practice obstacle I stumbled upon

[Magda]

Hello all,

 

I developed a recurring theme in my thoughts that I can't get rid of and it slows me down drastically.

 

That is, the theme of unrealness and trickery.

 

What I mean in general is that there are various religions, traditions, systems, and when I pick one and try to practice, there's this nagging thought that it contradicts others, and hence it might be bollocks. When contradiction is huge it doesn't matter, but it matters when you think of things that are very very alike.

 

For example, chi kung and chinese medicine have no "chakras" that Indians have. Yet it's "the same thing", because it's the same level of "energy". SO HOW COME BODY ENERGY STRUCTURE IS DIFFERENT, how is it possible?!

 

This issue prevents me from believing that there's something "real" behind the whole notion of energy, and I start thinking that chi must be an imaginary concept that somehow works in a way of trickery. That is, you trick yourself that there is something, but in reality you do everything without the help of chi, by something like will-force.

 

That's an unhealthy attitude I realize. Yet I know of no way to get rid of it. I can pretend to believe, but mental pretense is never motivating. Who wants to put effort into a kind of practice that feels imaginary? I certainly want a real thing.

 

Does anybody have an idea how to solve the situation?

 

P.S. And if somebody had or has this very problem I'd be especially grateful to hear from you.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Magda

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes. I have had the same problem.

 

The solution? Hundreds of hours of research and personal practice until you come to an answer that satisfies you. Well sometimes it doesn't take hundreds of hours, but it can.

 

There's an interesting thread here about mapping the subtle energy body: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=1566

 

That was a very important thread for me, because of the chakra vs. dan tiens issue. Everyone kept saying that the second chakra was the same as the lower dan tien, but that didn't sit well with me, especially as the lower dan tien is considered the major energy center providing energy to the body, but that sounds like the third chakra, and it all got very confusing. That thread lead me to a conclusion for me. (look specifically at affenbrot's post about the kanda)

 

The thing is that there's so much partial info out there, and a lot of people with partial info passing off their info as correct. The indian energetic system is COMPLEX. The chinese energetic system is COMPLEX. There are things that are very similar, but very different. There are some things that are, for all intensive purposes, the same.

 

Sometimes you just have to get the info firsthand yourself and draw your own conclusions. In fact, that's what you have to do anyway.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Trixter Streetcat]

i think i know what you mean.

 

i have the same doubts some time. like there are things that I know deep down inside myself, that I have learnt from my own experience. then there are also things that i've read and researched and gotten into and "explored", thus found useful and kept and eventually somewhat "felt". but it's like they're not really the "real thing". the "real thing" is felt deep down and irrefutably as part of the truth. i might say that the "real thing" comes before the interpretation of it as energy, chakras, etc..., it gives all those things a new meaning. however, when it's not the real thing, you're always wondering if you're doing it right. you're always wondering if you'll get the right result. whereas the real thing IS in itself the impression, the practice and the result. or something like that...

 

i'd say go with it. don't believe in any system, leave all taboos and judgement behind. don't think it's an "unhealthy" attitude. on the contrary, keep pushing keep enquiring, forget about right or wrong and see where it leads. don't believe anything anyone says, not even me. see what you can find out for yourself truly and really without fearing if it'll be right or wrong. even if it contradicts the great guru's system. you're probably on to something.

 

lately i have been wondering if chi is "energy" at all in the way we imagine it to be, like a white-golden, ethereal light-fluid that enters the crown and courses meridians and "shoots" out of hands, and we just can't see it because we haven't developed our eyes... i don't know, maybe, who knows? maybe people would like to pitch in on this one...

i just have the feeling sometimes too that "chi" or "energy" is much more akin to that "will force" you spoke about, something shapeless and formless but very real like love or something. and so for instance healing systems are just another way to "love" except that no one can explain to you how to love, you just do. so instead they say "well, you place your hands on the person, you think of nothing, and sense a light coming to you from the universe, coursing you and going into the person, which is the most powerful light in the universe and what the universe is made of and it heals and makes everything better."

