Spirituality without an afterlife

[innerspace_cadet]

On religious forums, I often hear people say that "without a belief in rebirth" there is no point to practicing a spiritual path. I heard this recently said on e-sangha. I find this argument suspect. Even if there is no rebirth, no reincarnation, no afterlife whatsoever, I still believe that practicing a spiritual path is still worth it, because you will have made your life--this life--meaningful. In other words, you will still reap the benefits of a spiritual life, in this life. If you have promiscous sex, do a lot of drugs and alcohol, you will have a very short, miserable life, chasing after evanescent pleasures that offer no lasting satisfaction.

 

That's my position on the spiritual life. I am a complete agnostic on the afterlife, because having beliefs is no substitute for knowing, but the afterlife is not something you can have knowledge about.

 

Anyway, I think that if I reach a certain level of spiritual attainment, I will have gained a perspective on life and death that will render this "need" to believe in an afterlife moot.

 

But what do I know?

[DaoChild]

Personally, I don't care what comes next. It's unimportant to me because I live a virtuous life for its own sake.. I believe that if I live right - I treat my body right, my thoughts right, the people around me right - I won't have to worry about what comes next.

[Thunder_Gooch]

We do the best we can with what we have. I don't claim to know for certain what happens after death, but I see a lot of possibilities.

 

1. There is an eternal heaven/hell and reincarnation does not occur.

 

2. There is a temporary heaven/hell and reincarnation does occur.

 

3. There is no heaven or hell, and reincarnation does not occur.

 

4. There is no heaven or hell, and reincarnation does occur.

 

5. Reincarnation somehow occurs but liberation from the cycle of reincarnation is possible.

 

6. Other, or unfathomable by our primitive ape brains.

 

 

I find the prospect of continual reincarnation to be the only unacceptable outcome of all these scenarios so I am dedicating my life to try to overcome it. Also my spiritual pursuits give me meaning, purpose and direction.

Edited April 24, 2009 by More_Pie_Guy

[Mokona]

In my opinion reincarnation exists but there is an issue with Time. As I have come to understand it time flows differently, or not at all sometimes. God its a headache that I won't try to discuss. But yeah, I've had enough experiences happen to myself and even be verified by others to accept that it exists in some form.

 

Is it important to my practice? At first a terrible fear to learn if I was alive for a reason, if life after death existsed plagued me. Well... Now I just want to play, fixed that issue a long time ago.

[Martial Development]

If you have promiscous sex, do a lot of drugs and alcohol, you will have a very short, miserable life, chasing after evanescent pleasures that offer no lasting satisfaction.

 

Short maybe, but miserable?

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Martial Development

[contrivedname!]

If you have promiscous sex, do a lot of drugs and alcohol, you will have a very short, miserable life, chasing after evanescent pleasures that offer no lasting satisfaction.

 

 

or maybe you'll end up like william burroughs aka william lee

[nac]

Non-abiding enlightenment: the endless ending of frustration and dissatisfaction from moment to moment. How long such moments continue is irrelevant.

[hagar]

Non-abiding enlightenment: the endless ending of frustration and dissatisfaction from moment to moment. How long such moments continue is irrelevant.

 

What a wonderful question.

 

In a sense, what all this points to is that death is not present here, as you read this. So why worry about it.

It's really a non-issue, in its essence.

 

Only thing that matters is the state of what is looking at these words through you.

 

A friend of mine did his thesis by interviewing people who were dying. His conclusion was that an overwhelming majority were basically not oriented towards facing death, but instead towards wanting to live, and their regrets.

 

h

Edited April 24, 2009 by hagar

[宁]

great question indeed!

 

I had an email exchange with Master Juan Li, about the dreaming practices.

He founded the I Ching Dao System, which is a variant of the Universal and Healing Dao.

He told me that dreaming practice and transcence practices are less to be understood without a clear concept of afterlife. Unfortunately, he said, many of the modern practicioners are more interested in the health, sex and martial aspects of the training.

So there is little ground for further spreading and developing this kind of practice.

I for myself am interested in the dreaming practices...

 

Is here anyone that had experiences with Master Juan Li's practice?

