Enlightenment, in depth

[Birch]

So I was looking at Dan Ingram's maps again in order to try to get a handle on my latest system failure;-)

 

Either I'm in what he (and others) term a 'Dark night' AGAIN (sigh) or that's just a load of crap and I'm just blithely in tune with the fact I'm overworking and undersleeping the animal and no amount of mindfulness or meditation is actually going to change that configuration until circumstances change (in a few weeks - my friends, TTB is almost my only fun these days;-))

As will be Thursday for Thursday is when I get to go out to dinner and have fun proper

 

So just for now I've pretty much chosen to walk the way of 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything ' - which is not only extremely hard to do but also proves some of our mothers were in fact right despite the rest of the BS they lovingly handed down (I did just add to that last philosophy ''especially to yourself or it will hear you')

 

I'm even considering getting a FU or 2.

 

Var, send me some of whatever there is good to send.

 

This place is great!

 

So, does that sound enlightened? I thought it very Ram Dass.

[Aetherous]

[xabir2005]

Edited May 6, 2009 by xabir2005

[Aetherous]

I guess I don't understand exactly what "wisdom eye" means here. The way I'm interpreting it, is that the wisdom eye opening is the natural perception of centerlessness.

 

If that's the case, then in my opinion the only person who should be considered an Arhat is someone with a permanently opened wisdom eye. It's strange to think that someone who isn't currently perceiving reality in the way it really is, could be considered enlightened.

 

And I guess I really don't comprehend the need for the 3 other "paths" of stream entry, etc. If it's not a natural perception of centerlessness, then how can it be called enlightenment at all?

 

I will reread Ingram's book tonight, focusing on the differences between the different paths and try to comprehend why things are set up the way they are.

[goldisheavy]

Actually by the time of Anagami the practitioner is already able to perceive the luminosity, centerlessness, impermanence, etc. of sensations in real time and daily lives and not just in fruitions or meditative states, which means an Anagami already has come upon some deep non-dual insights that is not just an experience but a seeing of what is 'always and already so'. I have an Anagami friend (not Thusness, but another friend who also wrote some good articles at http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html ) who is able to perceive non-dual effortlessly in all of his waking hours, with the only exception perhaps when he is in a very stressful situation or in the state of sleep/dreaming that the recognition seems murky (his non-dual recognition becomes clear near the end of his dream). Also in this phase, subtle dualities still remain until another phase of insight comes. (the difference might be the difference of Thusness's Stage 4 and Stage 5) Also, there will come a point where one is able able to perceive non-dual effortlessly in all states including dream, and Thusness did share some of his very interesting experiences with me about non-dual experience in sleeping phase (can't remember the details now).

 

This person might be helped if he reflects on this: "To perceive and to not-perceive" is fundamentally the same process. Thus, when something fades, let it. Even if Arhatship fades, let it fade and abide in understanding that perception and aperception are only said to be different, but that no actual difference can be found if one tries to look for it. This will really take the worry away and one will not try to attain Arhatship after that any more.

 

Other than that, I've looked through this "Thusness" person's blog and I really like it. He has lots and lots of good hints there. If someone reads it carefully, there will be much benefit. And I think it's very good that you link to it here on this forum.

 

I also strongly agree with you that there is a maturation process involved. It's pretty much impossible to say what it is exactly and to split it into stages is more mental gymnastics than truth. Hearing about stages helps and encourages some people, but it confuses and discourages other people. So the teaching on the stages is not the highest quality teaching. Maturation does happen though. We are like bottles of wine, in some sense. But grapes are also tasty, let's not forget that. When we contemplate in the manner that you describe, xabir, something strange or maybe not so strange happens... It happens slowly over the years. Something very very deep changes, imperceptibly and yet distinctly and significantly, and yet, look again, and the change is only ornamental and not significant. Ahhh... the shimmer of awareness is truly inconceivable.

Edited May 6, 2009 by goldisheavy

[xabir2005]

I guess I don't understand exactly what "wisdom eye" means here. The way I'm interpreting it, is that the wisdom eye opening is the natural perception of centerlessness.

 

If that's the case, then in my opinion the only person who should be considered an Arhat is someone with a permanently opened wisdom eye. It's strange to think that someone who isn't currently perceiving reality in the way it really is, could be considered enlightened.

 

And I guess I really don't comprehend the need for the 3 other "paths" of stream entry, etc. If it's not a natural perception of centerlessness, then how can it be called enlightenment at all?

 

I will reread Ingram's book tonight, focusing on the differences between the different paths and try to comprehend why things are set up the way they are.

Just clarified with Thusness on Wisdom Eye:

 

Thusness says:

*insight is permanent

*but having the insight doesn't mean u also have permanent experience

*just like having experience does not mean arising of insight

*what dharma dan means (by wisdom eye is) insight and experience as one.

