Dragon Gate aka Longmen Pai Workshop Atlanta GA May 23-25

[宁]

Hi Ken,

 

I've seen on your blog that Wang Liping has a great interest in the Yi Jing / I Ching / The book of changes.

Also I've seen this topic comes often in his courses.

 

Is an essay / article possible in the future, on this topic, either here on the TTB or on your blog?

Although this matter is very interesting to me, there are very fiew reliable sources for it's study...

 

Thanks

 

L1

Edited May 17, 2009 by Little1

[Ken]

Interesting, why the distinction between channels and meridians?

I only heard that it is better to use channels because a meridian is something two dimensional, while channels are three dimensional, but here it seems like they are two different things altogether. Can you elaborate?

 

The way I translate it, Jing Luo=Meridian, and Mai=Channel. It might not be standard translation.

 

They are different concepts that why they need to be distinguished. Jing Luo is like river where it's constantly flowing carrying qi in your body around everyday. Mai is like Lake, it's stagnant and does not flow on its own, you need to cultivate (or open) it in order to make qi moves in there.

 

 

Hi Ken,

 

I've seen on your blog that Wang Liping has a great interest in the Yi Jing / I Ching / The book of changes.

Also I've seen this topic comes often in his courses.

 

Is an essay / article possible in the future, on this topic, either here on the TTB or on your blog?

Although this matter is very interesting to me, there are very fiew reliable sources for it's study...

 

Thanks

 

L1

 

Yijing is the principle behind ancient Chinese civilization. It underpins the entire spectrum of all Chinese Traditions. In a way, Chinese Medicine, Feng Shui, Internal Alchemy and Daoist Magics are all derivatives or applications of Yi. This is not to say that you will know all this just from the book of Yijing, it will be like you are trying to prove the Prime Number Theorem but the only thing you know are natural numbers and nothing in between. So it's no surprise that all Daoists are interested in it. Master Wang doesn't teach yijing in most of his seminars simply because this is a subject as big as the neigong practice he teaches, he might touch on it here and there, but there is simply no time, this is a subject that one can dedicate his entire life to.

 

When people talk about Yijing today, it's more related to using it for prediction, which is one of the more direct and important applciation of Yijing. The reason you can use it to predict things is because, from my own understanding, Yijing is the way to understand the evolving configurations of spacetime and the ten thousands things, for example, when one walks on the street and see a blue car coming from the North and a dog is barking in the East, if the person is skilled in Yi, he can extract from this micoscopic observation to deduce the macroscopic configuration he is in at that moment using Yi and from that he can calculate the next configuration he will be in (Book of Change remember?). To a casual observer, it will be like he is predicting the future.

 

Anyhow, like all Ancient Chinese Technologies, you can't learn from a book and no such book exists anyway. True knownledge is learnt through oral transmission, which include more than the mechanical methods themselves, from skilled Masters. This is not to say that one should not study or read the Yijing, the classic text itself contains invaluable literacy and philosophical values which is again an entire subject on its own.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Ken

[YMWong]

The way I translate it, Jing Luo=Meridian, and Mai=Channel. It might not be standard translation.

 

They are different concepts that why they need to be distinguished. Jing Luo is like river where it's constantly flowing carrying qi in your body around everyday. Mai is like Lake, it's stagnant and does not flow on its own, you need to cultivate (or open) it in order to make qi moves in there.

 

Yes Ken, I think that's the standard translation and while both terms has been used interchangeably at times, they have actually different meanings and different origin/history.

 

The "mai/channel" concept is older and said to be developed by Bian Que, a semi-mithical healer of high antiquity. 'Channels' were discovered by actual practice/test on the human body and the concept is very much linked to the meaming of 'qi/energy' which flows through them. As a matter of fact, there is a direct link in the old bronze characters between the two characters 'qi' and 'mai'.

 

The 'jingluo/meridian' concept is later and said to be derived from Huangdi (the "Yellow" Emperor) and refers more to the complex system of meridians that crosses our body, as in fact the meridians on the earth.

 

I think to get a good feel of the difference one should think about the fact that when the chinese doctor "takes the pulse" and make diagnosis the traditional way, he is "taking the MAI". Again we see the link with the actual 'qi' flow. "Taking the JINGLUO" wouldn't make any sense in this respect.

 

YM

[Ken]

Yes Ken, I think that's the standard translation and while both terms has been used interchangeably at times, they have actually different meanings and different origin/history.