 

Thanx

 

L1

[minkus]

I have no experience with Master Juan Li's system, still dreamyoga isnt new and an excellent way to keep cultivating where others would stop

 

Around one third of our life where sleeping, what a waste of cultivationtime. Luckely we have dreamyoga to be able to cultivate the intermediate state of sleep and dreams.

 

Some are really good in bed and sleep half of there life, naturally gifted ! They must be true masters of the bardo's lol.

 

On the original topic: belief or not .. its not the endgoal but the way to get there that makes it worth while. So yeh, even witouth a belief in reincarnation one can still harvest the many benefits of spiritual practice !

 

On a sidenote: im a believer yep

[zanshin]

I believe virtue and compassion can and probably should be cultivated in the complete absence of fears of retribution and aspirations of rewards, virtue and compassion are their own rewards not about what you're going to get for it.

[mat black]

I believe virtue and compassion can and probably should be cultivated in the complete absence of fears of retribution and aspirations of rewards, virtue and compassion are their own rewards not about what you're going to get for it.

Word for word, this is beautiful.

[doc benway]

But what do I know?

More than those who "believe", IMO...

 

 

or maybe you'll end up like william burroughs aka william lee

One of my favorite authors but I don't think I'd want his life.

Ironically, despite a life of complete indulgence in and addiction to drugs, alcohol, and sex, he lived to the ripe old age of 83.

Naked Lunch remains one of the funniest and most politically scathing novels of the 20th century, IMO.

[Yoda]

Good question! Personally, I prefer to have an afterlife but that's just me.

[Wayfarer64]

On religious forums, I often hear people say that "without a belief in rebirth" there is no point to practicing a spiritual path. I heard this recently said on e-sangha. I find this argument suspect. Even if there is no rebirth, no reincarnation, no afterlife whatsoever, I still believe that practicing a spiritual path is still worth it, because you will have made your life--this life--meaningful. In other words, you will still reap the benefits of a spiritual life, in this life. If you have promiscous sex, do a lot of drugs and alcohol, you will have a very short, miserable life, chasing after evanescent pleasures that offer no lasting satisfaction.

 

That's my position on the spiritual life. I am a complete agnostic on the afterlife, because having beliefs is no substitute for knowing, but the afterlife is not something you can have knowledge about.

 

Anyway, I think that if I reach a certain level of spiritual attainment, I will have gained a perspective on life and death that will render this "need" to believe in an afterlife moot.

 

But what do I know?

 

 

We can retain knowledge of past lives. We can see forward and project ourselves into our future lives- as long as these "visions" are of actual possibilities...

 

When much younger I had plenty of sex, drugs & rock 'n'' rolling as well... I also meditated and sought inner peace, as well as taught yoga - the one way or another approach to life just does not hold water... All of life is sacred and has meaning...

 

The value people put on their activities is spurious at best...The way I see it is that I have one very long life inhabiting a series of bodies and collecting/negating karma olong the way.... I do not think that my hours of meditation were any more helpful to my karma than my hours of making love to various women was...

 

I put no spiritual value on anything. Killing an evil being can add great goodness to yr karma! Kindness shown to that same being will go against you in the end!

 

There is evil that needs to be dealt with, and great blissful goodness to promolgate - Gaining insight into the 10,000 things and their interactions is the way to wisdom - while we are alive, s0- make yr choices moment by moment...

 

love to all- Pat

[contrivedname!]

One of my favorite authors but I don't think I'd want his life.

Ironically, despite a life of complete indulgence in and addiction to drugs, alcohol, and sex, he lived to the ripe old age of 83.

Naked Lunch remains one of the funniest and most politically scathing novels of the 20th century, IMO.

 

nor would i, nor would i

 

yeah and one of his drugs of choice was heroin, which usually kills most people pretty quick

 

i need to read naked lunch, i have only watched part of the movie and it seems as though to make a screen play which captures the intent out of works from a writer like him would be quite impossible. i also understand that the movie is something of an amalgam of multiple writings.

[Gerard]

On religious forums, I often hear people say that "without a belief in rebirth" there is no point to practicing a spiritual path. I heard this recently said on e-sangha.

 

Yes, people spend more time in forums than practicing the spiritual path, in this case Buddhism.

 

My advice:

 

Start walking on your feet rather than using your mind imagining you are walking the path.

