Vajrasattva/Santiago do you or would you offer a class just on tummo, not KAP etc?

[Thunder_Gooch]

I am interested in a class just on tummo, not really on KAP or other teachings. Would you consider a class on just tummo. Also I am interested if you have any knowledge of any of the other naropan yogas.

 

 

Would anyone else here be interested in such a class?

Edited May 5, 2009 by More_Pie_Guy

[gendao]

[forestofsouls]

Sounds like a recipe for imbalance.

[ralis]

Tummo is just a fragment and if you don't know how to handle it, you will get burnt! I say that in all seriousness! KAP will teach you how to deal with these energies in a safe way.

 

 

ralis

[Vajrasattva]

Sounds like a recipe for imbalance.

 

 

I totally agree. Hence why I am not so "enthralled" to start dicing things into mini courses.

 

I have helped folks in the past before and just showed them pieces and in most cases it doesn't end well.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Thunder_Gooch]

Correct me if wrong but didn't tummo come before KAP?

 

To be honest, no offense intended, I'm really not interested in the whole KAP itself.

[phore]

Correct me if wrong but didn't tummo come before KAP?

 

To be honest, no offense intended, I'm really not interested in the whole KAP itself.

 

It has roots is different systems. If you are going to learn it, you should learn it in the context of that system. Kap is a whole system.

kap uses all 5 elements/7chakras. tummo only uses fire.

You might try tibetan buddhism. its where the word "tummo" comes from. you might be able to find similar practices in other systems as well.

[goldisheavy]

It's probably better to get trained in tummo from Tibetan Buddhists. That's how most people do it. Learning tummo from KAP is not the orthodox way to learn it.

 

On the other hand, if you're open minded enough to go to Vajrasattva for tummo and not to the Tibetan Buddhists, where tummo actually comes from, then why don't you get even more open minded, and realize that you can learn tummo on your own? It's not that hard.

 

But in general, when you're dealing with Gurus and teachers, you're at their mercy. That's how it works. If you don't like it, put your effort into something that's better and make the world and yourself a better place.

Edited May 6, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Inedible]

The Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe has a good introduction to tummo, as it is simplified enough to get you started withouot removing anything essential. You can always add more later on. The first trick is to get the vase breathing going. It gradually develops into the actual tummo.

[Vajrasattva]

Correct me if wrong but didn't tummo come before KAP?

 

To be honest, no offense intended, I'm really not interested in the whole KAP itself.

 

 

Maybe before "KAP" as a "system" But before KUNDALINI??? I don't think so.

 

Tummo comes from Tantric Yogas from India that works directly with Kundalini.

 

The tibetans did not invent Tummo although they use it well.

 

"FIRE" practice is found in almost all alchemical schools.

 

Egypt

Greece

India

Indonesia

Tibet

Native traditions etc

 

It has "its place"

 

and its place is "FIRE"

 

you still have EARTH, WATER, AIR, VOID to deal with as well.

 

My suggestion to you is either you train with me and stop assuming you know everything already or go kiss a Lama's ass for 3 to 5 years and see if they actually teach you.

 

I recommend you read Shou Yu Liang'sbook again it has a good "tummo"

 

& also Lama Yeshe's book.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[Jedi777]

Maybe before "KAP" as a "system" But before KUNDALINI??? I don't think so.

 

Tummo comes from Tantric Yogas from India that works directly with Kundalini.

 

The tibetans did not invent Tummo although they use it well.

 

"FIRE" practice is found in almost all alchemical schools.

 

Egypt

Greece

India

Indonesia

Tibet

Native traditions etc

 

It has "its place"

 

and its place is "FIRE"

 

you still have EARTH, WATER, AIR, VOID to deal with as well.

 

My suggestion to you is either you train with me and stop assuming you know everything already or go kiss a Lama's ass for 3 to 5 years and see if they actually teach you.

 

I recommend you read Shou Yu Liang'sbook again it has a good "tummo"

 

& also Lama Yeshe's book.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

Shou Yu Liang'sbook

Fantastic book

[ralis]

It's probably better to get trained in tummo from Tibetan Buddhists. That's how most people do it. Learning tummo from KAP is not the orthodox way to learn it.

