Muddled and obtuse

[Ian]

There a bit of Chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching which translates something like this:

 

Ordinary people are bright

I alone am muddled

Ordinary people are scrutinizing

I alone am obtuse*

 

Is this an accurate translation?

Can anyone offer more / better versions?

What is anyone's best guess at a commentary / what it's saying?

 

Bright scrutinizing answers only, please. No riff-raff.

 

 

* Source: www.Taoism.net and Tao Te Ching: Annotated & Explained, published by SkyLight Paths in 2006

[Aetherous]

This is my favorite passage in the TTC. I look forward to seeing what others say!

[i_am_sam]

I can't comment on the accuracy of any translation, so instead offer more translations to ponder

 

 

Ch. 20 Sentence 5

 

 

Beck Most people seem knowledgeable and bright. I alone am simple and dull. Most people see differences and are sharp. I alone make no distinctions, seeming aimless, drifting as the sea, like the wind blowing about, seemingly without destination.

 

Blackney When common people scintillate I alone make shadows. Vulgar folks are sharp and knowing: Only I am melancholy. Restless like the ocean, Blown about, I cannot stop.

 

Bynner The average man is so crisp and so confident That I ought to be miserable Going on and on like the sea, Drifting nowhere.

 

Byrn Ordinary people are bright; I alone am dark. Ordinary people are clever; I alone am dull. Ordinary people seem discriminating; I alone am muddled and confused. I drift on the waves on the ocean, blown at the mercy of the wind.

 

Chan Common folks are indeed brilliant; I alone seem to be in the dark. Common folks see differences and are clear-cut; I alone make no distinctions. I seem drifting as the sea; Like the wind blowing about, seemingly without destination.

 

Cleary Ordinary people try to shine; I alone seem to be dark. Ordinary people try to be on the alert; I alone am unobtrusive, calm as the ocean depths, buoyant as if anchored nowhere.

 

Crowley The profane man looks lively and keen-witted; I alone appear blank in my mind. They seem eagerly critical; I appear careless and without perception. I seem to be as one adrift upon the sea, with no thought of an harbour.

 

Hansen People of custom are lustrous, I alone am dull. People of custom are critically discriminating; I alone obfuscate. Bland! It's like the ocean; drifting! like I have no place to stop.

 

LaFargue Ordinary men are so bright I alone am so dull. Ordinary men are so sharp I alone am so stupid. Churned up like the ocean, blown about, like someone with no place to rest.

 

Legge Ordinary men look bright and intelligent, while I alone seem to be benighted. They look full of discrimination, while I alone am dull and confused. I seem to be carried about as on the sea, drifting as if I had nowhere to rest.

 

Lindauer Customs of men are clear, obvious The self alone is dark, indistinct Customs of men are curious, scrutinizing The self alone is tightly closed, shut off. So indifferent, it looks like the ocean Such a gusty wind, it looks ceaseless.

 

LinYutan The vulgar are knowing, luminous; I alone am dull, confused. The vulgar are clever, self-assured; I alone, depressed. Patient as the sea, Adrift, seemingly aimless.

 

Mabry Ordinary people are bright. I alone seem dim. Ordinary people are discriminating. I alone am ambivalent. As quiet as the ocean. As free as the wind.

 

McDonald The world is full of knowing people that shine; I alone am dull, confused. I seem to be in the dark. They look lively and clear-cut self-assured; I appear alone, depressed, or patient as the sea, blown adrift, seemingly aimless, never brought to a stop.

 

Merel The people are bright and certain, Where I am dim and confused; The people are clever and wise, Where I am dull and ignorant; Aimless as a wave drifting over the sea, Attached to nothing.

 

Mitchell Other people are bright; I alone am dark. Other people are sharper; I alone am dull. Other people have a purpose; I alone don't know. I drift like a wave on the ocean, I blow as aimless as the wind.

 

Muller While average people are clear and bright, I alone am obscure. Average people know everything. To me alone all seems covered. So flat! Like the ocean. Blowing around! It seems there is no place to rest.

 

Red Pine others look bright I alone seem dim others are certain I alone am confused receding like the ocean waxing without cease

 

Ta-Kao The vulgar are bright, And I alone seem to be dull. The vulgar are discriminative, and I alone seem blunt. I am negligent as if being obscure; Drifting, as if being attached to nothing.

 

Walker They are bright; I am dark. They are sharp; I am dull. Like the sea, I am calm and indifferent. Like the wind I have no particular direction.