 

[me] says:

*oic..

*dharma dan said some arhats have it fade but some arhats have the wisdom eyes open without ever fading

*its due to karmic propensities?

 

Thusness says:

*yes

 

-------

 

In short, all arhats have insight and realisation of Anatta, centerlessness, agentless, etc. which is always and already so as the nature of reality. Some may have their experience fade, which is meant by the fading of Wisdom Eye. But regardless of whether the experience fades, the insight has arisen and will never be lost. Some people (including me) have non-dual experiences but not the insight and thus cannot be considered as Arhats. Non dual experience is much more common than non dual realisation.

 

About the lower stages of enlightenment, certain insights must be there, to even be stream enterer.

 

However, there are also different phases and depth of insight. Also, perceiving non-duality and luminosity and centerlessness in real time and daily lives start at Anagami.

Edited May 7, 2009 by xabir2005

[Aetherous]

Awesome. This is something which I think very few people know about, regarding enlightenment. What a tricky topic.

 

Personally, I need a lot more time in meditation. This topic has given me a ton to consider. Thank you very much for engaging in the conversation, Xabir!

[xabir2005]

Awesome. This is something which I think very few people know about, regarding enlightenment. What a tricky topic.

 

Personally, I need a lot more time in meditation. This topic has given me a ton to consider. Thank you very much for engaging in the conversation, Xabir!

No prob. Yes meditation is important and I am also trying to spend more time in it. Edited May 7, 2009 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Edited May 7, 2009 by xabir2005

[nightwatchdog]

Here is the perspective of a few teachers whom I respect. Although they come from various backgrounds, it seems telling that they agree so easily with each other!

 

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[Chozen Wan]

One who is not awaken seeks to fulfill ones whims and personal desires.

One who is awaken seeks the Truth behind the lies.

One who is enlightened sees things for simply what is.

One who is in touch with the Tao has moved beyond these thoughts and ideologies.

 

Enlightenment is not a means to an end, rather, it is the gateway to the Tao.

Enlightenment is having the mind innocent as a child's, while being one with the Tao is feeling the nurturing love the child receives from its' mother.

 

What is it like being in touch with the Tao? Any attempts at putting it into words will fall short. That is why you will see few words describing it, but many words leading up to it.

 

Commentary:

What I said above, is my working theory so far from my contemplations on Tao, I believe the ideology of enlightenment and that of the Tao are intertwined in many minds. By simply seeing what 'is', one will be lead to believe these are two distinct places in one's spiritual journey. I believe, enlightenment is simply the gateway to awe, it is the gateway to the Tao.

 

Hopefully, you may find answers to your questions lying somewhere in your thoughts after reading this.

[goldisheavy]

For others, the effects may not be that immediate, but at least it serves as a good map so that one can gain right discernment about the different phases of insights and experience.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I will disagree with this. There is a class of people, whom upon hearing of the stages of realization will become hopelessly confused. Instead of being a good map, what will happen, is that these people will try to determine what stage they are at. But due to the quality of their insight, they won't be able to narrow themselves down to a stage. This part is actually good. Because if you think you're on a certain stage, your mind is too fixated. But the bad part is that, these same people don't have internalized authority yet, and crave external confirmation. Since external confirmation doesn't match their internal experience, there will be much confusion.

 

So a well developed mind but also one that lacks confidence in its own omniscience is the kind of mind that cannot benefit whatsoever from hearing about the stages. The truth is that stages cannot be a map because the experience is too widely varied, too dynamic to be mapped out. Often the person experiences 3 stages at once, or goes through them in random order, or has no discernment of stages at all, etc. Of course, as a Buddhist you can ignore these people and call them retards, that's no problem. But for me, I don't like that approach. That's why I am not a Buddhist. To me Buddhism is too limited. It's got some good tools in its toolbox though, but not enough to make me worship it as a wholesale approach.

[xenolith]

When body awareness disappears...bones barely are you aware...Tao only in mind popping awareness are you...experience will understand you enlightenment to be.

 

Moments after death or at your doing before...so few seek the latter...so many fewer will experience it...leaving so many without the experiential basis to understand what it is they seek...until the former occurs...irony permeates the Tao. It happens with a Bang either way...

 

Determination is key...deprivation helps...no wonder so few...

 

Its the way it is and the way its supposed to be...apparently...

 

...how profoundly unfortunate.

 

Peace an lotsa Love peeps,

 

xeno

[Birch]

ok, I'm caught;-)

[xabir2005]

Edited May 8, 2009 by xabir2005

[goldisheavy]

So in a sense these stages are quite universal

 

We disagree, no doubt about it. These stages appear meaningful only to beings with certain particular obscurations. There is no universal disease and there is no universal antidote. All antidotes are non-universal by their very nature. What is universal? It is the ultimate truth, however, the ultimate truth has no universal description. Descriptions of the universal truth are all antidotal (read: non-universal, non-ultimate, non-definitive) in their functions. The definitive universal truth is not something that can be presented, offered, or even taught to the person. It is innate and inescapable and it has no stages whatsoever within it.