I mean, can you think of a better way of explaining to someone how to love? in the end, it won't be all the explanation which will make you love, you just will. but since you ask and that's a silly question, that's the best (and silliest) answer i can give you.

 

chi, like love, is much more spontaneous that we think. if you have to love, you'll love, if you have to heal, you'll heal, if you have to sneeze, you'll sneeze. you can't do it on command. doesn't mean you don't have the capacity to do it, if necessity called for it. you can also pretend to sneeze, or pretend to love the table. there's absolutely no use for that, and if you try hard enough you'll probably manage to do it. but when you truly love someone you'll know it right away and you'll remember how easy and obvious and spontaneous and god-given and all those other divine adjectives it really was. simpler than you thought all along. and what you had been doing all along was really just a poor copy.

 

don't worry about the real thing. it'll come just by itself. keep doing what you like, practicing, meditating. life, i think, is the best practice. i like meditation and martial arts, but i think that's a tao bums contagion. i like writing too. awareness is probably very useful, since you can actually "notice" yourself doing the real thing. the real thing is all around us, we're just too busy all the time trying to feel the "other" thing. don't be afraid, we've been afraid too long. there's nothing wrong with you, you're on the right path.

 

hope this makes sense.

("sense"! that's a "chi" i'd like to wield!)

 

trixter.

[Sloppy Zhang]

i think i know what you mean.

 

i have the same doubts some time. like there are things that I know deep down inside myself, that I have learnt from my own experience. then there are also things that i've read and researched and gotten into and "explored", thus found useful and kept and eventually somewhat "felt". but it's like they're not really the "real thing". the "real thing" is felt deep down and irrefutably as part of the truth. i might say that the "real thing" comes before the interpretation of it as energy, chakras, etc..., it gives all those things a new meaning. however, when it's not the real thing, you're always wondering if you're doing it right. you're always wondering if you'll get the right result. whereas the real thing IS in itself the impression, the practice and the result. or something like that...

 

i'd say go with it. don't believe in any system, leave all taboos and judgement behind. don't think it's an "unhealthy" attitude. on the contrary, keep pushing keep enquiring, forget about right or wrong and see where it leads. don't believe anything anyone says, not even me. see what you can find out for yourself truly and really without fearing if it'll be right or wrong. even if it contradicts the great guru's system. you're probably on to something.

 

don't worry about the real thing. it'll come just by itself. keep doing what you like, practicing, meditating. life, i think, is the best practice. i like meditation and martial arts, but i think that's a tao bums contagion. i like writing too. awareness is probably very useful, since you can actually "notice" yourself doing the real thing. the real thing is all around us, we're just too busy all the time trying to feel the "other" thing. don't be afraid, we've been afraid too long. there's nothing wrong with you, you're on the right path.

 

hope this makes sense.

("sense"! that's a "chi" i'd like to wield!)

 

trixter.

 

Very nice thoughts on the "real thing"

 

I myself am currently in the process of getting out of.... well... what I guess could really be a huge period of doubt. I mean, looking at it objectively it's useless, and isn't getting me anywhere, but I just can't help feeling that what I'm doing isn't the "real thing", but when I look around and do other things, they just don't feel "real", and I wind up back where I started.

 

But I guess everyone needs to go through doubt, seriously question what they are doing, and come to their own conclusion. And like you said, sometimes you gotta break the rules and do what's right for you.

 

Again, very well said.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Trixter Streetcat]

sorry, double posted

Edited May 3, 2009 by Trixter Streetcat

[Trixter Streetcat]

maybe the real thing is just not something that you can "do". i mean i can sit and close my eyes and breathe and meditate, so to speak. sometimes it'll be great and others it'll be crappy. sometimes i'll be satisfied, others not.

maybe that's the real thing. just being aware of that, of things being like that.

 

like the real thing isn't something that you do, it's something that does you.

 

like life, or love. it happens. whether it's in or out of your control is of little importance. also, i think looking at time in a larger frame is useful. "now" can be a very tiny moment in "time", but "now" can also be, "these times". "now" could be all the time (it is if you think of it).

