Taoist water meditation

[Teddy]

I practice yiquan loads and loads and loads. My teacher has told me that if you practice a lot of standing, then sitting meditation is not necessary. He says standing gives you all the benefits of meditation and more.

 

Despite this. I sometimes practice sitting meditation. I like it, and have practiced it even before I took up zhan zhuang. I have practiced many varieties from vipassana to guided imagary, zen, and microcosmic orbit...

 

I want to add something to my practice, and I have decided that meditation would be good. The main reason I want to practice this, is to disolve all of the shitty blockages in my mind (even more than zhan zhuang does alone)

 

I am REALLY curious about Bruce Frantzis' system of water meditation. However, I am hesitant to buy the audio course because it is expensive. and at the moment I am short of money. I cant find much info on his system on the web.

 

What I really want to know is... What benefits does it have over for example zen... or Ken Cohen's meditations? Can one learn it from his cds/books. ...and is it worth the price tag.

 

Thankyou for your help

[Creation]

Hi Teddy.

 

As far as "is zhan zhuang alone sufficient" goes, the answer I got from Frantzis' books is if you know what you are doing standing can get you everything on the physical and energetic levels, but if you want to get into the emotional, mental, and spiritual levels you need a sitting practice.

 

The whole deal with inner dissolving seems to be that you develop your ability to feel deeply into and be fully conscious of the physical body, then the energetic body, then the emotional body, etc. and be fully present and bring your full attention to whatever you feel, be it ecstatic, awful, or anywhere in between. Upon doing this blockages automatically dissolve; there is no real doing other than being conscious. So it seems very similar to zen in this way, and even more similar to vipassana, and not so similar to all the visualizations and playing with energy that you find in a lot of Taoist circles. And yet it is different from zen or vipassana, because it is focused on the whole person: you deal with the body, chi, emotions, mind, etc. and these are all emphasized, unlike zen where it is purely mental or vipassana where you are using bodily sensations to get to the mind. I may be way off, so it would be great if people who know more about it than me would chime in .

 

I don't know about shelling out the money for the Tao of Letting Go course (I assume that is what you are referring to). I have not purchased it yet, but it is high on my to-get list when I get some spare cash. I can recommend that you look into the books Relaxing into Your Being and The Great Stillness and the 2 CD set Taoist Breathing for Chi Gung and Meditation from Frantzis' website (can't recommend it enough actually). The books lay out the philosophy of Water Method practice and some preliminary practices to get started on, and the CDs contain GREAT instructions on making breathing into meditation, which Frantzis says is a good thing, along with outer dissolving, to prepare you for inner dissolving. If it resonates with you and you are willing to put in the work go ahead and get the Tao of Letting Go course.

 

So can you learn inner dissolving from the books and CDs alone? I don't know. I am trying to and let me tell you, learning fully present and developing internal awareness is certainly not easy, regardless of how good the books are.

 

I hope this helps. Best of luck with your cultivation.

-Tyler

Edited May 9, 2009 by Creation

[JessOBrien]

Creation spells things out quite well. His breakdown of inner dissolving is on the right course.

 

The metaphor Ice/Water/Space is just a metaphor. You need a lot of inner awareness in order to actually feel this process take place, which is then beyond description.

 

However, getting the sheer awareness you need in order to do this inner work is where the effort lies at first.

 

Standing practices, internal martial arts, chi gung, etc can all help you build up awareness. So they aren't meditation per se, but they give you the raw material that you'll need in order to get anywhere with meditation.

 

For me internal martial arts are a great vehicle for this. Can you stay fully present and aware while performing a Tai chi form? That's a great way to build presence and awareness. Then you apply this awareness to freestyle fighting and sparring to further develop and ingrain your ability to stay present.

 

As Kumar has said many times, the bloodiest and ugliest fights he got into were nothing compared to the horrors he faced when meditating. His Taoist meditation method is about stirring up the garbage within you and cleaning it out. Not covering it up or hiding it. For that reason, it's not an easy path. You have to face what's within you. Using this "water" philosophy of going slow but sure is your only hope, if you run at it full force you'll hit a brick wall. Use slow, methodical steps to dissolve and over time it will happen, and many things will let go without you even noticing.

 

I was there for the recording of Tao of Letting Go. It was a long, intense process of going through each emotion, thought and experience you've ever had and focusing on each one. Not exactly a vacation... Of course, this is what we have to do, ignoring our deepest thoughts and feelings just lets them fester.

 

For me, the internal martial arts method is the best road to get into the meditation work. The aliveness and awareness you develop in the fighting practice are the best friends you'll have on the meditation journey. The fear and ego that come up in sparring are just the beginning of the pollution we all have inside. If you can use IMA to become aware of these things, you'll be getting a head start. Sitting on it's own can sometimes lull you into a sense of passive floating, and although pleasant, it can be a time waster. If the anger and rage is deeply buried you can't work on it. Getting punched in the face really gets the worst emotions riled up and now you can apply your awareness to them.

 

The last few years we've spent working on the Ba Gua as Taoist meditation that Kumar's teacher learned when he was a monk in Sichuan. The method is the same, you use circle walking at high speeds to try and stir up the emotions and thoughts within. You use various awareness practices, focusing on certain energy gates, moving energy through channels, holding arm postures, switching speeds and directions rapidly, even accessing fields and ... "stuff" outside of your own body. A lot of different techniques are used to access whats inside, then Inner Dissolving is used to soften, disperse and generally vacuum up the crap that arises. At the peak of it all you sit and let go for as long as you can handle it. Then back to the walking. It's been a very challenging process. Frustrating at times, and really amazing at others.

