Honesty with people

[Aasin]

Hello guys. I'm new to the forums but I have been trying to learn more about the Tao through this forum and other websites alongside the books for a while now. The thing that finally got me to join this forum is a conflict I am having within myself and I don't know how I should handle it. I'm deeply conflicted.

 

I try to be nice to everyone I meet. Even those who I feel are reckless and dangerous I treat with respect because I know that I am no better than them because I have plenty of flaws myself. To have such an ego will lead to my downfall.

 

There is one person though whom I treat with constant disrespect. The reason being is that I feel she is simply too stupid and immature for her age. I used to give her the benefit of the doubt and treat her as an equal like everyone else but the seemingly endless hole of stupidity she has has actually begun to anger me. It has gotten to the point that I just see her as a joke.

 

Eventually I just stopped giving her the benefit of the doubt and just called her out on the stupid. Some of the stupid things she has done is forcing me to pay for her to see a movie (long story but she basically told me she didn't have any money until after I couldn't back out, mind you I'm the one in a worse money situation than she is), and not knowing how to spell our president's name even though she voted for him.

 

The part about her not knowing how to spell Barack Obama's name happened today and I flat out told her that this was pathetic. It just annoyed me to no end that a 24 year old could not even know how to spell the American president's name.

 

This is just a few of the many stupid things she has done.

 

So I'm really conflicted on how I should handle the situation. Part of me feels bad for telling her that she was pathetic and that I totally mishandled the situation. The thing is that I feel like I should be honest with everybody of my opinion. I feel like everybody just accepts her as being stupid and nobody actually tells her how stupid she sounds. I've seen plenty of situations where "friends" have let their friends practice unsafe habits and yet when someone comes along and is concerned, they are belittled and told to stop being the preacher of the group. Usually I'm not so blunt as I was today with her but I must say I don't think I've ever met anyone so stupid.

 

I've learned from the Tao that everything serves one purpose or another (no matter how useless it seems) and that it should not be regarded any different than anything else. I've also learned from reading the Hua Hu Ching that you'll encounter people who are reckless and that you'll have to just let them be.

 

So I'm really conflicted. Should I just let this girl be or try to nudge her somewhat so she can better herself? I've really tried (such as engage her in intelligent conversation which always ends miserably or get her to get back into community college rather than waste her money on a fancy car she can't afford) but it seems she doesn't mind being reckless and traveling a path (I feel) will make her unhappy. At the rate she is going she will be working the same dead end job for the rest of her life because she isn't aware of anything and I know that isn't what she wants. She wants to travel and see Japan for one thing but at this rate it will never happen.

 

So how should I handle this situation?

[Maharasa]

You only see through your eyes what you judge her to be. You judge her through your own distorted lenses as we all do. Leave her alone, stop judging her, if that is too difficult stop being around her until you can just accept her. Who is to say that what she is doing is wrong, who is to say there is a right or a wrong. I have found through life that many times those whom society judges as being stupid usually have the best hearts and those whom seem to be highly intelligent many times are not so heart centered.

 

Just let it all go

[sarnam]

Aasin I am new to this forum also and am attemting to learn about the way. First I feel you are being very honest in bringing this out and it shows that you have some awareness, I have a friend that I have been with for some twelve years she doe's many things that I don't like, but when I look around at other relationships around me I see we have so much that is good, it is really hard to do but if you are treating everyone else kindly you can do so with her also, try to look at her anew she may have some quality's you don't like but did they attract you to her or was their good quality's that attracted you - is she pretty does she have a unique laugh that you like? offer her positive way's that she might take. Remember the basic law is for every action there is a reaction,and you know this,you actions on her are comeing back on you and makeing you feel uncomfortble Yin and Yang makes up the world of ten thousand things apply yourself to the good. Thanks Sarnam

[nac]

Honesty doesn't have to be uncompassionate. If your true motivation is to help her, then point out her mistakes gently. Think what it must be like to be her. Before you do anything though, think of the consequences and possible benefits or your action. Eg. what good can calling her stupid accomplish? etc.