 

On the other hand, if you're open minded enough to go to Vajrasattva for tummo and not to the Tibetan Buddhists, where tummo actually comes from, then why don't you get even more open minded, and realize that you can learn tummo on your own? It's not that hard.

 

But in general, when you're dealing with Gurus and teachers, you're at their mercy. That's how it works. If you don't like it, put your effort into something that's better and make the world and yourself a better place.

 

 

Tummo is still one of the secret teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. Even if one can do the traditional 3 year retreat, there is no guarantee that one will receive Tummo or any other advanced practice.

 

Tibetan Buddhism is not authentic Buddhism, it is Lamaism. You will kiss their asses for ever and not get anywhere (with rare exceptions). For hundreds of years the priesthood in Tibet collected various practices from the greater region and claimed such as their own. They claim the practices come directly from the Buddha realms. Nothing could be further from the truth. I guess that is what you mean by Orthodoxy.

 

As far as learning Tummo on ones own, that would be ill advised. How does one control the intensity of it if it gets out of hand? What if it rises into the upper wind channels and really gets out of control? What about damage to the nervous system and psyche? There is much in the literature about the hazards of such an unbalanced approach.

 

Lama Yeshe was the first Lama to come to the west and promote Tummo. He dropped dead of a massive coronary at his front door. Imbalance of the elements? Too much fire in the physical heart?

 

Mircea Eliade's book on Shamanism provides an overview of where these practices come from. Highly recommended. Also Joseph Campbells works.

 

Read this link for a very sobering well researched paper on Tibetan Buddhism. http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

 

Santiago is right on about how one must approach these gurus. Kissing their their asses for years in the hopes of receiving something. Good luck! For example, I received the Kurukulla empowerment from Lama Gangten Tulku and after the empowerment was over he said we received only part of it. His claim was that the practice works and can't be trusted to just anyone. A 3 year retreat was the absolute minimum to really receive the transmission. That really pissed me off!

 

Santiago knows what he is talking about!

 

ralis

[Upfromtheashes]

Tummo is still one of the secret teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. Even if one can do the traditional 3 year retreat, there is no guarantee that one will receive Tummo or any other advanced practice.

 

Tibetan Buddhism is not authentic Buddhism, it is Lamaism. You will kiss their asses for ever and not get anywhere (with rare exceptions). For hundreds of years the priesthood in Tibet collected various practices from the greater region and claimed such as their own. They claim the practices come directly from the Buddha realms. Nothing could be further from the truth. I guess that is what you mean by Orthodoxy.

 

As far as learning Tummo on ones own, that would be ill advised. How does one control the intensity of it if it gets out of hand? What if it rises into the upper wind channels and really gets out of control? What about damage to the nervous system and psyche? There is much in the literature about the hazards of such an unbalanced approach.

 

Lama Yeshe was the first Lama to come to the west and promote Tummo. He dropped dead of a massive coronary at his front door. Imbalance of the elements? Too much fire in the physical heart?

 

Mircea Eliade's book on Shamanism provides an overview of where these practices come from. Highly recommended. Also Joseph Campbells works.

 

Read this link for a very sobering well researched paper on Tibetan Buddhism. http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

 

Santiago is right on about how one must approach these gurus. Kissing their their asses for years in the hopes of receiving something. Good luck! For example, I received the Kurukulla empowerment from Lama Gangten Tulku and after the empowerment was over he said we received only part of it. His claim was that the practice works and can't be trusted to just anyone. A 3 year retreat was the absolute minimum to really receive the transmission. That really pissed me off!

 

Santiago knows what he is talking about!

