Who is trained in Micro Cosmic Orbit?

[Trunk]

excuse me for being a total bonehead, but what is the Lower Jiao?

"Lower jiao" translates as "lower burner", as in lower, middle, and upper burners: the three jiao. In common talk, "lower jiao" just refers to the lower abdomen including physical + energetics.

 

And could you elaborate on the harmonizing you are talking about.

Well, the principles are what I stated earlier (re-stated below). Keep those in mind, and then look for methods that align with those principles. There are lots and lots of methods, in various schools. I talk about some of them at my site, read there, various essays all over the place.

Usually this is done by opening the front channel first and bringing higher energies down into the lower -> as a result the lower fills and harmonizes, then rises in a kind way.

[Birch Tree]

Hi all,

 

Let me preface this by saying that I am still a student of Taoism and am certainly NOT a master by any stretch. This is only my experience and what has worked for me. I do the MCO taught by Master Chunyu Li in Spring Forest Qigong. At first, I found it difficult to move the energy because I was concentrating on moving it too much. Before doing the MCO, I am careful to harmonize my energy and also to make sure the channels in my back are open. Since doing these two things, the waterwheel moves very easily and I have energy continuously going up my back and down by front into my lower dantien simultaneously with each inhale and exhale. I have noticed that my lower dantien gets very warm when I do this. Last night I did something that I usually don't do with the MCO which was call upon my master to guide me through my evening meditation--I ended my MCO meditation early last night because my lower dantien was becoming uncomfortably hot. I took this as a sign that I was doing something right--hopefully that is true. I was careful to ground and harmonize my energy after stopping the MCO and thanked my master for the guidance.

 

Again, this is my own humble experience. I am interested to hear other points of view on the MCO, and of course I wish you well on your own journey.

 

All the best,

 

Birch Tree

[sabretooth]

Is the mco the same as achieving kundalini rising,or is the mco a lesser energetic experience.

 

 

 

 

 

sabretooth.

[Martial Development]

Is the mco the same as achieving kundalini rising,or is the mco a lesser energetic experience.

 

Not the same. A lesser experience.

[Ramon25]

It's the sorts of difficulties that erdweir is mentioning that begs the solution of harmonizing the energy in the lower jiao before raising it. Usually this is done by opening the front channel first and bringing higher energies down into the lower -> as a result the lower fills and harmonizes, then rises in a kind way.

 

~ later edit ~

And the difficulties mentioned are just the beginning with that approach. If you start from the lower and just rise, usually the lower never gets around to being harmonized. Over time this leads to stubborn bound-up tension in the lower jiao, difficult to resolve and a source of all kinds of trouble.

 

 

Hello. I went to your site as per your post and i could not really understand the method you outline for opening the orbit. Do you do it beginning at the crown chackra? After the inner smile? Do you still store it in the navel? If you are doing a cooling reverse flow do you still start in the crown? What is the EXACT order or sequence? Also how would that relate to things like the 6 sounds, fusion of the 5 and so on? I have not started these but will eventually. What is spinal breathing? I did not understand how to HARMONIZE the energy. I have had a kundalini awakening and find the microcosmic orbit to help me quite a bit. I really would like to implement what your talking about but the methods in general make no sense to me. Not that what you said is bad, I just cant seem to get it.

Well sorry for all the questions but im a little desperate, it seems like alot of stuff is going upside down right now in my life, so i am guessing i need to change something. Maybe what you are saying could have something to do with it. Alot of times it seems that spiritual practice is a prerequisite to a harmonious life. It could be that change. If it makes a difference in you response im 19. Also I see you emphasize standing cultivation but I have knee pain and cant do tai chi or even simple qi gong, My knees end up hurting which saddens me. Any suggestions? Thank you very much for any help you or anyone can offer

[Mal]

[Spirit Ape]

Is Mantak Chias MCO the best out there or has he added many mother atribute like opening the 3 dan tians, healing smile, cosmic sounds etc?

 

What would be the correct order of the MCO that is out there today?