 

Wayism

Wieger They seem full of light, I seem dull. They seek and scrutinize, I remain concentrated in myself. Indeterminate, like the immensity of the oceans, I float without stopping.

 

World Other people are intelligent. I alone am ignorant. Others are shrewd and cunning. I alone am untouched and moronic. I aimlessly drift on the great tides of the endless seas at the mercy of the indifferent winds.

 

Wu All men are bright, bright: I alone am dim, dim. All men are sharp, sharp; I alone am mum, mum! Bland like the ocean, Aimless like the wafting gale.

[Tao99]

...the sky is square, the grass is round, the beginningless beginning begins....

Edited April 30, 2009 by Tao99

[cheya]

 

 

I can't comment on the accuracy of any translation, so instead offer more translations to ponder
Ch. 20 Sentence 5

I_am_sam, that was great! Where did you get all of those?

Thanks,
   cheya

[mat black]

There a bit of Chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching which translates something like this:

 

Ordinary people are bright

I alone am muddled

Ordinary people are scrutinizing

I alone am obtuse*

 

Is this an accurate translation?

Can anyone offer more / better versions?

What is anyone's best guess at a commentary / what it's saying?

 

Bright scrutinizing answers only, please. No riff-raff.

* Source: www.Taoism.net and Tao Te Ching: Annotated & Explained, published by SkyLight Paths in 2006

It reminds me of a quote I heard one of Master Huas' disciples say once. He said the Master would remark that "the smart people always seem to pass me by"

I take "smart" here as refering to worldy cunning and intellectualising types, ones who use intelligence to obtain easy advantge.

Similarly, maybe LaoTzu is saying that he appears muddled to others, but it's because he is a sage and the sage has seen through everything in this world.

Remember that video that Hagar posted on the Master at Wudang? That man exeplified it to me. Seemingly simple and maybe even muddled, but underneath radiating bright wisdom.

A very good friend once wrote on this forum that the wise person has to sometimes or often play the fool and on the surface appear very ordinary. I spoke to this friend the other day and he had a very genuine laugh that reminded me of a child, but he spoke with great wisdom at the same time.

Edited April 30, 2009 by mat black

[Ian]

Chan Common folks are indeed brilliant; I alone seem to be in the dark. Common folks see differences and are clear-cut; I alone make no distinctions. I seem drifting as the sea; Like the wind blowing about, seemingly without destination.

 

Only this translation seems to make this point, which I like. Who this Chan?

[awake]

sorry its early and i cba to find what you're talking about. here is the whole chapter20 from taoteching.org:

 

What is the difference between assent and denial?

What is the difference between beautiful and ugly?

What is the difference between fearsome and afraid?

 

The people are merry as if at a magnificent party

Or playing in the park at springtime,

But I am tranquil and wandering,

Like a newborn before it learns to smile,

Alone, with no true home.

 

The people have enough and to spare,

Where I have nothing,

And my heart is foolish,

Muddled and cloudy.

 

The people are bright and certain,

Where I am dim and confused;

The people are clever and wise,

Where I am dull and ignorant;

Aimless as a wave drifting over the sea,

Attached to nothing.

 

The people are busy with purpose,

Where I am impractical and rough;

I do not share the peoples' cares

But I am fed at nature's breast.

 

hope this helps!

[i_am_sam]

I_am_sam, that was great! Where did you get all of those?

 

Thanks,

Adeha

 

 

Glad you like it, came from here -http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm

Possibly the reason the www was invented! I love the fact you can read all the translations together and come to your own conclusions.

 

I think Socrates summed up these lines quite succinctly - all I know is I know nothing

 

peace

[hagar]

Ahh!

 

My favourite.

 

This is Ch. 20 of Jia Fu Fengs translation. This book, beautifully illustrated with pictures by his wife Jane English was the first Daoist book I ever read, years ago. This is by far the simplest, most straight forward translation I have read so far. What it lacks in accuracy it makes up in direct understanding:

 

Twenty

 

 

Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

 

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense!

 

Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am.

Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

 

Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.

I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.

Others are clear and bright,

But I alone am dim and weak.

 

Others are sharp and clever,

But I alone am dull and stupid.

 

Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea,

Without direction, like the restless wind.

 

Everyone else is busy,

But I alone am aimless and depressed.

 

I am different.

I am nourished by the great mother.