 

sometimes, looking back, i can see something was the real thing and i didn't even notice when it happened. it was normal. from the outside it would have seemed miraculous. it was normal at the moment. then i remember it and say, "wow, now that was the real thing". so maybe you can't know the real thing now but you can know that you knew it. that also means that you're living the real thing RIGHT NOW, but it's possible that you won't realize it until you're looking back on it. that's something that happens to me.

 

wow, these kinds of things are really difficult to write about...

[de_paradise]

I realized some time ago that all descriptions of the energy etheric qi body are vastly insufficient and laughable by modern science's body mapping standards, yet modern science does not have the necessary technology or knowlege to even start and etheric body map, what will be quite a task for future generations.

 

There are useful, practical approximations, the same as maps can be drawn differently but still be useful: but nevertheless not the territory.

 

The enlightenment process is very very complicated. We dont need to know what is happening on a biochemical level or etheric body level for it to happen...

 

Whether you choose to find evidence of qi or choose to find nay-sayers is your issue. It may be a big sham indeed

[DaoChild]

Many people would say that experiencing is believing. I never have experienced miraculous Chi in any form, but then again I don't do QiGong.

 

I've had quite a few 'mystical' experiences of my own, but I have been doubting myself every day since I began meditation at age 13. But things such as OBE give interesting food for thought.

 

I'm not sure if that helps you - but perhaps if you pick one exercise, and stick with it long enough, hopefully within a few months you'll realize real concrete results.

[doc benway]

Hello all,

 

I developed a recurring theme in my thoughts that I can't get rid of and it slows me down drastically.

 

That is, the theme of unrealness and trickery.

 

What I mean in general is that there are various religions, traditions, systems, and when I pick one and try to practice, there's this nagging thought that it contradicts others, and hence it might be bollocks. When contradiction is huge it doesn't matter, but it matters when you think of things that are very very alike.

 

For example, chi kung and chinese medicine have no "chakras" that Indians have. Yet it's "the same thing", because it's the same level of "energy". SO HOW COME BODY ENERGY STRUCTURE IS DIFFERENT, how is it possible?!

 

This issue prevents me from believing that there's something "real" behind the whole notion of energy, and I start thinking that chi must be an imaginary concept that somehow works in a way of trickery. That is, you trick yourself that there is something, but in reality you do everything without the help of chi, by something like will-force.

 

That's an unhealthy attitude I realize. Yet I know of no way to get rid of it. I can pretend to believe, but mental pretense is never motivating. Who wants to put effort into a kind of practice that feels imaginary? I certainly want a real thing.

 

Does anybody have an idea how to solve the situation?

 

P.S. And if somebody had or has this very problem I'd be especially grateful to hear from you.

Very nice post Magda. Your problem is intelligence.

 

I haven't pontificated in a while so here goes...

 

Most people stumble blindly through the world, believing what they're told by authorities and gurus of one sort or another. All religions distort the truth - that is unavoidable because truth can never be captured in words or thoughts or doctrines. The core principles contain truth and all of the details piled on top by successive generations of believers eventually turn to bullshit. Osho said it well - 'true religion is an individual's personal search for truth, spirituality, God, whatever you want to label it; everything else is politics.'

 

Truth can be experienced. To put it more simply, truth is experience. What else can it possibly be? Sure, anyone can make a gratuitous assertion about the nature of reality that can never be proven or disproven, that's what has gone on since the beginning. Every tradition has a long winded and detailed explanation of that which can never be understood or explained... yawn...

 

Open your eyes and mind and heart and experience life for what it is. Don't mistake words and images for reality. Words and concepts (like chakrah and dan tian) are not reality, they are a useful tool for approximating and communicating about reality but nothing more than that. People take all kinds of liberties with words and ideas. It gives them a sense of security, makes them feel comfortable because you feel that you can control what you understand.

 

Reality on the other hand is reality. It simply is. That is the energy every one talks about as if it is something mysterious and magical. It is! And at the same time, it's all around us and we ignore it (and look for something more exotic and magical) because it is us. You are the very energy you seek. Feeling Qi is nothing magical, it is just tuning your awareness to another "wavelength," if you will, of your existence. We are basically antennae, tuned to receive certain wavelengths (of light and sound and touch) and ignore the rest. Some practices (yoga, prayer, meditation) can perhaps heighten your awareness and different traditions approximate those experiences with different words. It's really not a big deal.