 

Ape

[Ramon25]

Hello sorry more questions. Okay So lets say I start with spinal breathing to open the back then do I do the inner smile, from there i go directly to the crown, from the crown I go to the perineum with the heavenly energy, Then starting at the perineum where i left off with the heavenly energy I begin to do the little orbit to balance the lower jiao. once i feel thats been done I begin to focus on the navel then run the circuit from the navel to the perineum up the back across the palate down the front channel, I do this few times. Then I store it in the navel with the regular 36 spirals and 24 spirals.Is this the sequence i would normally use? Sounds like alot I know? So again what do you say about the reverse flow? Dont do it? Also what do everyone think of this microcosmic pendulum link (scroll down)

http://www.thetaobums.com/Yogani-On-Spinal...rbit-t2048.html

 

I am pretty vigilent about not forcing the flow. i listen to the energy and allow it stay in a point as long as it wants. I still cant get it to free flow like a wheel, so ijust take it across the points one by one listening to the energy, when its ready to move then i help it move to the next point. after my Kundalini the only thing that seems to balance me to any appreciable degree is the orbit, so again thansk for any help. i guess i ask so much because it was inproper practices that caused my kundalini awakening, So i have expeirened first hand what improper energy prsctices can do how they can affect your life. Thnaks again really

Edited May 17, 2009 by Ramon25

[宁]

Is Mantak Chias MCO the best out there or has he added many mother atribute like opening the 3 dan tians, healing smile, cosmic sounds etc?

 

What would be the correct order of the MCO that is out there today?

 

Ape

 

It seems that there are two approaches of the matter, Xiao Dao and Da Dao.

Xiao Dao methods acheive results fast, yet they are subscribed to the realm of the impermanent.

Da Dao methods are slow to develop thru hardship, and are subscribed to the realm of complete reality.

 

For instance, Xiao Dao methods of the microcosmic orbit, use direct means to activate and move the energy, you can do as many as thousand loops of the orbit in only one meditation session.

Da Dao methods of the microcosmic use in-direct methods and the energy loops around the body in the same time with the moon phases, the energy activating and moving thru points, following the sequence of the lunar cycle. One lunar cycle = one loop around the body.

 

Xiao Dao methods are usually considered to render minor benefits such as health and well-being.

Da Dao methods are said to render major benefits, culminating with enlightenment.

 

Meanwhile Xiao Dao methods are relatively safe to practice by oneself (you still need some requirements though), the Da Dao methods are not to be practice without the guidance of an advanced practicioner or teacher.

 

Xiao Dao methods and practicioners are usually discredited and even despised by Da Dao practicioners.

Da Dao methods require much more than the will to practice, and are processes that once started, are dangerous to interrupt or temper with.

 

Everyone shoots for the stars, of course, everyone wants the best of any practice.

But I think a practicioner, as an accountant, should make a sincere list of his demands and his possibilities regarding a practice.

 

Some of us want to use the highest technology for the most humble goals.

You don't need a rocket to go to Disneyland. A car or a bike would suffice.

And you can't use a bike if you want to break thru the gravity of the Earth, you need a rocket.

 

Even more so, i think that there is always a matter of destiny, regarding who is to get a grasp of different levels of the practice, AND regarding the results acheived. And it's my personal experience that the harder you try to get it, the longer it will take...

 

 

Choose wisely and in accord to your REAL (not fantasy) goals and REAL (not fantasy) resources.

[Creation]

Hello sorry more questions.

...

Thnaks again really

 

For my hundredth post, I would like to welcome you to thetaobums. It's great to have more people around here who have aroused kundalini, to counterbalance the people like me who just talk about it . But at 16...geez. Talk about growing up fast. I'm 19 like you and I don't think I'm ready. You mention how it brought up tremendous emotional pain very quickly. Yikes... I have quite a bit of emotional pain stored up that I don't really fancy dealing with all at once. OTOH, I suppose I would like to deal with it as quickly as possible .

 

But enough about me. Have you tried any grounding practices? You said you can't do taiji because of bad knees, but could you do some standing in wuji posture? The downward flow of sinking your chi to the earth is really nice, and might be of great help to you. If you can't do standing, perhaps lying on the ground and intend the unclean or excessive energy to go from every part of your body into the earth with each exhale?

 

Regards,

Tyler

[Ramon25]

Yeah thanks for the welcome. I find (grounding) practices can make it worse. I need a powerful spriritual practice because if i do nothing I become really unstable, emotional, I lack the ability to think wisely, If i do the wrong practices it makes me feel not good . But yeah 16 one of the youngest from what I hear, Oh well. I do feel pretty old though especially mentally oh yeah. The best thing for grounding is red meat, very grounding aswell as avoiding excessive sugar, carbs. They are very stimulating of the nervous system. If uyou have emotional pain all i can say is know your motivations, shadow and be honest with yourself. Dont be afraid of pain sometimes we just have to immerse ourselves in it oin order to understand and let go. I am by no stretch enlightened and such. I still have issues and alot of growing to do i just have had a head start. Right now me and my family are having issues and i can act, well, not like a buddah at times but not like asshole either which i would have in the past. But spiritual achievement is not just a one sided worship of positive qualities, negativity can have its place (kali energy). But i would like to exercise more wisdom than i do. Either way its great that you are involved in all this at 19 that is awesome, Good luck with your journey!