 

Entire book:

 

http://www.iging.com/laotse/index.htm

 

h

 

It reminds me of a quote I heard one of Master Huas' disciples say once. He said the Master would remark that "the smart people always seem to pass me by"

I take "smart" here as refering to worldy cunning and intellectualising types, ones who use intelligence to obtain easy advantge.

Similarly, maybe LaoTzu is saying that he appears muddled to others, but it's because he is a sage and the sage has seen through everything in this world.

Remember that video that Hagar posted on the Master at Wudang? That man exeplified it to me. Seemingly simple and maybe even muddled, but underneath radiating bright wisdom.

A very good friend once wrote on this forum that the wise person has to sometimes or often play the fool and on the surface appear very ordinary. I spoke to this friend the other day and he had a very genuine laugh that reminded me of a child, but he spoke with great wisdom at the same time.

Edited April 30, 2009 by hagar

[awake]

This makes something sound like a bad thing.. He is depressed, and etc?

 

Ahh!

 

My favourite.

 

This is Ch. 20 of Jia Fu Fengs translation. This book, beautifully illustrated with pictures by his wife Jane English was the first Daoist book I ever read, years ago. This is by far the simplest, most straight forward translation I have read so far. What it lacks in accuracy it makes up in direct understanding:

 

Twenty

Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

 

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense!

 

Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting, not knowing where I am.

Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

 

Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.

I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.

Others are clear and bright,

But I alone am dim and weak.

 

Others are sharp and clever,

But I alone am dull and stupid.

 

Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea,

Without direction, like the restless wind.

 

Everyone else is busy,

But I alone am aimless and depressed.

 

I am different.

I am nourished by the great mother.

 

Entire book:

 

http://www.iging.com/laotse/index.htm

 

h

Edited April 30, 2009 by awake

[goldisheavy]

This kind of message will never be understood by non-mystics or non-contemplators. So don't bother trying. This is not logical positivism. Daoism is not a science of establishing all good traits and eliminating all the bad ones. It's not about how to be happy all the time. Don't you get it by now? I guess not.

 

Similar hints appear in Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi) as well.

 

Same hints appear in Zen/Chan: http://www.wwzc.org/translations/allMistake.htm (the first poem).

Edited April 30, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Taomeow]

The meaning of any individual chapters in TTC are best understood from the context of the whole work: it is tao-like in this respect -- a fractal of meanings whose any which line reflects the meaning of the larger context.

 

The larger context is yin-yang, the operational basics of taoism. TTC is aimed at restoring the balance of yin-yang in the human world, which has gone off kilter. This is the meaning of the whole, and this is what's holographically reflected in this particular piece. All people favor yang, I alone favor yin, that's what he means by showing images of yang activities engaged in by people in the world and his own yin inactivity he opposes to that -- inactivity fertile with creativity, wisdom, serenity, but "muddled" and non-transparent, not for show, not for consumption, not for external applications.

 

Other lines in the same work keep echoing this sentiment ("know the male but keep the female," "know the white but cherish the black," etc), and other works attributed to Laozi (particularly the Wen-tzu, which is supposed to be his oral teachings recorded by a student, and is to TTC what a novel is to a sonnet) get in greater detail but stick to the same principle -- "a sage has energy but doesn't squander it, has spirit but doesn't exploit it." I.e. it's not "anti-yang," it's anti-antiyin in its whole scope, which is the "correct and firm" stance to take against the pre-existing yin-yang imbalance in society.

 

So one could imagine an illiterate, uneducated, non-flashy, not at all left-brain bright, humble person viewed as a person of value rather than of useless dull stupidity, restored by Laozi to her proper place -- a noble and necessary half of tao's yin-yang equation.

[goldisheavy]

The meaning of any individual chapters in TTC are best understood from the context of the whole work: it is tao-like in this respect -- a fractal of meanings whose any which line reflects the meaning of the larger context.

 

The larger context is yin-yang, the operational basics of taoism. TTC is aimed at restoring the balance of yin-yang in the human world, which has gone off kilter. This is the meaning of the whole, and this is what's holographically reflected in this particular piece. All people favor yang, I alone favor yin, that's what he means by showing images of yang activities engaged in by people in the world and his own yin inactivity he opposes to that -- inactivity fertile with creativity, wisdom, serenity, but "muddled" and non-transparent, not for show, not for consumption, not for external applications.