 

ralis

 

Hey Santi you know one of the times you sent me energy I was in the middle of a transmission -or a reading/transmission performed by a llama - I was impressed by his knowledge and sincerity and there seemed to be boatloads of information between the lines - although it was basically just an introductory outline to the Bodhisatva path - I was very impressed by the Llamas sincerity and clarity

My best friend from childhood lives at the Red Tara House in Ithaca -

I would be interested to know more information regarding what happens on this path

I definitely felt it was genuine and the llama spoke with true wisdom -

This is my friends path - He is at the beginning but seems very sincere

I spoke with the Lama afterwards - told him I believed his path was a true one and yet I saw other true paths in christianity - martial arts etc

 

In regards to kissing a lamas ass -

Surely the llamas wouldnt hold back information just for personal power trips or games -

Anyway Hoping you can fill in the gaps a bit about the Vajrayana path

Thanks

Ric

 

On another note Santi can one Figure out enough by oneself if they are motivated - Know basic chi gung - yoga - zen meditation - Have good morals - sincerity - - And know how to root themselves? ( Thank You for that)

Edited May 7, 2009 by Upfromtheashes

[Vajrasattva]

Hey Santi you know one of the times you sent me energy I was in the middle of a transmission -or a reading/transmission performed by a llama - I was impressed by his knowledge and sincerity and there seemed to be boatloads of information between the lines - although it was basically just an introductory outline to the Bodhisatva path - I was very impressed by the Llamas sincerity and clarity

My best friend from childhood lives at the Red Tara House in Ithaca -

I would be interested to know more information regarding what happens on this path

I definitely felt it was genuine and the llama spoke with true wisdom -

This is my friends path - He is at the beginning but seems very sincere

I spoke with the Lama afterwards - told him I believed his path was a true one and yet I saw other true paths in christianity - martial arts etc

 

In regards to kissing a lamas ass -

Surely the llamas wouldnt hold back information just for personal power trips or games -

Anyway Hoping you can fill in the gaps a bit about the Vajrayana path

Thanks

Ric

 

On another note Santi can one Figure out enough by oneself if they are motivated - Know basic chi gung - yoga - zen meditation - Have good morals - sincerity - - And know how to root themselves? ( Thank You for that)

 

There are good Lamas there are GREAT LAMAS then there are Shitty Lamas and then there are SITH LORD LIKE lamas....

 

 

Not all Vajrayana is created equal

 

You are welcome my friend for the energy.

 

If on trusts their HEART & CROWN you will find & Get what you are looking for.

 

Peace my brother.

 

Santi

 

 

Tummo is still one of the secret teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. Even if one can do the traditional 3 year retreat, there is no guarantee that one will receive Tummo or any other advanced practice.

 

Tibetan Buddhism is not authentic Buddhism, it is Lamaism. You will kiss their asses for ever and not get anywhere (with rare exceptions). For hundreds of years the priesthood in Tibet collected various practices from the greater region and claimed such as their own. They claim the practices come directly from the Buddha realms. Nothing could be further from the truth. I guess that is what you mean by Orthodoxy.

 

As far as learning Tummo on ones own, that would be ill advised. How does one control the intensity of it if it gets out of hand? What if it rises into the upper wind channels and really gets out of control? What about damage to the nervous system and psyche? There is much in the literature about the hazards of such an unbalanced approach.

 

Lama Yeshe was the first Lama to come to the west and promote Tummo. He dropped dead of a massive coronary at his front door. Imbalance of the elements? Too much fire in the physical heart?

 

Mircea Eliade's book on Shamanism provides an overview of where these practices come from. Highly recommended. Also Joseph Campbells works.

 

Read this link for a very sobering well researched paper on Tibetan Buddhism. http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

 

Santiago is right on about how one must approach these gurus. Kissing their their asses for years in the hopes of receiving something. Good luck! For example, I received the Kurukulla empowerment from Lama Gangten Tulku and after the empowerment was over he said we received only part of it. His claim was that the practice works and can't be trusted to just anyone. A 3 year retreat was the absolute minimum to really receive the transmission. That really pissed me off!

 

Santiago knows what he is talking about!

 

ralis

 

I know EXACTLY what you mean

 

thanks peace to you,

 

Santi

[SimoninTaiwan]

Tummo is still one of the secret teachings in Tibetan Buddhism. Even if one can do the traditional 3 year retreat, there is no guarantee that one will receive Tummo or any other advanced practice.

 

Tibetan Buddhism is not authentic Buddhism, it is Lamaism. You will kiss their asses for ever and not get anywhere (with rare exceptions). For hundreds of years the priesthood in Tibet collected various practices from the greater region and claimed such as their own. They claim the practices come directly from the Buddha realms. Nothing could be further from the truth. I guess that is what you mean by Orthodoxy.