[Creation]

Yeah thanks for the welcome. ... Good luck with your journey!

 

Could you describe how grounding practices make it worse? Which ones?

 

Here is something you might find interesting:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=112758

 

It's someone's kundalini story (his started when he was 18) who is now the resident Tao Bums kundalini expert, though he doesn't post much. The thread was originally called "KAP Sucesses", KAP being Kundalini Awakening Process, which is a class he teaches. But the guy who stared it deleted all his posts .

 

Also, check this out:

http://www.thetaobums.com/Dr-Morrisand39s-...mbs--t9719.html

It is the first meditation you learn in KAP.

[Ramon25]

Could you describe how grounding practices make it worse? Which ones?

 

Here is something you might find interesting:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=112758

 

It's someone's kundalini story (his started when he was 18) who is now the resident Tao Bums kundalini expert, though he doesn't post much. The thread was originally called "KAP Sucesses", KAP being Kundalini Awakening Process, which is a class he teaches. But the guy who stared it deleted all his posts .

 

Also, check this out:

http://www.thetaobums.com/Dr-Morrisand39s-...mbs--t9719.html

It is the first meditation you learn in KAP.

 

things like trying to connect my energy with the earth get alot of energy stuck in the head. Actually alot of kundalini aroused people cant do any meditation or basic energy work becuase it blows them through the roof or can cause some really bad distress.I use to in no way be able to lots of energy in the head. I can now because My diet is very grounding, but i need to balance it with spiritual practice or i get way to grounded for a person who has alot of internal spiritual issues to workout. Kundalini is one path, I think it should be approached with caution and understanding of what it is one is going to get into namely "the dark night of the soul" its a reality with kundalini. It can really screw with your life, There is a lady who was pretty useless for 20 years, so think about it. I am not saying its all bad contrary i consider it a gift, just think abut it. Kundalini also puts alot of stress on the physical body some kundalini people claim that it gave them cancer, which could happen because of the extreme stress some people feel and the possible excess of energy screwing with system. So a very healthy approach would have to be taken along with supplements "which i did not do" to safeguard against to huge oxidative stress that can occur. One of the links you sent me seemed like it was yoga. I cant do yoga as yoga can be hard on the lower back with time.

[Creation]

Things like trying to connect my energy with the earth get alot of energy stuck in the head. Actually alot of kundalini aroused people cant do any meditation or basic energy work becuase it blows them through the roof or can cause some really bad distress.

In connecting with the earth, two things can happen: your energy sinks down into the earth and the earth's energy comes up into you. When I recommended grounding, I said "The downward flow of sinking your chi to the earth is really nice", the key words were "downward flow". Can you sink your chi downward into the earth? Or is it that when you do there is always more that shoots back up?

 

Note that if the neck isn't open the energy can't sink down from the head. To open the neck, massage all around the place where the spine meets the skull and make sure your posture is right (head neither suspended above the body, not to the right, left, front, or back, and suspended as though there is a slight upward push from the bottoms of the ears.) I may not have kundalini awakened, but I sure have gotten some energy stuck in my head before .

 

One of the links you sent me seemed like it was yoga. I cant do yoga as yoga can be hard on the lower back with time.

The first link was a description of someone elses experience, and yes he was practicing tantric yoga when he first started awakening his K. What I thought might help you was when he said

Kundalini is only negative when you are not

1) rooted emotional mentally physically & Spiritually

2) Do not do anything to remove blockages or smooth flow of energy.

3) eat a shitty diet

4) Consume Drugs, Smoke or Drink heavily.

5) Do not do Secret Smile.

The second link was instructions for the Secret Smile, since the first link mentioned it. Santiago (Vajrasattva) knows what he is talking about (he has been there and back), so you might want to PM if you ever want advice about dealing with kundalini.