[Apech]

Its important to distinguish between unintelligent behavior or actions and the person. There's no problem with recognizing that some things are stupid or greedy or negative - but in the spirit of compassion and goodwill to all beings which is in Taoism and Buddhism means that you should try to avoid condemning people.

 

From a Buddhist perspective you should see these actions as the product of a confused mind and as such as evidence that the person is suffering and that it is your hope that they will be liberated from this condition. Other people should be viewed as potential Buddhas and granted this respect - whilst recognizing that their actions may be harmful.

 

It is a difficult lesson, if you are a basically well meaning person, that most people's minds are wrapped up in samsara and that because of this they can be quite vicious and selfish.

[Ladros]

I have tried to learn myself to let people be, let them come on their own pace and learn things on their own way. I hope, that that is the way for them to understand more. Realisation for things, what ever it is, just needs to come inside. I cannot change it for anyone else than me. My rock on my life have been my parents, but these days I try more and more to just talk with them on different things and on how those things could probably be seen differently. But then, in the end, just let them decide and give them support on what they have chosen to do. And I do faults too, that's been a good thing for myself to remember

 

And like its been said before in this thread, it is interesting to try to learn to see things on different point of view, not one of my own, as I am not perfect. And then try to practise tolerance and patience.

[Prince...]

I had to laugh when I read your post because I was in a similar situation when I was your age. Are you romantically involved with the friend in question? Do you want to be? How important is your friendship with them?

 

Sometimes it is good to be brutally honest, but even when you are being sincere, you are giving your own opinion. If you keep on judging your friend, you will lose her. I said I was in the same situation, didn't I? I kept telling my friend to quit wasting her time waiting tables and clubbing, to go back to college and get her education. At one time she was being looked at by schools like Stanford. Now she is doing club promotions in Phoenix and making 6 figures a year while I'm a broke grad school student.

 

It is important to fix yourself before you try to fix other people. Do you let people go down a path of destruction? Unfortunately sometimes you do. How did we learn not to touch the hot pot as babes? We had to find out on our own what it means to get burned.

 

Learn to accept people as they are. I wished I had learned this lesson when I was younger. I took the "greater than thou" road that you are headed down and I lost my best friend.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Prince...

[Aetherous]

Aasin,

 

Listen to Prince...

 

And your friend is not stupid. She is living her life the way she wants, and you're too closed minded. To be a friend, just be there for her to confide in and laugh with. Please, forget about all this "stupid" and "immature" bullshit.

 

I hope you don't learn the hard way!

[Aasin]

I had to laugh when I read your post because I was in a similar situation when I was your age. Are you romantically involved with the friend in question? Do you want to be? How important is your friendship with them?

 

Sometimes it is good to be brutally honest, but even when you are being sincere, you are giving your own opinion. If you keep on judging your friend, you will lose her. I said I was in the same situation, didn't I? I kept telling my friend to quit wasting her time waiting tables and clubbing, to go back to college and get her education. At one time she was being looked at by schools like Stanford. Now she is doing club promotions in Phoenix and making 6 figures a year while I'm a broke grad school student.

 

It is important to fix yourself before you try to fix other people. Do you let people go down a path of destruction? Unfortunately sometimes you do. How did we learn not to touch the hot pot as babes? We had to find out on our own what it means to get burned.

 

Learn to accept people as they are. I wished I had learned this lesson when I was younger. I took the "greater than thou" road that you are headed down and I lost my best friend.

This is great advice. I am not romantically involved with the person. She is interested in me but I know it is only because of my looks and little because of my personality. I once even told her a lie about how I had totally disrespected a woman once. Not surprisingly to me she made excuses for my actions and told me I was still a good person but I felt that she did this only because she was interested in me romantically so she sucked up to me. I've had too many people like that in the past.