 

As far as learning Tummo on ones own, that would be ill advised. How does one control the intensity of it if it gets out of hand? What if it rises into the upper wind channels and really gets out of control? What about damage to the nervous system and psyche? There is much in the literature about the hazards of such an unbalanced approach.

 

Lama Yeshe was the first Lama to come to the west and promote Tummo. He dropped dead of a massive coronary at his front door. Imbalance of the elements? Too much fire in the physical heart?

 

Mircea Eliade's book on Shamanism provides an overview of where these practices come from. Highly recommended. Also Joseph Campbells works.

 

Read this link for a very sobering well researched paper on Tibetan Buddhism. http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

 

Santiago is right on about how one must approach these gurus. Kissing their their asses for years in the hopes of receiving something. Good luck! For example, I received the Kurukulla empowerment from Lama Gangten Tulku and after the empowerment was over he said we received only part of it. His claim was that the practice works and can't be trusted to just anyone. A 3 year retreat was the absolute minimum to really receive the transmission. That really pissed me off!

 

Santiago knows what he is talking about!

 

ralis

 

Very true as great as the Tibetan traditions are with the many proofs of Jalu, Rainbow body acheivments and many, many amazing practitioners there is also the fact that it can take years and years to get any kind of method to acheive real change. The foundation practices I really do beleive are valuable but this is not 2000 years ago we dont have all day to practice we need potent methods help us advance in the understanding of the energies in our body, and the activities of our mind.

 

For me unless you are very lucky I see it as lots of learning of ritual, how to take care of the shrine, how to do all the little details but when it comes to the meat of the practice, 6 Yogas, Dzogchen, real stuff its sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow in coming.

 

Add to that the gamble of whether the Rinpoche in question is even interested in teaching the higher methods, the sole goal may be to fund the monastery back home.

 

This has all shaped my decisions and pushed me away from trying to find the info in the big 4 traditions of Tibet to finding it elewhere.

[Gerard]

There are good Lamas there are GREAT LAMAS then there are Shitty Lamas and then there are SITH LORD LIKE lamas....

 

Yes POWER. And it is very easy to fall under the spell of the dark side when following the spiritual path.

 

Do you think Buddhas come so easily? Ha. One every 2,500 years.

 

 

Edited:

 

Unless you live in an extremely cold region I don't understand why a Westerner would want to spend the energy to learn tummo. Enlighten me a bit please.

Edited May 7, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[h.uriahr]

Yes POWER. And it is very easy to fall under the spell of the dark side when following the spiritual path.

 

Do you think Buddhas come so easily? Ha. One every 2,500 years.

Edited:

 

Unless you live in an extremely cold region I don't understand why a Westerner would want to spend the energy to learn tummo. Enlighten me a bit please.

The heat is a byproduct and not the real goal. It's a nice practice IMO because you can actually feel it working. The goal however is to clear all imbalances and blockages, raise Kundalini and of course the real end all is to gain enlightenment. I have been told that it can be a bit dangerous but as with everything if you just do it in a sensible manner you will be fine. You probably shouldnt just jump into tummo without a foundation of some other sort of training and your absolute best bet is to go with Santi because he teaches proper grounding first. I've always enjoyed playing with fire, even when getting burned so of course I dont follow my own advice.

[tumoessence]

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche a Dzogchen bonpo lama is teaching a tummo course in the CA Bay area. He just had the third in a four weekend teaching that spans over two years. He seems to be very open with his teachings and fast tracking people into Dzogchen practice, and the whole system. He has some tsa lung practice in books and offers trul khor teachings to anyone interested also. He is young and understands and speaks English very well. Maybe Santiago has some experience with him. I have not had a chance to meet him in person.

Bill

[goldisheavy]

ralis,

 

Generally I agree with what you say in your post. It's good that Vajra shares the practice the way he does. However, as others have pointed out, not all Tibetan Buddhists are bad/greedy. And there is also Bon, which, in my silly opinion, is as good as Buddhism in many ways and maybe even better in some ways.