 

It's changed my view of martial arts quite a bit. I never wanted to hurt anyone, and I'm never gonna be a UFC champ. But I can use forms, fighting and sitting to investigate myself and have one hell of a good time. That's martial arts to me.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O

[Creation]

Hi Jess.

 

I was hoping you would chime in on this .

 

Sitting on it's own can sometimes lull you into a sense of passive floating, and although pleasant, it can be a time waster. If the anger and rage is deeply buried you can't work on it. Getting punched in the face really gets the worst emotions riled up and now you can apply your awareness to them.

Yeah, that's me. Wasting time pretending I'm meditating, while extraordinary amounts of pain, rage, and frustration stay dormant deep inside. And then when I finally dig some up, I have no idea what to do with it, run away screaming (figuratively, thank God) and can't meditate for days.

 

It really seems as though I won't get far without a teacher.

 

The last few years we've spent working on the Ba Gua as Taoist meditation that Kumar's teacher learned when he was a monk in Sichuan. The method is the same, you use circle walking at high speeds to try and stir up the emotions and thoughts within. You use various awareness practices, focusing on certain energy gates, moving energy through channels, holding arm postures, switching speeds and directions rapidly, even accessing fields and ... "stuff" outside of your own body. A lot of different techniques are used to access whats inside, then Inner Dissolving is used to soften, disperse and generally vacuum up the crap that arises. At the peak of it all you sit and let go for as long as you can handle it. Then back to the walking. It's been a very challenging process. Frustrating at times, and really amazing at others.

This sounds really really great. And this year is the year to learn it, it would seem. The summer retreat looks awesome! $200+ per day is a bit out of my price range though, especially when multiplied by 1 or more weeks, and then accommodations, travel expenses, etc. OTOH, I have plenty of work to do on myself before I presume to ask any master for instruction .

 

Patience, patience, patience.

[Sloppy Zhang]

There have already been some good posts on the topic, so I'll be short.

 

I got, and am working through, Frantzis' "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body." It is very good, the techniques are awesome, I'm going slowly and deliberately through it and only moving on when I really get the steps down (books always say this but who actually follows those directions anyway? ) It is very good. I also got Relaxing Into Your Being and The Great Stillness. The overall techniques taught (from what I've read of them so far) seem to be similar to Energy Gates, but Frantzis goes into some more interesting topics in the latter two, introducing some taoist philosophy and stuff.

 

A lot of Frantzis' techniques seem very Zen. A lot of philosophical stuff can be found in some other related systems. But it is its own system, and I feel that Frantzis teaches one of the most complete methods out there (that I've seen and practiced, anyway). Sure, doing energy work might not necessarily make you a better person (there are plenty of high energy people out there that abuse their energy or wind up hurting themselves or others), but a healthy body is just as important as a healthy mind, and to neglect body development is also no good. Frantzis hits on all the major points, clearing blockages in the body and the mind, all the layers.

 

Hm, that post was a bit longer than I thought it'd be.... but long story short, I do it, it's good, I like it.

 

Oh, and just a little personal anecdote.... was playing a game of basketball a little while ago, it was for a fitness class in school, and I was guarding this dude, who was kind of a jerk. Anyway, when I was guarding him he threw the basketbally deliberately in my face, faking a pass..... it hurt a lot, seeing as how I was literally only about a foot away from him, and I got really pissed. But then I realized I was angry, I realized what it was doing to me, I just became aware of how my body and mind were reacting at that time, and I figured that if it continued I might not come to a very healthy resolution to the situation (well.... maybe not so healthy for the other guy, that is ) Sufficed to say, I let it go and we all walked away (relatively) healthy.

[JessOBrien]

Hi Tyler and Sloppy Zhang,

 

One thing about Kumar's system and probably true of others is that although you need to follow the steps in order to fully develop the material, you still have to take what you can get. So if you learn some aspects out of sequence, that's ok, just work on it for a while, and put it in your storage unit to pull out when you need it later.

 

Jumping ahead can give you a new vision and sense of what you've already done, then when you get back to plowing through the basics you'll have a better sense of things and where you are headed. Plus the inspiration and excitement that comes with seeing how the puzzle fits together. Of course you can't just from step one to step 100 in one day. Realistically, you've got to just take what you can get when you can get it and run with it. Fill in the blanks as best you can, unless you are able to pull of a monastic lifestyle with a dedicated daily teacher who can lead you every step of the way, which of course would be preferred! But I have a feeling few of us are in that position...

 

For that reason I think that any authentic meditation tradition will bring you the same benefits that you'll get from one system or the other. Sitting in Zen will of course benefit and enrich any Taoist meditation you do, and vice versa. People sometimes want to identify with and stay within one system, which makes sense, but if you are too rigid you miss out on great opportunities.

 

I look to Kumar as an example, he trained with whomever he could, whenever he could from Japanese, Indian and Chinese sources. Ultimately they are all tools to transform and recognize our inner self. One is a hammer, one is a screwdriver, etc, but they are working on the same project, us. Martial arts are the same, you don't become Tai Chi, Tai Chi helps to develop you, when you are done with the tool discard it, or save it to use later.

 

Kumar used to do a lot of Zen meditation, and he told me he was doing the Seshin retreats as a teenager. He felt that this really helped him as a meditator in the years to come, not to mention during his fighting years. So to me, no time cultivating is a waste, it's just another building block to something more satisfying later.

 

Well anyways, just a couple of random thoughts from me!

 

Take care,

Jess O