 

So there is no way stages can be universal.

Edited May 8, 2009 by goldisheavy

[xabir2005]

We disagree, no doubt about it. These stages appear meaningful only to beings with certain particular obscurations. There is no universal disease and there is no universal antidote. All antidotes are non-universal by their very nature. What is universal? It is the ultimate truth, however, the ultimate truth has no universal description. Descriptions of the universal truth are all antidotal (read: non-universal, non-ultimate, non-definitive) in their functions. The definitive universal truth is not something that can be presented, offered, or even taught to the person. It is innate and inescapable and it has no stages whatsoever within it.

 

So there is no way stages can be universal.

I can understand that certain stages may be bypassed, but all insight traditions should eventually lead to the realisation of No-Self and Emptiness for liberation.

 

Regarding no universal disease are you saying there are people by birth who have realised no-self and emptiness?

 

As I see it, everyone on Earth starts with the delusion of being a separate self, and seeing 'inherent existence' in phenomena. I've never seen any other cases.

Edited May 9, 2009 by xabir2005

[xenolith]

So there is no way stages can be universal.

True.

 

Great Straight Upward Path evidences.

Edited May 9, 2009 by xenolith

[goldisheavy]

I can understand that certain stages may be bypassed, but all insight traditions should eventually lead to the realisation of No-Self and Emptiness for liberation.

 

Regarding no universal disease are you saying there are people by birth who have realised no-self and emptiness?

 

Yes. Otherwise what would happen is that Buddha's awareness would disappear with the body, which would go against "nothing is produced, nothing is destroyed" doctrine.

 

As well as what would happen is that Bodhisattvas of the 6th bhumi and above would fail to reincarnate. Since Bodhisattvas of 6th bhumi do incarnate, they do incarnate fully realized, for the benefit of all beings.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumi_(Buddhi...2C_the_Manifest

 

As I see it, everyone on Earth starts with the delusion of being a separate self, and seeing 'inherent existence' in phenomena. I've never seen any other cases.

 

Yes. That's due to the peculiarities of your vision. You will continue to see it this way for a while longer. You still think that Earth is a real place, etc. It's not a problem, at least, nothing that you cannot handle.

[xabir2005]

Yes. Otherwise what would happen is that Buddha's awareness would disappear with the body, which would go against "nothing is produced, nothing is destroyed" doctrine.

 

As well as what would happen is that Bodhisattvas of the 6th bhumi and above would fail to reincarnate. Since Bodhisattvas of 6th bhumi do incarnate, they do incarnate fully realized, for the benefit of all beings.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumi_(Buddhi...2C_the_Manifest

Yes. That's due to the peculiarities of your vision. You will continue to see it this way for a while longer. You still think that Earth is a real place, etc. It's not a problem, at least, nothing that you cannot handle.

Possibly, but it has to be exceedingly rare, I've never known any living examples of people 'enlightened by birth'. Even reincarnate lamas have to study all over again, attend many years retreat to gain realisations.

[Birch]

So what does that point to about reincarnation?

 

I guess not much.

 

If we're just constantly incarnating all over the place in the first place;-) Which sounds messy - and it is;-)

 

I have BDD (belief deficit disorder;-))

[xabir2005]

So what does that point to about reincarnation?

 

I guess not much.

 

If we're just constantly incarnating all over the place in the first place;-) Which sounds messy - and it is;-)

 

I have BDD (belief deficit disorder;-))

Enlightenment to a high degree is supposed to end uncontrolled rebirth.

 

Arhats will then enter into personal nirvana (cessation).

 

Bodhisattvas of a high degree of enlightenment do not have to return to samsara, are no longer bound by karma and defilements, but intentionally chooses to return to samsara to fulfill his bodhisattva path, continue his journey to Buddhahood, and save countless sentient beings.

 

And yes, we either take this by faith or not. There's a lot of people I know who remember their past lives vividly in meditation, and many scientific evidence to support this (see Dr. Ian Stevensons), but you still either believe this or not believe this, until you truly see it for yourselves then it is no longer a belief but an unshakeable conviction due to direct experience.

Edited May 11, 2009 by xabir2005

[Sunya]

I think rebirth happens every millisecond.

[Birch]

What is enlightenment? It means knowing your own mind as it really is.

 

 

This a good thing for this thread.

 

 

As I said, I have BDD ;-) Why insist so much on something that is belief-dependent? I guess it's not so much of a criticism than an outright question. I can think of some really terrible (and wonderful) answers!

[awake]

I think rebirth happens every millisecond.

 

how can you define a moment, when it does not end or begin?