 

Other lines in the same work keep echoing this sentiment ("know the male but keep the female," "know the white but cherish the black," etc), and other works attributed to Laozi (particularly the Wen-tzu, which is supposed to be his oral teachings recorded by a student, and is to TTC what a novel is to a sonnet) get in greater detail but stick to the same principle -- "a sage has energy but doesn't squander it, has spirit but doesn't exploit it." I.e. it's not "anti-yang," it's anti-antiyin in its whole scope, which is the "correct and firm" stance to take against the pre-existing yin-yang imbalance in society.

 

So one could imagine an illiterate, uneducated, non-flashy, not at all left-brain bright, humble person viewed as a person of value rather than of useless dull stupidity, restored by Laozi to her proper place -- a noble and necessary half of tao's yin-yang equation.

 

At first, it looks like you're getting it, but by the last paragraph it's obvious you don't understand it.

 

You were right the first time. Both yin and yang are important and are one whole. So there is no need to rescue the bumbling idiot in the last paragraph. The bumbling idiot can remain the same. You don't have to regard him as a man of virtue. Nor does he have a "proper" place to which he needs to be restored. If you think things have proper places, you don't understand sages at all.

 

Lao Tzu bashes addiction to yang. While it's not anti-yang, it IS anti-obsession-with-yang. So in some sense it can be seen as anti-yang as well. It's a correction. It's an antidote. When there is too much yang, you add yin. When people are too happy you add depression to balance it out and harmonize it. In fact, you don't need to consciously add it. It arrives by itself! That's the mysterious action of Dao.

 

To a sage, dirt is not dirty. Heaven is not heavenly. A particle of dust is not small. A universe is not large. Why not? Because sage, through a contemplative frame of mind avoids fixations. A sage understand that to think that universe is large and that a particle of dust is small is a narrow, limited and unproven view which can lead to disappointment as easily as it can lead to success, and therefore exercises caution.

 

If you don't view politeness as inherently good, and if you don't view coarse behavior as inherently bad, it doesn't mean you rescue someone or restore something to their proper place. Just avoid fixating your mind. Let your mind be more alive.

Edited April 30, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Taomeow]

At first, it looks like you're getting it, but by the last paragraph it's obvious you don't understand it.

 

You were right the first time. Both yin and yang are important and are one whole. So there is no need to rescue the bumbling idiot in the last paragraph. The bumbling idiot can remain the same. You don't have to regard him as a man of virtue. Nor does he have a "proper" place to which he needs to be restored. If you think things have proper places, you don't understand sages at all.

Um... I'm always right, the first time, the last time, and in between. You seem to have quite misread who I meant, or who Laozi meant for that matter. It's not the "bumbling idiot" he was talking about, nor I. Having chosen a screen name like yours, you seem to have been in the vicinity of the right track at some point though. Gold is heavy and gold is light.

 

As for "proper places," I rely on taoist classics to determine what these are for taoist sages. "Heaven is high, the earth is low; according to this, proper places in society are established." -- Ta Chuan. Note that "high" and "low" don't mean "superior" and "inferior," "better" and "worse." They mean what they mean: proper. Foundation below, roof on top. Proper places. Yin the foundation, yang the outer shell. Proper understanding. I also rely on the opinions of my live taoist teachers. Lastly, on my own best judgment. What about you? Who's your authority?

 

As for politeness of sages -- Laozi's opinion in Chapter 15; mine, withheld.

[idquest]

Thanks, Taomew.

[mat black]

The translations that i am sam listed are great because although I feel they are all saying the same thing essentially, the variations broaden the applications of the verse.

 

So, I'll have another crack at it............

Ordinary people are bright

I alone am muddled

Common folks are indeed brilliant;

I alone seem to be in the dark.

The first two lines of each verse refers to the appearance in superficial, worldy terms as viewed by most people. The sage might seem or appear dark on the surface, but it's only an outward impression viewd by most.

 

Ordinary people are scrutinizing

I alone am obtuse

Common folks see differences and are clear-cut;

I alone make no distinctions

Most people, judge and hold to views and opinions and therefore "scrutinize", see differences" that are "clear cut". The sage, being obtuse (round/soft) does not discriminate, does not hold to preferences and hence is accommodating. By being accommodating, he is accommodated by the source itself.

 

I like the term obtuse, it's similar to round, like zero

The zero makes no distinctions, no discriminations, may even seem dull, yet all possibilites come from it. In expaning or contracting it remains round. Remaining round it does not contend, by not contending it is always at peace, at one with the Tao.

 

Just a guess anyway

Edited May 1, 2009 by mat black

[contrivedname!]