 

I'm not saying that there is no value in practices. I do it. Practices take you to a door but ultimately you have to pass through alone and naked, without your words and concepts. All of that has to be abandoned to approach truth. No one and no practice can show you the truth. You have to find that in yourself, alone.

 

Sorry for rambling, perhaps the fire in my belly hasn't gone completely out yet after all...

 

 

Good luck in your search.

[Magda]

The solution? Hundreds of hours of research and personal practice until you come to an answer that satisfies you. Well sometimes it doesn't take hundreds of hours, but it can.

 

There's an interesting thread here about mapping the subtle energy body: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=1566

Thanx. I'm studying the link.

 

The idea there that chakras and dan tiens are of a different nature entirely is surely interesting. It didn't occur to me.

 

Such threads are both blessing and curse, though. I find it hard to trust people who never experienced real energy talk about it. It may be good enough, though, to quiet the mind on this topic for a while! Some links in that thread point to dubious places, like astral dynamics site. Basically you need to at least know that the person speaking ever practiced those few systems that are compared, in order for the words to carry some weight. If not, it's as good as any guess.

 

But I guess it's okay. Anyway, all that is not about searching for definite truth, but about concocting a comfortable explanation that sounds convincing and puts the mind at ease.

 

The enlightenment process is very very complicated. We dont need to know what is happening on a biochemical level or etheric body level for it to happen...

It's buddhist enlightenment that doesn't require any understanding of energy, other "enlightenments" might. Even tantric buddhism already employs energy manipulation.

 

Whether you choose to find evidence of qi or choose to find nay-sayers is your issue. It may be a big sham indeed

Well, I doubt that somebody could convince me by now that energy doesn't exist at all! The worst that can happen is that I start stupidly thinking that it's the magical will-force. All I want is to decide how various "energy-stuff" manages to be unnoticed by other systems, it's difficult to constantly dwell on that in surprise and annoyance.

 

But you haven't said anything about yourself. What's you take on the issue, don't you find it hindering for your motivation?

 

 

 

Edit: double posting didn't work, two posts became one. Separating them back again.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Magda

[Magda]

i think i know what you mean.

Yes, you definately do! I feel just the same as you described in your post. But I don't possess as much courage to discard all explanations and rush forward on my own.

 

The thing is, if you rush forward on your own, you aren't doing it on your own no matter what. You use things that you've learnt somewhere to orient yourself and to judge what you're doing. There always are "hidden dogmas" that influence you. That makes me feel that complete dismissal of other "dogmas" is not only unnecessary, but can be harmful. What if your "hidden dogmas" are wrong beyond belief, but you'll stick to them stubbornly and become blind to obvious wrongness? That can't be good.

 

A desire to continuously learn and discover mistakes is needed, I believe.

 

For example, I had a time in my life when I started to have spontaneous "out-of-body experiences", and I had no idea that it was possible. So I assumed scary things about them before discovering that it's okay and no evil entities are doing it. If I did not, then probably I'd go to a doctor or Church, and the whole thinking would be different and the results would be different. Like trying an exorcism in case of Church or praying for evil entities to leave me alone. The change would've been enormous, the whole worldview would've had to be revampled to include religious ideas alien to it, and all that just because of OBEs that did not, in fact, involve any evil entities.

 

Sometimes a wrong conclusion seems the most logical!

 

i might say that the "real thing" comes before the interpretation of it as energy, chakras, etc...

Yes it must be like this... Something that exists independently of the mind that later gives its own various meanings to it. I wish I could experience knowing reality in such a way.

 

however, when it's not the real thing, you're always wondering if you're doing it right. you're always wondering if you'll get the right result.

Oh that's exactly how I feel now It's the thing that slows down practice.

 

You seem to be analysis-oriented when it comes to feelings. What do you think produces the feeling that you described above? My own version is that it's a fear of making things wrong, but not of the process, but of the discovery of your mistake in future. As if such a discovery was emotionally unbearable to conceive of. I'd like to know your version and what you think of mine. Maybe then we could think up a way to trick this feeling together.

