lienshan Posted May 7, 2009 The Guodian version of the Dao De Jing chapter 44 1. name + self = even 2. self + property = an addition 3. gains + offerings = a subtraction 4. exceedingly love necessarily great expenses 5. abundant wealth necessarily many offerings 6. therefore 7. to know when enough isn't a subtraction 8. to know when to stop isn't even 9. however because of to be good at the former 1. ming yu shen shu qin 2. shen yu huo shu duo 3. de yu gui shu bing 4. shen ai bi da fei 5. hou cang bi duo gui 6. gu 7. zhi zu bu ru 8. zhi zhi bu dai 9. ke yi chang jiu (the character gui means offering, but is misread wang meaning disappear by the scholars) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trailmaker Posted May 8, 2009 The Guodian version of the Dao De Jing chapter 44 1. name + self = even 2. self + property = an addition 3. gains + offerings = a subtraction 4. exceedingly love necessarily great expenses 5. abundant wealth necessarily many offerings 6. therefore 7. to know when enough isn't a subtraction 8. to know when to stop isn't even 9. however because of to be good at the former 1. ming yu shen shu qin 2. shen yu huo shu duo 3. de yu gui shu bing 4. shen ai bi da fei 5. hou cang bi duo gui 6. gu 7. zhi zu bu ru 8. zhi zhi bu dai 9. ke yi chang jiu (the character gui means offering, but is misread wang meaning disappear by the scholars) not familiar with that version of the tao te ching, but sounds interesting enough to get a copy and compare with other translations. lao tze as a mathematician? hands down ace at breaking even, while avoiding trivial addition and subtraction (perdition and distraction, ha). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
contrivedname! Posted May 9, 2009 not familiar with that version of the tao te ching, but sounds interesting enough to get a copy and compare with other translations. i am not sure if lienshan has printed his translations to english yet, he changes them a lot; have ya, sir? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted May 9, 2009 (edited) i am not sure if lienshan has printed his translations to english yet, he changes them a lot; have ya, sir? Reading Dao De Jing is to me synonymous with translating Dao De Jing. I have a change of mind every time I read one of the chapters once again. That's why I change my translations a lot and that's why my translations never go into print. Laozi's main target in this chapter is Mozi. The two headlines of the mohist philosophy were "universal love" and "benefit the people". Laozi shows by logic, that the two mohist paroles treated as one parole is a selfcontradiction: 1. Name and Self. One word? Even! 2. Self and Property. One word? Addition! 3. Benefit and Offering. One word? Subtraction! 4. Exceedingly love necessarily great expenses. 5. Abundant wealth necessarily many offerings. 6. Therefore: 7. To know when enough isn't a subtraction. 8. To know when to stop isn't even, but because of to be good at the former. Edited May 9, 2009 by lienshan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted May 9, 2009 (edited) not familiar with that version of the tao te ching, but sounds interesting enough to get a copy and compare with other translations. The Guodian Dao De Jing was buried about 316 BCE and exavacated in 1993. It's the oldest known version written in original bronze characters on bamboo slips. The Guodian chapter 44 is almost like the modern Received version of the chapter, but ... The Received Heshang Gong version of chapter 44 1. ming yu shen shu qin 2. shen yu huo shu duo 3. de yu wang shu bing 4. shen ai bi da fei 5. duo cang bi hou wang 6. 7. zhi zu bu ru 8. zhi zhi bu dai 9. ke yi chang jiu The Guodian version of chapter 44 1. ming yu shen shu qin 2. shen yu huo shu duo 3. de yu 'gui' shu bing 4. shen ai bi da fei 5. hou cang bi duo 'gui' 6. gu 7. zhi zu bu ru 8. zhi zhi bu dai 9. ke yi chang jiu About the differences between the two versions in details: 3. The character wang of the Received version means "death, destroyed, lose, perish". The bronze character 'gui' of the Guodian version looks almost exactly like the character gui meaning "a square basket of bamboo for holding grain used at sacrifices", but without the content (two strokes) of the basket. The upper part of the character is thus similar to the bronze character wang. The chinese (read marxist) scholars have, neglecting the meaning of the lower part of the character, interpreted the whole character as wang, probably peeping the Received version of the character? The lower part of the Guodian character is bei meaning "sea shell; money, currency", and I interprete the character as meaning "offering", peeping the context of the chapter. 5. The characters hou "thick, substantial, greatly" and duo "much, many, more than" are reversed in the Received version, probably because hou wang makes more sense than duo wang? 6. The gu character meaning "therefore" has been dismissed in the Received version. 9. The Guodian jiu character meaning "the former", pointing at the 7th line, has in the Received version been replaced by another jiu character meaning "forever", which influences the meaning of the last three concluding lines. I've made a computer word-by-word translation of the Guodian chapter 44 for you: http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary.pl...%95%B7%E8%88%8A You can copy and paste every single chinese character of the row of characters above into the site below and see, what the original bronze characters looked like ... enjoy http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterA...mologyHome.aspx Edited May 9, 2009 by lienshan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted May 10, 2009 i am not sure if lienshan has printed his translations to english yet, he changes them a lot; have ya, sir? 1. The Name and Itself in one phrase? Near to! 2. Itself and Property in one phrase? Too much! 3. Gain and Offering in one phrase? To throw up! 4. Extreme benevolence necessarily great expenses. 5. Abundant wealth necessarily many offerings. 6. Therefore: 7. Knowledge of enough isn't a disgrace, 8. to know stopping not nearly, 9. however because of to be good at the former. Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) i am not sure if lienshan has printed his translations to english yet, he changes them a lot; have ya, sir? The Name and Itself in one phrase? Near to! Itself and Property in one phrase? Too much! Gain and Offering in one phrase? To throw up! Extreme benevolence necessarily great expenses. Abundant wealth necessarily many offerings. Therefore: Sufficient wisedom isn't insufficient. Resting in wisedom isn't nearly, but because of being good at the former. First now I saw the pointe Edited May 11, 2009 by lienshan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
contrivedname! Posted May 15, 2009 The Name and Itself in one phrase? Near to! Itself and Property in one phrase? Too much! Gain and Offering in one phrase? To throw up! Extreme benevolence necessarily great expenses. Abundant wealth necessarily many offerings. Therefore: Sufficient wisedom isn't insufficient. Resting in wisedom isn't nearly, but because of being good at the former. First now I saw the pointe excellent thank you for the explaination(s) last here i missed the point ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