 

So, what do we do if energies get out of control? Good question. In my opinion one shouldn't do any energy practice until one's contemplation is strong. One should be very sensitive to the relationship between concepts, which govern intent, and manifestations. This sensitivity is what's developed in contemplation. After much reflection the person begins to understand how beliefs and ideas affect manifestation, in what measure, in what time, and in what flavor. And the person also gains a very healthy respect for the unknown and for the wildness of nature. Nature is at once wild and self-possessed/spontaneously disciplined. It's very hard to describe this in one or two sentences. The person has to contemplate a long time to understand the meaning of this.

 

Once one's mind has been made more sensitive and sharpened by contemplation, the person has gained a set of eyes and can from then on see where they are going. And further, some degree of tolerance has been also developed, and then even if something unpredictable happens, it's not the end of the world. There will be forbearance and wisdom to deal with the issue in a creative, fun and constructive way.

 

If someone is a stupid person who can't add 1+1 and who commits elementary logical fallacies left and right, such person should stay away from energy practice. It seems like energy practice is anti-intellectual and that you don't need any reasoning faculties to perform it well. Nothing can be further from the truth. Nature and concepts are one. If you can't deal well with the concepts, you cannot deal well with the nature either.

 

If you listen/read how well-trained farmers talk, even though they had no formal education and even though their practice may look anti-intellectual, their language is simple, but the way they use it is very refined and very precise, and they don't make silly mistakes in logic either.

 

Contemplation is not book study at all. Sometimes I get a feeling that no one really knows what contemplation is, like that people think it means to read a lot of books.

 

We have, naturally, all the wisdom. It's there for anyone who is willing to unearth it. It's like all the strength is there for anyone willing to exercise. It's not a gift from above or from a Guru. Just do calisthenics every day. Humble silly stupid cals that everyone knows about. Do them and you'll get strong. Stupid strong. Contemplate and you'll get very wise. Stupid wise! So wise that you'll be like a retarded idiot because you'll go way beyond the ordinary understanding and conceptions. People need to have faith in their innate omniscience.

 

If you are careful, and if you respect the mysteries, and have a little fire in your belly, so to speak, contemplate, meditate, gently and resolutely move forward and let nothing hold you back. You'll unlock everything and you won't have too many problems with energy getting out of control. With the right attitude self-study is not only safe, but it's infinitely faster and more effective for these reasons:

 

1. It's specific to you.

2. You're not subject to arbitrary whims of the teacher's fancy nor logistical difficulties (like money, travel, time, etc.)

3. It's direct. You go straight to the problem without taking detours and if in retrospect you think you did take a detour, you'll know it was a detour that was specific to you and necessary. On the other hand, a teacher can put you on an irrelevant detour that has nothing to do with your particulars, but has more to do with the particulars of the teacher. At least if you go on a detour, let it be your doing. Take responsibility.

 

But, if you have the wrong attitude, then even if you have the best teacher you will hurt yourself, no doubt about it. So teacher doesn't make a huge difference. A teacher cannot restrain a determined fool. Many people have hurt themselves with great teachers. So how much does having a human teacher matter?

 

Having a teacher can give one a sense of false safety. "My teacher knows what he's doing, I can do no wrong now." But if you're doing things yourself, you know you have to stand on your own two and be more responsible. You won't be having that false sense of safety. You'll know that if you screw up, you can't run to anyone. So you'll be vastly less reckless. Think of the SUV effect. People get into an SUV and feel safer. As a result they drive more recklessly, since they feel shielded. People in unsafe cars drive safer, because they don't have the shields.

Edited May 7, 2009 by goldisheavy

[markern]

ralis,

 

Generally I agree with what you say in your post. It's good that Vajra shares the practice the way he does. However, as others have pointed out, not all Tibetan Buddhists are bad/greedy. And there is also Bon, which, in my silly opinion, is as good as Buddhism in many ways and maybe even better in some ways.

 

So, what do we do if energies get out of control? Good question. In my opinion one shouldn't do any energy practice until one's contemplation is strong. One should be very sensitive to the relationship between concepts, which govern intent, and manifestations. This sensitivity is what's developed in contemplation. After much reflection the person begins to understand how beliefs and ideas affect manifestation, in what measure, in what time, and in what flavor. And the person also gains a very healthy respect for the unknown and for the wildness of nature. Nature is at once wild and self-possessed/spontaneously disciplined. It's very hard to describe this in one or two sentences. The person has to contemplate a long time to understand the meaning of this.