 

 

Walk, sit, walk, sit, walk...move in a circle, twist, turn...move in a circle, twist, turn...

 

 

Like this:

 

http://www.durkhrodchogori.com/2009/04/med...on-walking.html

 

 

or like this:

 

 

 

Practice, practice, practice and less talk.

[rex]

Spirituality without an afterlife? Yes that's Humansim, but humanists don't call it spirituality.

 

eitded for the uausl tpyos!

Edited April 27, 2009 by rex

[Loke]

great question indeed!

 

...

 

Is here anyone that had experiences with Master Juan Li's practice?

 

Thanx

 

L1

 

Yes I has been on Juan Li's dream practice workshop but unfortunately I was to sick to have anyting else then an intellectual enjoyment. On the other hand I has also been on a dream workshop hold by Merilyn Tunneshende (Toltec sorceress) with the same physical condition but in my opinion her way to approch this subject was very similar.

[Wayfarer64]

The guy who started the Beats on their way- as it were -into drug usage anyway- was Herbert Hunke. He used to come to my gallery openings- one famous evening I introduced him to Kurt Mazur, who led the NY Philharmonic then... He was a gentleman and a quick wit, even in his 80's -

 

Heroin does not kill those addicted - going off it does. Just like it did Jerry Garcia...

 

It is how we livew our lives that counts... being afraid of conciquences offers little to do. Fear is the worst hinderance for every aspect of seeking knowledge- it refutes the drive and complex interactions needed to grow...

 

love to all-Pat

[Ian]

Is here anyone that had experiences with Master Juan Li's practice?

 

No, but I've heard him described as "the jewel of the Healing Dao", by someone who ought to know.

 

I have a vague memory of a story of him doing a little bit of a fusion course for Michael Winn, and all the participants wanting him to do the rest too, much to Michael's embarrassment.

 

But in short, no.

[de_paradise]

Spirituality without an afterlife or a purer density existence, would simply be a chosen "way of life", no better or worse than any other.

 

Before I became completely convinced of a self that is grounded in capital "R" reality, in contrast to our small "r" reality, it made sense to live a life that maximized an average 79 years of happiness. Sex is more fun than meditation, etc. But given that this earthbound life is a temporary pitstop, priorities greatly change.

[Pietro]

No, but I've heard him described as "the jewel of the Healing Dao", by someone who ought to know.

 

I have a vague memory of a story of him doing a little bit of a fusion course for Michael Winn, and all the participants wanting him to do the rest too, much to Michael's embarrassment.

 

But in short, no.

 

Uh, Juan is now Master?

 

So we are going to use the title Master in the West. I thought Michael have tried to stop that from happening (not related with Juan, just in general).

 

Juan was wonderful. Now I kind of understand...

I participated, much to my own surprise, to the HT family gathering in Paris. And I heard the spanish people lament that they needed help or everybody will go with Juan. It seemed to me very very weird. Here there were some cool instructors who should have been really really happy to have a person like Juan in their ranks, and instead saw him as a competitor. What was going on?

Now I see what was going on.

 

If I need to bet I might put my money that Juan school might end up being the best of the ofspring of the HT.

[JEN_A_KINS]

The guy who started the Beats on their way- as it were -into drug usage anyway- was Herbert Hunke. He used to come to my gallery openings- one famous evening I introduced him to Kurt Mazur, who led the NY Philharmonic then... He was a gentleman and a quick wit, even in his 80's -

 

Heroin does not kill those addicted - going off it does. Just like it did Jerry Garcia...

 

It is how we livew our lives that counts... being afraid of conciquences offers little to do. Fear is the worst hinderance for every aspect of seeking knowledge- it refutes the drive and complex interactions needed to grow...

 

love to all-Pat

 

 

Personally, I believe that nothing really spectacular happens when you die....the energy form your body is simply dispersed into the universe.

[contrivedname!]

 

Heroin does not kill those addicted - going off it does. Just like it did Jerry Garcia...

 

 

good point, though many overdose too, when they build up too high of a tolerance, and i would posit that it isnt the heroin killing them (it is physcially in a sense, but it is their choice [which really kills], though after a while it doesnt really feel like a choice, i'm guessing)