So some eastern tradition compared to Bardon may as well carry a hell of dark things, it's just we are not tuned into perceiving it, like you write in your post.

It might in addition be that the idea of the would-be dark things around western magic are to some extent purposefully created by the Church and the bourgoise establishment to scare us away (witches! evil sorcerers!) - and these images are now so deeply imbedded in our psyche that we too well tune into it!

 

greetings,

affenbrot

 

(what the f... is the "bourgoise establishment"? I have no idea! - but hope you get what I want to express here:-|