 

Once one's mind has been made more sensitive and sharpened by contemplation, the person has gained a set of eyes and can from then on see where they are going. And further, some degree of tolerance has been also developed, and then even if something unpredictable happens, it's not the end of the world. There will be forbearance and wisdom to deal with the issue in a creative, fun and constructive way.

 

If someone is a stupid person who can't add 1+1 and who commits elementary logical fallacies left and right, such person should stay away from energy practice. It seems like energy practice is anti-intellectual and that you don't need any reasoning faculties to perform it well. Nothing can be further from the truth. Nature and concepts are one. If you can't deal well with the concepts, you cannot deal well with the nature either.

 

If you listen/read how well-trained farmers talk, even though they had no formal education and even though their practice may look anti-intellectual, their language is simple, but the way they use it is very refined and very precise, and they don't make silly mistakes in logic either.

 

Contemplation is not book study at all. Sometimes I get a feeling that no one really knows what contemplation is, like that people think it means to read a lot of books.

 

We have, naturally, all the wisdom. It's there for anyone who is willing to unearth it. It's like all the strength is there for anyone willing to exercise. It's not a gift from above or from a Guru. Just do calisthenics every day. Humble silly stupid cals that everyone knows about. Do them and you'll get strong. Stupid strong. Contemplate and you'll get very wise. Stupid wise! So wise that you'll be like a retarded idiot because you'll go way beyond the ordinary understanding and conceptions. People need to have faith in their innate omniscience.

 

If you are careful, and if you respect the mysteries, and have a little fire in your belly, so to speak, contemplate, meditate, gently and resolutely move forward and let nothing hold you back. You'll unlock everything and you won't have too many problems with energy getting out of control. With the right attitude self-study is not only safe, but it's infinitely faster and more effective for these reasons:

 

1. It's specific to you.

2. You're not subject to arbitrary whims of the teacher's fancy nor logistical difficulties (like money, travel, time, etc.)

3. It's direct. You go straight to the problem without taking detours and if in retrospect you think you did take a detour, you'll know it was a detour that was specific to you and necessary. On the other hand, a teacher can put you on an irrelevant detour that has nothing to do with your particulars, but has more to do with the particulars of the teacher. At least if you go on a detour, let it be your doing. Take responsibility.

 

But, if you have the wrong attitude, then even if you have the best teacher you will hurt yourself, no doubt about it. So teacher doesn't make a huge difference. A teacher cannot restrain a determined fool. Many people have hurt themselves with great teachers. So how much does having a human teacher matter?

 

Having a teacher can give one a sense of false safety. "My teacher knows what he's doing, I can do no wrong now." But if you're doing things yourself, you know you have to stand on your own two and be more responsible. You won't be having that false sense of safety. You'll know that if you screw up, you can't run to anyone. So you'll be vastly less reckless. Think of the SUV effect. People get into an SUV and feel safer. As a result they drive more recklessly, since they feel shielded. People in unsafe cars drive safer, because they don't have the shields.

 

 

Dig your post.

 

Especialy for energy practices but also for wisdom paths I think loving kindness practice is very important because the developed compassion will help you stay focused on the real goal and not energetic experiences or power, or in the case of insight practice al the strange phenomena, energies and beings you might or might not encounter on your way.

[Martial Development]

I once attended a Tai Chi seminar by a man famous for his "empty force" skills. The organizer split it into mini-courses, apparently against the master's wishes. So the master ignored the published schedule.

 

Half the enrollees were interested only in empty force, not in any of the foundational skills. They showed up late, having no interest in the other material. And the master said to them, "Sorry, you missed it."

 

They were pissed! Some didn't even want to stay for the rest of their two-hour "mini-course". Some wanted a refund. I'm not sure whether they deserved one or not.

[goldisheavy]

I once attended a Tai Chi seminar by a man famous for his "empty force" skills. The organizer split it into mini-courses, apparently against the master's wishes. So the master ignored the published schedule.