 

The "mai/channel" concept is older and said to be developed by Bian Que, a semi-mithical healer of high antiquity. 'Channels' were discovered by actual practice/test on the human body and the concept is very much linked to the meaming of 'qi/energy' which flows through them. As a matter of fact, there is a direct link in the old bronze characters between the two characters 'qi' and 'mai'.

 

The 'jingluo/meridian' concept is later and said to be derived from Huangdi (the "Yellow" Emperor) and refers more to the complex system of meridians that crosses our body, as in fact the meridians on the earth.

 

I think to get a good feel of the difference one should think about the fact that when the chinese doctor "takes the pulse" and make diagnosis the traditional way, he is "taking the MAI". Again we see the link with the actual 'qi' flow. "Taking the JINGLUO" wouldn't make any sense in this respect.

 

YM

 

Thanks ymwong but i wouldn't say Bian Que is "semi-mythical", he was and is still very real.

[Creation]

The way I translate it, Jing Luo=Meridian, and Mai=Channel. It might not be standard translation.

 

For the record:

 

I have also seen mai = vessel, with both jing = channel and jing = meridian. Mai = vessel seems to be the most consistent with the idea of mai being like lakes or resivoirs.

 

It can be confusing at first, but context usually is sufficient to sort things out.

[YMWong]

Thanks ymwong but i wouldn't say Bian Que is "semi-mythical", he was and is still very real.

 

Yes, he lived during the Warring States around 400-300 BCE.

My reference to his "semi-mythical" status was more about him being the "human with a bird head" that we see on certain tombs carving.

 

Here he is checking a long line of patients

 

 

 

YM

Edited May 18, 2009 by YMWong

[r.w.smith]

Thanks ymwong but i wouldn't say Bian Que is "semi-mythical", he was and is still very real.

 

 

Absolutely Wonderful,Truly Amazing. Thanks so much for sharing about your School & Other Taoist stories Ken. Your input Im sure is Appreciated by many.

 

Regards,

[Taomeow]

The way I translate it, Jing Luo=Meridian, and Mai=Channel. It might not be standard translation.

 

They are different concepts that why they need to be distinguished. Jing Luo is like river where it's constantly flowing carrying qi in your body around everyday. Mai is like Lake, it's stagnant and does not flow on its own, you need to cultivate (or open) it in order to make qi moves in there.

Yijing is the principle behind ancient Chinese civilization. It underpins the entire spectrum of all Chinese Traditions. In a way, Chinese Medicine, Feng Shui, Internal Alchemy and Daoist Magics are all derivatives or applications of Yi. This is not to say that you will know all this just from the book of Yijing, it will be like you are trying to prove the Prime Number Theorem but the only thing you know are natural numbers and nothing in between. So it's no surprise that all Daoists are interested in it. Master Wang doesn't teach yijing in most of his seminars simply because this is a subject as big as the neigong practice he teaches, he might touch on it here and there, but there is simply no time, this is a subject that one can dedicate his entire life to.

 

When people talk about Yijing today, it's more related to using it for prediction, which is one of the more direct and important applciation of Yijing. The reason you can use it to predict things is because, from my own understanding, Yijing is the way to understand the evolving configurations of spacetime and the ten thousands things, for example, when one walks on the street and see a blue car coming from the North and a dog is barking in the East, if the person is skilled in Yi, he can extract from this micoscopic observation to deduce the macroscopic configuration he is in at that moment using Yi and from that he can calculate the next configuration he will be in (Book of Change remember?). To a casual observer, it will be like he is predicting the future.

 

Anyhow, like all Ancient Chinese Technologies, you can't learn from a book and no such book exists anyway. True knownledge is learnt through oral transmission, which include more than the mechanical methods themselves, from skilled Masters. This is not to say that one should not study or read the Yijing, the classic text itself contains invaluable literacy and philosophical values which is again an entire subject on its own.

Very much agree with everything except the oral transmission part -- now don't get me wrong, I am a card-carrying oral transmission aficionado and it's official, but far as the I Ching is concerned --

 

now this is one book you CAN learn from if there ever was one --

 

and it sure can be but was not originally intended to be transmitted orally: it is transmitted visually -- I would say she transmits herself visually (to me this book is not an "it" but a "she," speaking in a female voice, but this is how she speaks to me, not necessarily to everybody) -- have you seen the Circular I Ching? and the "secret sequence?" These are to meditate on, not to talk about.