[joeblast]

Good post, Steve

[松永道]

Does anybody have an idea how to solve the situation?

 

P.S. And if somebody had or has this very problem I'd be especially grateful to hear from you.

 

Is the same pie different if you slice it into different sizes?

 

---

 

In any case, the Chakras are centered along the Chong Mai (Penetrating Vessel) of Daoist Medicine. Whether or not they where added due to Buddhist influence, who's to say? But the notion is present, as are the right and left channels of Yoga, they just aren't what's emphasized.

 

Filter it through culture. Chinese culture is traditionally conservative, it contains, holds on to - the only culture on earth to build a giant wall to keep what's in, in and what's out, out - as such it makes sense that this culture would emphasize the storage batteries of the body. However, these batteries are cultivated. Everyone has the three 'tian' or fields, but not everyone has the 'dan tian' elixer fields. The elixer is cultivated. The 'tian' field is just where it is cultivated.

 

Imagine three circles:

 

0

0

0

 

Stacked vertically touching one another. Where they touch are the odd chakras. Their centers are the even chakras. They are the three fields. (The upper is the halo typically seen in religious art, the middle halo is also frequently drawn, though more often in Hindu, Tibetan and Buddhist art, the lower, largest field is rarely illustrated.) The Dan elixers are created at the center of these fields. They are not the same as the 2nd, 4th and 6th Chakras, though they do have relation.

 

Chinese medicine operates primarily on the 2nd Chakra, lower Dan Tian frequency.

[bailey]

 

Open your eyes and mind and heart and experience life for what it is. Don't mistake words and images for reality. Words and concepts (like chakrah and dan tian) are not reality, they are a useful tool for approximating and communicating about reality but nothing more than that....

 

xuesheng, hi

 

I enjoyed your whole post very much and especially agree with the above part of it. I think we all sense something greater than what we've been taught to observe, and it's this subtle yet underlying perception that causes not only the drive for individuals to go out and seek in the first place - but it's what causes the creative explanations and dogmas - that try and explain, to get a handle on, and to express what is generally beyond description.

 

Nothing wrong with all that, imo, until people get so hung up on the terms and explanations that the natural perception of the reality is obscured.

[doc benway]

 

Nothing wrong with all that, imo, until people get so hung up on the terms and explanations that the natural perception of the reality is obscured.

I couldn't agree more Bailey - that's where the "lesser" life forms have an advantage. They're (presumably) less distracted by the endless thought machine. Language is a double edged sword, IMO.

[Magda]

Is the same pie different if you slice it into different sizes?

Thank you for your input. It already contradicts the theory I've started to concoct for myself. But yours is good.

 

I couldn't agree more Bailey - that's where the "lesser" life forms have an advantage. They're (presumably) less distracted by the endless thought machine. Language is a double edged sword, IMO.

And I think that endless thought machine, as you call it, is disregarded in vain. Those "lesser forms" who're free of it are considerably worse off then we are, in their "purity" they can't conceive of taking another path or self-change. They're without opportunities.

[erdweir]

I love this topic! I think about it often.

 

I have been doubting the reality of chi for a while, even as my experiences with it become more powerful and interesting. But I am a pragmatist. If chi is a delusion, it's a beneficial one. But I dont think it is a delusion. I have traded energy with other people so i would have to think it's a collective hallucination. perhaps one brought on by chi kung!

 

Even though I accept it, with reservations, the cross cultural differences between their descriptions of the subtle body are puzzling. I can only think that the subtle body is more flexible than the physical one, or that these different systems emphasize different aspects of it.

 

as far as reality goes, before i even started doing any practices, i have had some weird experiences where the world didnt seem "real" to me. It looked like crystalized energy. for the record i was not on drugs. I was in this park and the trees looked like liquid metal moving in slow motion. the sight of a bee landing on a flower made me laugh. "Oh come on", i said "you cant be serious". I realized i was talking to god. I was walking around in this holographic garden looking at these flowers, which seemed very erotic to me but just made out of holographic light, and saying out loud to god" oh you cant be serious, why are you such a pervert" and laughing to myself.