 

Half the enrollees were interested only in empty force, not in any of the foundational skills. They showed up late, having no interest in the other material. And the master said to them, "Sorry, you missed it."

 

They were pissed! Some didn't even want to stay for the rest of their two-hour "mini-course". Some wanted a refund. I'm not sure whether they deserved one or not.

 

When you go to a teacher, you have to play by the teacher's rules, and there is no reliable way to control teacher's behavior. Going to a teacher is implicitly saying, "I am stupider than you." If someone comes to me saying they are stupider than me, first, I am doubtful I can teach them what I know. To learn what I know you have to be either as smart as I am or smarter, but not stupider. So if someone approaches me for a teaching, right away there is doubt that I can teach that person anything, because I am being implicitly told that the person approaching me is stupider, not as capable, not as observant, lacks the same level of perseverance and so forth.

 

It's kind of ironic that the kind of person who could learn best from a teacher is also the kind that won't go to a teacher. But the kind of person who can be hurt/brainwashed the most by the teacher, is precisely the kind that looks for one. That's how nature works.

 

And we can't blame the teachers for this. Most of the blame goes to the lazy and faithless students. The lazy students who want the wisdom given to them on a silver platter, who want to be spared any danger and any difficulties on the path -- these fools deserve everything they have coming to them.

Edited May 7, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Mal]

[Prince...]

Having a teacher can give one a sense of false safety. "My teacher knows what he's doing, I can do no wrong now." But if you're doing things yourself, you know you have to stand on your own two and be more responsible. You won't be having that false sense of safety. You'll know that if you screw up, you can't run to anyone. So you'll be vastly less reckless. Think of the SUV effect. People get into an SUV and feel safer. As a result they drive more recklessly, since they feel shielded. People in unsafe cars drive safer, because they don't have the shields.

 

Reckless drivers drive recklessly regardless of what vehicle they drive. I think it is important to trust ones' teacher, but in the end the onus is on the student.

 

When you go to a teacher, you have to play by the teacher's rules, and there is no reliable way to control teacher's behavior. Going to a teacher is implicitly saying, "I am stupider than you." If someone comes to me saying they are stupider than me, first, I am doubtful I can teach them what I know. To learn what I know you have to be either as smart as I am or smarter, but not stupider. So if someone approaches me for a teaching, right away there is doubt that I can teach that person anything, because I am being implicitly told that the person approaching me is stupider, not as capable, not as observant, lacks the same level of perseverance and so forth.

 

I'm not understanding what you're trying to get across. Maybe I'm taking things out of context. I am going to work for my church. I have many teachers. I have to shadow ministers. I have to go to school and study with theologians. In a very real sense, I'm saying,"I'm stupider than you," because I have to learn the difference between the Sunday School Christianity that the average Christian believes and my own personal theology based on my own interpretations of the scriptures--unfortunately these tend to be very different and are not taught on Sunday morning. I have to learn Hebrew and Greek--things I don't know right now.

 

Even in the context of cultivating...this is an interest of mine--something I feel is missing from most Christian's spiritual practice. Okay, you guys know what Tummo is and Reiki this and Qigong that are-- where I live, people have never heard of these words, much less know what they are. My cousin saw me reading "Reiki for dummies and asked me if that was the rapper Raekwon's cousin. How can I recommend something to someone without learning them from a teacher, picking their knowledge, and experimenting on my own?

 

I understand some of what you're trying to say, but I remember learning to drive...I had a big safe Lincoln Continental on a back road where there wouldn't be much traffic with my Grandma in the passenger seat. I still nearly drove off the side of the road and almost wrecked her car. It wasn't because I felt safe and drove reckless. It was because I didn't have a clue what the hell I was doing...so she had to teach me and I had to practice.

[goldisheavy]

Reckless drivers drive recklessly regardless of what vehicle they drive. I think it is important to trust ones' teacher, but in the end the onus is on the student.