To a sage, dirt is not dirty. Heaven is not heavenly. A particle of dust is not small. A universe is not large. Why not? Because sage, through a contemplative frame of mind avoids fixations. A sage understand that to think that universe is large and that a particle of dust is small is a narrow, limited and unproven view which can lead to disappointment as easily as it can lead to success, and therefore exercises caution.

 

"no one has lived longer than a dead child and old p'eng tsu died young"

 

 

 

A very good friend once wrote on this forum that the wise person has to sometimes or often play the fool and on the surface appear very ordinary. I spoke to this friend the other day and he had a very genuine laugh that reminded me of a child, but he spoke with great wisdom at the same time.

 

good pointe to make. i particularly enjoy the sayings of Layman P'ang (which i just recently read); gotta love the zendaoist lunatics

 

there is a story in lieh tzu that talks about the sage horsetrainer. he sent the king a sage horse and when the king asked what color and sex it was he stated that it was a brown mare, when the king saw it it was a black stallion and the king then wondered what kind of horse trainer couldnt even tell the sex or color of the horse

[contrivedname!]

The meaning of any individual chapters in TTC are best understood from the context of the whole work

 

i agree

 

so what of the chapters that state "he who speaks doesnt know he who knows doesnt speak" and then the passage about not wanting to become full [in this case of knowledge]?

[seadog]

What a great thread

The depth and simplicity of the TTC always brings a smile.

Chapter twenty is like a long finger pointing the direction inwhich the sage takes.

Unlike the rest of society,the sage is rowing against lifes course.

He has jumped out of the cycle of birth and death and gone in reverse.

The sage is on a journey of return to the source.

So he is the effective opposite of society

In appearence seems dull and stupid

but in truth vast and free of anything.

[forestofsouls]

Goldisheavy,

 

For your tireless efforts throughout the Taobums, I hereby award you the title:

 

EGO SNAGGER. You should change your handle to "egoissnagged."

 

[Taomeow]

i agree

 

so what of the chapters that state "he who speaks doesnt know he who knows doesnt speak" and then the passage about not wanting to become full [in this case of knowledge]?

 

As usual, taoist symbolism is polyphonic, and in a polyphony a=b doesn't work, defining one thing by saying it is another thing ("John is a dentist," "tao is emptiness," "tao is fullness," "John is a husband of Mary's") doesn't cut it... much to our cultural chagrin. I always like to quote my taijiquan teacher on this -- he would explain a move by reminding us, "nothing Chinese is ever straightforward!"

 

That's because "straightforward" is the straight line of yang, and taoist arts are about the curved lines of yin. Linear knowledge is the domain of the left brain, and "those who speak" use the left brain hemisphere, the predominantly yang one in charge of the language. The yin, right half of the brain, doesn't understand language, "doesn't speak" -- it understands images instead, recognizes patterns, analyzes nonlinear information and arrives at nonlinear conclusions that cannot be expressed by linear methods of spoken languages.

 

"Knowledge" Laozi doesn't want to be full of is this step-by-step linear logical straight-line a=b kind of knowledge, the yang kind. "Muddled" non-knowledge is the right brain kind, it is not ignorance, it is understanding by different means, nonlinear, non-full --

 

you can fill something up with "items," items of knowledge, and clutter the brain with these ad infinitum, the bigger the pile, the more useless the clutter of knowledge items, the harder it is to actually put to any good use... Or you can keep the mind in a state where empty and full are sides of the same nonlinear coin -- and things are grasped out of this empty fullness in their entirety... the way yin-mother gives birth to a baby in its entirety, not one body part at a time, not a hand today, a liver on Tuesday, a heart at doctor's discretion... nope, the linear yang way doesn't work to create wholeness, only to cut it into pieces -- now a surgeon would use the linear scalpel and a linear explanation, but the scalpel can only separate parts, not unite them. The "muddled" way is the unification way -- the straightforward way is the separation way. Laozi's opinion is that we the people have too much of the separation ways (of which spoken language is one) and not enough of the unification ways. His work is about possible/desirable attitudes to cultivate so as to correct this. Like most tao-minded classics, and like most things Chinese in general, Laozi is first and foremost (gasp) pragmatic.

[goldisheavy]

Goldisheavy,

 

For your tireless efforts throughout the Taobums, I hereby award you the title:

 

EGO SNAGGER. You should change your handle to "egoissnagged."

 

 

Thanks!