 

I guess this and other experiences have led me to take the consensus reality with a grain of salt. who gave the western scientists the right to dictate the validity of everyone's experiences? why do we go along with it? I think we accept science so readily in part because we have been trained to. and in this sense how different is science from chi kung? sure science has obvious effects and is very powerful, but can you not say the same thing about esoteric practices? and so what if chi doesn't work like an electromagnet in a lab, it's a different realm of experience that science hasn't caught up with yet.

 

actually there is this book called The Field that has some interesting things to say about photon emissions in the body. apparently cancer causing substances block photon emissions of a certain wavelength. these emissions are thought by certain scientists to manage the body's chemical processes. they say that the normal way of accounting for the precise meeting of the required chemical components for protein synthesis in just the right part of the cell at the right time cant be accounted for by the usual explanation, which is that they happen randomly against astronomical odds billions of times a second. at first none of the other scientist would even believe the body was emitting photons, much less regulating it's processes, but it makes sense to me. sometimes believing in chi is actually more reasonable than believing in the absurdly narrow views science can take.

[goldisheavy]

Hello all,

 

I developed a recurring theme in my thoughts that I can't get rid of and it slows me down drastically.

 

That is, the theme of unrealness and trickery.

 

What I mean in general is that there are various religions, traditions, systems, and when I pick one and try to practice, there's this nagging thought that it contradicts others, and hence it might be bollocks. When contradiction is huge it doesn't matter, but it matters when you think of things that are very very alike.

 

For example, chi kung and chinese medicine have no "chakras" that Indians have. Yet it's "the same thing", because it's the same level of "energy". SO HOW COME BODY ENERGY STRUCTURE IS DIFFERENT, how is it possible?!

 

This issue prevents me from believing that there's something "real" behind the whole notion of energy, and I start thinking that chi must be an imaginary concept that somehow works in a way of trickery. That is, you trick yourself that there is something, but in reality you do everything without the help of chi, by something like will-force.

 

That's an unhealthy attitude I realize. Yet I know of no way to get rid of it. I can pretend to believe, but mental pretense is never motivating. Who wants to put effort into a kind of practice that feels imaginary? I certainly want a real thing.

 

Does anybody have an idea how to solve the situation?

 

P.S. And if somebody had or has this very problem I'd be especially grateful to hear from you.

 

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! You there!

 

You have a healthy contemplative mind! Do not abandon it! Do dwell on the nonsense of the traditions! Probe deeper. Don't stop now! It's not unhealthy!

 

You're one of the FEW healthy people. Please continue as you have been. Don't try to change yourself to fit into this or that tradition. They are all baseless.

 

How do you behave with baseless things? It's not that they are "fake". Fake means its intent is to deceive. For example, works of fiction are baseless too, but they don't intend to deceive. The intent is to entertain, so they are good. When phenomena are understood to be baseless, it's not that they are fake! Rather, they are OPEN. So the possibilities are WIDE OPEN. Now you can choose something that's more entertaining, something that leads to a healthier, from your point of view, life, something that you actually enjoy and want to practice... and maybe that something is not any of the traditions you know?

 

The mind has its own structure. That structure, while is dynamic and malleable, is nonetheless not a non-structure. So respect it. Learn what makes you tick. And whether you want to remain the same or want to change who and what you are, respect your current incarnation. It's not all you can be, but it's not fake either. You have good instincts though! Sharp mind! You are not unhealthy by any means. You are healthy.

 

Oh yea, I have the same "problem" as you. Except it's not a problem at all. It's a blessing. You may find it hard to fit in, but the long term bonus of this psychological make up is amazing.

Edited May 4, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Magda]

How do you behave with baseless things? It's not that they are "fake". Fake means its intent is to deceive. For example, works of fiction are baseless too, but they don't intend to deceive. The intent is to entertain, so they are good. When phenomena are understood to be baseless, it's not that they are fake! Rather, they are OPEN. So the possibilities are WIDE OPEN.

What do you mean by "baseless"? Kind of... not explainable?