I'm not understanding what you're trying to get across. Maybe I'm taking things out of context. I am going to work for my church. I have many teachers. I have to shadow ministers. I have to go to school and study with theologians. In a very real sense, I'm saying,"I'm stupider than you," because I have to learn the difference between the Sunday School Christianity that the average Christian believes and my own personal theology based on my own interpretations of the scriptures--unfortunately these tend to be very different and are not taught on Sunday morning. I have to learn Hebrew and Greek--things I don't know right now.

 

Even in the context of cultivating...this is an interest of mine--something I feel is missing from most Christian's spiritual practice. Okay, you guys know what Tummo is and Reiki this and Qigong that are-- where I live, people have never heard of these words, much less know what they are. My cousin saw me reading "Reiki for dummies and asked me if that was the rapper Raekwon's cousin. How can I recommend something to someone without learning them from a teacher, picking their knowledge, and experimenting on my own?

 

I understand some of what you're trying to say, but I remember learning to drive...I had a big safe Lincoln Continental on a back road where there wouldn't be much traffic with my Grandma in the passenger seat. I still nearly drove off the side of the road and almost wrecked her car. It wasn't because I felt safe and drove reckless. It was because I didn't have a clue what the hell I was doing...so she had to teach me and I had to practice.

 

You make a lot of good points. What you're saying just brings nuance to what I am saying, but it doesn't contradict it whatsoever.

 

I'll give you a simple example. Working out. There is a group of people interested in getting fit. They could seek out a gymnastics teacher. Or they can just hit the bar and start learning.

 

 

Did these guys pull their muscles more than they would with a gymnastics teacher? Maybe. I don't know. But I am pretty certain that if they wanted to go through a formal gymnastics system, many of them would lose motivation and never get anywhere. You might need to move across country for a good gym and gymnastics teacher. Pay lots of money. Etc... These obstacles might not be insurmountable, but are they necessary? I say no, they are not. The only necessary obstacle is sweat and tears. Gymnastics teachers are rare, but pull up bars are in ever park. By now many of these self-taught people are masters in their own right.

 

My point is, you cannot afford to wait. You can't just sit there and wait for the stars to align. You have to grab the bull by the horns.

 

Consider this too -- teachers are people too. Just because they have a system that's been passed down for generations, doesn't mean it's a good system. Don't we have many examples of generational nonsense by now? Does anyone still swallow mercury for medicinal purposes? Do you get leeches for headaches? Those systems were indisputable traditions at one time. Just because something is old doesn't mean automatically that it's good or right. It might be. But that's not automatic. You have to be a discerning consumer of tradition unless you just want to get brainwashed.

 

What you are trying to learn is the next step from where you are. Since it starts right where you are, and since one step is not a huge deal, you can make that step by yourself. The only reason a teacher looks so impressive is because they made many of these steps. But if you take it one step at a time, and if you don't allow the perception of someone who's many steps ahead to overwhelm your psyche, you can do it by yourself. It being anything.

 

Fermat was a lawyer by profession. But the world remembers him as one of the greatest mathematicians. There are many more examples.

 

Teachers are not bad or wrong. However, being fixated on a human teacher is bad and wrong. Being fixated on one particular teacher is bad and wrong. Teachers are everywhere. The dog can teach you how to smell. The tree can teach you how to be patient. Clouds can teach you non-attachment. Just open your eyes. Your own body and mind are teachers.

 

Sometimes you get lucky and a good teacher is available. In that case, take advantage of it. But if a good teacher is nowhere near, don't just procrastinate. Don't make up stories of hopelessness and uselessness. Go forward by yourself! That's what I am saying.

 

Did your parents teach you how to see the clouds? They taught you what to call them, but did they teach you how to see them? Did your parents teach you that when a different person's eyes are oriented a certain way, it means the person is looking at you? You just knew that. There is a lot you "just know" like that. Some if it hurts your life. Some helps. And the wisdom to examine it and to find out how to lead a better life is one of the things that you "just know", whether you admit it or not. All it takes is the will to apply it.

 

Many kids say things that are wiser than their age and wiser than their parents. Then the parents and the society un-teaches them that wisdom and instead instills our convention. Sometimes learning from a teacher is a step back. How do you know the teacher knows what he says he knows? Don't you have to know the subject matter yourself to be able to judge what the teacher claims to know?

Edited May 8, 2009 by goldisheavy