 

I've a hunch the prerequisite for getting the transmission is to establish a sincere relationship with her, and divination is one good method, though not the only one -- she is, as you have rightfully pointed out, "all" taoist sciences, you can go from any angle at it. But divination, aka awareness of a larger part of space-time configuration than the immediate moment encompasses, is what she's primarily for, no doubt about it. It's what activates her, what causes her to wake up... it's her proprietary stomping ground, she might not wake up for anything less than that, anything other than sincere divination. (Forget "researching" her, it bores her into eternal slumber. ) Once you wake her up, if she's willing to teach you, she will find a way... if not, you won't find a way.

 

Here's a story of one of my earlier, neophyte encounters with her. I had a big problem to solve at that point... the biggest ever. For starters, I tried something I had high hopes for that the I Ching, however, told me wouldn't work. I was bent on trying anyway (by now I know better than to go against her pronouncement, but that was then, I didn't know any better -- I do now!) So... "trying" involved going to another country for a while. It so happened that a friend of mine decided to send me some stuff there and included a book she'd just finished and enjoyed and wanted me to read. I got it out, it was a novel by Douglas Adams (not the Hitchhiker's Guide, something else, forget the name), I decided to take a look at it later, tossed it on my bed and went about my business. When later that day I came back, I saw that the book on my bed was opened to a page that contained an I Ching hexagram (part of the novel's plot, as it transpired), the one I got before my departure -- reiterating exactly the same message I didn't heed the first time. Which by then was still not yet clear to me... so the I Ching went to all this trouble (somehow causing my friend?.. to stumble upon and read the only novel in existence that has this and only this particular one hexagram embedded in the text?.. and to send it to me?.. to randomly open to this particular page and no other, out of hundreds, when I carelessly tossed it on the bed?..)

 

...Needless to say the I Ching was right and what I "tried" wound up not working, just as she said it would. Cost me a lot of trouble and a lot of money too.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Taomeow

[r.w.smith]

"ERROR"

 

I Quoted The Wrong Post Above. I Meant To Quote Kens Post But Accidently Quoted YmWong Instead.

 

Sorry For Any Mix-Up,

 

R.W.Smith.

Edited May 18, 2009 by r.w.smith

[宁]

Thanks Ken

 

Maybe Shen Laoshi would one day see fit to let out some info on Yijing about this subject, on your blog.

Although I never met him, i think he is a passionate researcher...

 

L1

[youzifive]

 

I see this picture, what does it mean?

 

Nobody knows what does it mean?

[Pero]

Thanks Ken and YMWong. Can you give an example of each (channel and meridian) so that the difference would be more clear? Do they have the same locations?

 

And also, is there somewhere we could read more about it (prefferably online haha)?

[youzifive]

http://www.dragongate.dao-de.org/news/news.html

 

http://www.retreat.dao-de.org/

 

A friend of mine passed along this wonderful opportunity. I don't know if I can attend due to work constraints though. If any of you are really good at note taking I would be willing to pay 50% your expenses for a copy of your notes about the training.

 

During the semilar, can we ask Master give Master to give some comments to current Qigong activities? not sure the time will be enough or not?

 

Any suggestions?

[Epicurious]

Edited May 19, 2009 by Epicurious

[gendao]

The second question is easy, according to Longmen Pai's tradition, the following 14 characters summarized all possible qigong practice (proper qiong) in existence :

 

動修經絡立修脈，坐修神意臥修靈。

 

Translation: Moving practice cultivate the Meridians, Standing practice cultivate the Channels, Sitting Practice cultivate the Shen (spirit) and Yi (intention), sleeping practice cultivate the Ling (soul).

Very cool! Do you know why each qigong type cultivates each aspect in particular?

 

And is there a proper order to do these in? For example, open channels first, then meridians, then Shen & Yi, etc?

 

Also, are there ones which cultivate jing more? Or yin or yang qi?

[youzifive]

http://www.dragongate.dao-de.org/news/news.html

 

http://www.retreat.dao-de.org/

 

A friend of mine passed along this wonderful opportunity. I don't know if I can attend due to work constraints though. If any of you are really good at note taking I would be willing to pay 50% your expenses for a copy of your notes about the training.

 

 

Is it the last day for registration? Hope more YUAN-related people will gather there!

[11:33]

Kathy,

 

Wow, what a great opportunity, which I have no idea how I could manage to attend

 

Is something like this going to be offered again at some point, maybe even in New York City or Boston?

 

I can always hope, right?