Newbie confused by "see and not see"

[zinedine]

Hello all,

 

I as explained in the Lobby am only a few months into my Taoist studies and Qigong practice. One phrase that my teacher uses all the time is "see and don't see". It confuses the heck out of me and when i have asked usually i don't really understand all that much better. I have read Cultivating Stillness.

 

I can't, off the top of my head, provide specific examples, but he uses the phrase very broadly. I was wondering if any of you can shed some light onto what this might mean AND secondly, any great reading that you would recommend for someone new to Taoism.

 

Thanks!

Z

[JEN_A_KINS]

Hello all,

 

I as explained in the Lobby am only a few months into my Taoist studies and Qigong practice. One phrase that my teacher uses all the time is "see and don't see". It confuses the heck out of me and when i have asked usually i don't really understand all that much better. I have read Cultivating Stillness.

 

I can't, off the top of my head, provide specific examples, but he uses the phrase very broadly. I was wondering if any of you can shed some light onto what this might mean AND secondly, any great reading that you would recommend for someone new to Taoism.

 

Thanks!

Z

 

yes, it is quiet confusing...i am new to this myself and i'm having trouble understanding certain concepts too. Like "do by doing nothing"...happens to be what i am stuck on at the moment. These fokes are great and will respond with lots of suggested reading and insight.

[awake]

Well you have to talk to him an dsee waht he means by it, but it probably means soemthing about seeing everything as one thing

 

If so, it is not something you need to worry about understanding. Just quiet your mind. Notice space between thoughts, and begin to transform your awareness to primarily space (stillness)

[三江源]

hi Zinedine.

 

Let it go, and one day it will float toward you.

 

Chase it and it is out of reach and you will over reach, fall in, get wet and cold, and generally waste your time, while it floats away.

 

[CarsonZi]

Cat is right....don't try to understand with the mind. "Mind understanding" is not "Knowing" which is what is really worth striving for IMO. Forget about trying to "understand" and just let go....then the "knowing" will start to appear.

 

Love,

Carson

[goldisheavy]

Hello all,

 

I as explained in the Lobby am only a few months into my Taoist studies and Qigong practice. One phrase that my teacher uses all the time is "see and don't see". It confuses the heck out of me and when i have asked usually i don't really understand all that much better. I have read Cultivating Stillness.

 

I can't, off the top of my head, provide specific examples, but he uses the phrase very broadly. I was wondering if any of you can shed some light onto what this might mean AND secondly, any great reading that you would recommend for someone new to Taoism.

 

Thanks!

Z

 

No problem. First, I will say that telling someone to "see and not see" is not a good way to instruct. So whoever talks in riddles like that is a bad teacher and you should avoid them. But that riddle has a point that can be explained.

 

When we see, there is a very subtle impulse deep in our being to make seeing happen. To sort of bring the vision into your eye or into your being. "To see and not see" means, first, you let the vision spontaneously coalesce as it will, without mentally soliciting it. Secondly, it also means to look at things as if you don't know what you're looking at, to have a fresh perspective. People have mental habits. They look at something and think they know exactly what they are seeing. While this is normal and good for conventional living, in spiritual practice this creates a huge obstacle. So if you see without assuming anything, are you still seeing? How do you know you're seeing anything? So that's another meaning of "see and not see".

 

But, like I said before, avoid any books or teachers that talk like that. They should be able to explain in an easy to understand language what they mean, without any idiotic riddles.

[trailmaker]

No problem. First, I will say that telling someone to "see and not see" is not a good way to instruct. So whoever talks in riddles like that is a bad teacher and you should avoid them. But that riddle has a point that can be explained.

 

When we see, there is a very subtle impulse deep in our being to make seeing happen. To sort of bring the vision into your eye or into your being. "To see and not see" means, first, you let the vision spontaneously coalesce as it will, without mentally soliciting it. Secondly, it also means to look at things as if you don't know what you're looking at, to have a fresh perspective. People have mental habits. They look at something and think they know exactly what they are seeing. While this is normal and good for conventional living, in spiritual practice this creates a huge obstacle. So if you see without assuming anything, are you still seeing? How do you know you're seeing anything? So that's another meaning of "see and not see".

 

But, like I said before, avoid any books or teachers that talk like that. They should be able to explain in an easy to understand language what they mean, without any idiotic riddles.

 

 

absolutely - clean rhetoric essential to good teaching.

 

could say it another way , like 'see and unsee'?

 

esl serious barrier for some teachers, and intended clarity brings confusion.

[zinedine]

Wow! I'm glad that I stumbled across this site. I can "see" a lot of wisdom in the answers that have been given to my post. Thank you all very much. I will take these answers to heart.

[forestofsouls]

Sri Sadhu Om suggests: doing and being.

 

I agree with Cat, though. When I first started reading spiritual things, I saw a lot of contradictions. Over time, I've noticed things become progressively clearer. A simple phrase may have deep layers of meaning that can only unfold over time. One of my favorites is: everything is impermanent.

 

Like "do by doing nothing"

Edited May 8, 2009 by forestofsouls

[erdweir]

I would day your teacher is trying to get you to see beyond the dualities of the mind and it's usual way of perception. Look for a deeper kind of perception to come out of your practice. don't overthink it.

 

if nothing come out of your practice, even if you are being diligent about it, maybe visit some other teachers and see if you can find someone you like better.

 

eastern philosophy is way different from the western version. It doesn't make sense to try to grasp it without practice in meditation. your teacher is speaking in riddles, but that is because they aren't talking to the one sided rational consciousness. try to let go of your prejudices and relax into it

[thelerner]

For the past month or so I've been listening to a guided meditation by Wudang reported from a Chinese master. In the meditation he often repeats 'see and do not see', 'know and do not know'. From a non-intellectual point of listening to it in a deep trance, it feels good, very right.