 

To be honest with you my friendship with her means very little to me. She is the one always contacting me and I try to never turn anyone down when they have good intentions in mind. If she calls me, I make an effort to pick up and if I can't I plan on returning the call later. I just need to be careful though so that I don't find myself in a situation that should never have happened (like me paying for her).

 

What you have all said rings true. I will be honest with her still but not in such a malicious way as I was with her last night. That was downright spiteful. Thank you all.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 8, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Sloppy Zhang]

It has gotten to the point that I just see her as a joke.

 

So why are you angry? Laugh a little. If a joke isn't funny, that shouldn't give you a reason to be angry, it's just not your type of joke...

 

So how should I handle this situation?

 

Well first of all it's not your responsibility to "handle" ANYTHING. It's her life. Just as the joke says, "how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but the light bulb has to want to change." So too must this girl WANT to change.

 

Sometimes an opinion from a friend is enough to start a change. Sometimes they have to fall. Hard. And then sometimes they'll NEVER change.

 

So you have to realize that it's her life. Don't feel burdened to get her onto what you feel is the "right track". You can't see the future, you have no idea what lies down the road for her, maybe something incredibly good happens.

 

I'd say express your opinions a few times on things she could do, but in a nice way. Like, "you know, people who end up doing X say that they really learned a lot from the experience, and it made their lives better", something along those lines. But if she doesn't take the hint after a while, leave it.

 

As for the "way" and all that, recognize her for what she is: a unique individual with her own traits. Appreciate her for what she IS, not for what she ISN'T, and not for what you wish she COULD be. So next time she can't spell something, just smile, and appreciate her for her

 

Also, as a final note, remember there are lots of different types and areas of intelligence. You might think she's stupid, but she might surprise you one day by saying, "I can't believe you didn't know what, what are you, stupid?"

Edited April 26, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[contrivedname!]

your situation made me think of an interaction between two friends of mine that, until recently, had effectually put a huge strain on, not only their relationship but the relationship with my buddy and her husband whom is also our friend. my friend (the male) had the bad habit of drinking and driving, so my other friend in response to knowing he was about to hop in the car and drive away buzzed said "i hope you kill your girlfriend while you are driving"... harsh but he shouldnt have been drinking and driving. he barley had any contact with them for over a couple years as a result of this; however, he doesnt drink and drive anymore. so did what she say force him to learn something? may be or may be he ended up seeing the error of his ways on his own. see, in my preception she had been boiling about this for a while and then just kind of angrily went off on him, whereas may be if she had told him how much she disagreed with his choices, etc. from the get go in a more level headed manner, he might have listened and the relationship wouldnt have been strained. but on the other hand, may be he needed someone giving him the proverbial slap in the face in order to "wake up"

 

chris

[Owledge]

@Aasin

My advice (going in the libertarian-humanistic direction) would be: Mind your own business. That might mean to generally try to see things from other people's perspective, but focus your concerns on yourself. If you think she's stupid, as long as it doesn't have a negative influence on you, don't care. If it has, you are legitimized to give her open and honest feedback in the form of not judging, but stating the obvious and/or framing it as your personal opinion. When you get angry, it shows that she triggers a vulnerability/weakness of yours, but that could be purely emotionally based.

 

So for example, why not just asking her how she feels about or can deal with voting for a guy whose name she can't spell correctly? And if she makes you pay for cinema although she knows that she's got more money (thus lying), let her aground; let her receive feedback from her actions. That's a simple learning process about what's decent behavior and what's not. And if she keeps calling you, tell her that this conflicts with her behavior towards you and explain it. Do this from a not acted but sincere position of serenity. And don't do it in a way like giving her conditions on which she might continue to do what she does. You know, sometimes people lie, and you unintentionally give them advice about how to lie better.

 

The idea behind this is to help her learn some basic lessions about life in a relatively nice way, before she is painfully hit by them later. ... But remember, not from a standpoint of wanting to lecture her or doing her a favor (because if she learns them later painfully, who cares?), but only as a reaction of her negative actions towards you.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Hardyg