 

To me it means let go. Set intention in motion and get out of the way.

 

 

Michael

[doc benway]

For the past month or so I've been listening to a guided meditation by Wudang reported from a Chinese master. In the meditation he often repeats 'see and do not see', 'know and do not know'. From a non-intellectual point of listening to it in a deep trance, it feels good, very right.

 

To me it means let go. Set intention in motion and get out of the way.

Michael

That seems to make sense, Michael - Wu Wei - go with rather than against.

This perspective may help with Jen_A_Kins' struggle as well.

 

Another, more concrete, example of seeing without seeing is the quality of awareness/intention we bring to Daoist meditation practice. There is a quality of seeing but it is not vision...

[contrivedname!]

That seems to make sense, Michael - Wu Wei - go with rather than against.

This perspective may help with Jen_A_Kins' struggle as well.

 

Another, more concrete, example of seeing without seeing is the quality of awareness/intention we bring to Daoist meditation practice. There is a quality of seeing but it is not vision...

 

or kind of like the tibetan practice of "hearing" in the bardo (intermediary state) i.e. precieving the the space and energy btwn thoughts (between the "birth" and "death" of thought to thought) and this is more widely applicable than i have just mentioned.

[neidan practitioner]

Hello all,

 

I as explained in the Lobby am only a few months into my Taoist studies and Qigong practice. One phrase that my teacher uses all the time is "see and don't see". It confuses the heck out of me and when i have asked usually i don't really understand all that much better. I have read Cultivating Stillness.

 

I can't, off the top of my head, provide specific examples, but he uses the phrase very broadly. I was wondering if any of you can shed some light onto what this might mean AND secondly, any great reading that you would recommend for someone new to Taoism.

 

Thanks!

Z

 

Hi zinedine,

 

Really, only your teacher knows what they really intend by saying that. They may mean that one should

try to comprehend outside of normal thinking processes and perception, or they may just think

that saying "see and don't see" sounds like a cool Taoist type thing to say and may impress the

students, and may make the students think the teacher has some deep mystical understanding that

the students do not have.

 

Something to consider here, this is an open internet forum, and pretty much anyone can

post here. There is no guarantee that anyone posting here possesses any deeper an understanding

of 'Taoism' than you you do. 'Taoism' is a broad term that includes many different mystical

and religious practices and traditions, and which has also been evolving over time, and it is not one homogenous system or clear cut set of practices. One should take all statements made here,

including my own, with a healthy dose of salt, but you likely already realize that.

 

In my view, those who intellectualize about Taoism, or attempt to explain Taoist concepts and practices

strictly on an intellectual level, and who insist that if something can't be explained in clear cut, linear,

and strictly intellectual terms, it must be nonsense, have clearly missed the boat. Talk is just talk. I am just

talking now. Talk, but do not talk. (Just kidding! ).

 

For a good general overview of the history and various practices and sects of Taoism, see Eva Wong's book

'The Shambhala Guide to Taoism'.

Read, but do not read, Grasshopper.

 

- np -

Edited May 9, 2009 by neidan practitioner

[DaoChild]

See and not see may be a reference to visualization also. E.g. Sight Beyond Sight (You don't physically see images in your eyelids, you see them "somewhere else".)

 

Or it may be a reference to feeling instead of seeing. Sort of like seeing without looking, get an overall feel for whatever the situation / exercise is.

 

Just like Wu-Wei, effortless action. Non-action means not going against what comes without effort or exertion. If you drop your glass and break it, water would tell you "Okay, sweep the pieces and go grab another glass, no time or reason to fret."

Edited May 9, 2009 by DaoChild

[trailmaker]

See and not see may be a reference to visualization also. E.g. Sight Beyond Sight (You don't physically see images in your eyelids, you see them "somewhere else".)

 

Or it may be a reference to feeling instead of seeing. Sort of like seeing without looking, get an overall feel for whatever the situation / exercise is.

 

Just like Wu-Wei, effortless action. Non-action means not going against what comes without effort or exertion. If you drop your glass and break it, water would tell you "Okay, sweep the pieces and go grab another glass, no time or reason to fret."

 

 

a pleasure sifting through all these responses.

 

clarity in dialog is so fine when closing in on...that which cannot be adequately described.

[Lucky7Strikes]

To see and not see...hmm...well that just doesn't mean anything. And my guess is that's why it means a whole lot. Annnnd what I just said also doesn't mean anything. Shoot. .

 

You can look at it from a different angle. You cannot ONLY see because there are things not seen, and you cannot ONLY not see, because things are already/to be seen. But this also doesn't make much sense....

[seadog]

Essentially what your teacher is alluding too by "see and don't see" is the fundemental movement of dao. The fundemental aspect of Dao is simultenous expansion and contraction.

 

Your habitual thinking continually reinforces the world you were taught to percieve as a child.Your teacher in an attempt to place a wedge into that habitual world is confounding your intellect with the preposturous notions of seeing and not seeing.

Why?

Because to have direct revelation of the Dao one must procced past the day to day intellect.

 

The simplest antidote to such a dilema is to relax. When your teacher is speaking just relax.

Relax your mind,give up the need to be right, the need to fully understand, the need for everything to be clarified.

Rather just listen to hers or his voice, and relax in their voice.

Relax your body,when our minds are confronted by challenging ideas we hold tension somewhere in our body

by relaxing the body,we allow the mind to further relax.

Relax your spirit by smiling,this will help you and those around you.

 

And perhaps one day we will all realise without a grain of doubt that seeing and not seeing are wonderfully the same.

Edited May 10, 2009 by seadog