 

Best,

Tyler

[Ramon25]

Well hey i might try to sink my chi. Because I think the earth energy does come back up and fills me up. The secret smile seems like a very interesting practice, thank you for posting it, im gonna try it as a sub for the inner smile before the orbit. Well that is a high criteria for kundalini to be OKAY It is pretty tough to be able to do all of that. not the drinking and smoking or diet but part #1 and #2. He does seem to know what he's talking about. I might PM him and see what he saids, it might be kind of cool talking to someone who has gone through sense its been a while sense I have done that. Thanks alot again for the help appreciate it.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Ramon25

[松永道]

Also Dao Zhen mentiones the False Water Wheel in this post: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=102985

 

I wonder how many methods here in the west(or the east!) who will be categorized as False Water Wheel methods...

 

According to orthodox practice most, if not almost all, MCO (xiao zhou tian) methods in the west are false practices.

 

However, false may not be the best word, because these practices still may have health benefits. More accurately, they are simply different practices.

 

Using the mind, the orbit that can be achieved in a very short period of time. But this is a different practice from the orbit that occurs automatically through filling the Dantian. From my experience, the second "real" MCO practice is much more similar to the Kundalini rising phenomenon - if not the same thing. Energy begins at the base of the spine and, over time through practice, pushes it's way up. Specifically, it needs to build and push through the three gates (sacrum, between the shoulders, and the cerebellum area).

 

So, briefly put, the method prevalent in the west uses the mind and moves a little Qi. The method outlined in Lingbao Bifa, among other classics, is achieved through long term practice and moves a lot of Qi.

[Fire Dragon]

According to orthodox practice most, if not almost all, MCO (xiao zhou tian) methods in the west are false practices.

 

However, false may not be the best word, because these practices still may have health benefits. More accurately, they are simply different practices.

 

Using the mind, the orbit that can be achieved in a very short period of time. But this is a different practice from the orbit that occurs automatically through filling the Dantian. From my experience, the second "real" MCO practice is much more similar to the Kundalini rising phenomenon - if not the same thing. Energy begins at the base of the spine and, over time through practice, pushes it's way up. Specifically, it needs to build and push through the three gates (sacrum, between the shoulders, and the cerebellum area).

 

So, briefly put, the method prevalent in the west uses the mind and moves a little Qi. The method outlined in Lingbao Bifa, among other classics, is achieved through long term practice and moves a lot of Qi.

 

 

 

Hello and thx for that explanation. I have been looking for a such explanation for awhile. I wounder also if the same is true with the tan tien. That there is a feeling of tan-tien or in the tan-tien area that people call tan-tien. And that are a completely different level of opening the dan-tien, which some call the real tan-tien, or more righly which is the right experience to call it tan-tien in the first place.

 

 

F D

[松永道]

Hello and thx for that explanation. I have been looking for a such explanation for awhile. I wounder also if the same is true with the tan tien. That there is a feeling of tan-tien or in the tan-tien area that people call tan-tien. And that are a completely different level of opening the dan-tien, which some call the real tan-tien, or more righly which is the right experience to call it tan-tien in the first place.

F D

 

Yes.

 

Everyone has a Xia Tian, or lower field, but not everyone has a Xia Dan Tian. The Dan, internal elixer, is also created slowly through practice.

 

Another big difference between slow, practiced phenomenon, and quickly appearing mental wind phenomenon is that the practiced phenomenon is accompanied by physical changes. The Lower Dan Tian is an especially physical thing, associated with the center of gravity, the core muscles, kidneys, lower back, and vitality. The ability to contract and store energy in the Lower Dan Tian is necessarily reflected in the body's overall strength and vitality. This is also why cultivators with good waigong tend to progress more quickly in neigong (and vice versa).

 

But again, that's not to discredit "qigong masters" who lack these characteristics. Qi has many qualities and the Qi issued and stored by the Lower Dantian has a different quality than the Qi of the Middle and Upper Dan Tian. But, in Dan Dao practice, the Lower Dan Tian is cultivated first and only once firmly established, used to nourish and practice the Middle and Upper Dan Tian.

 

Proper cultivation of the Lower Dan Tian is relatively slower, safer and more physical. That's not to say it's the only way.

[Ramon25]

Yes.

 

Everyone has a Xia Tian, or lower field, but not everyone has a Xia Dan Tian. The Dan, internal elixer, is also created slowly through practice.

 

Another big difference between slow, practiced phenomenon, and quickly appearing mental wind phenomenon is that the practiced phenomenon is accompanied by physical changes. The Lower Dan Tian is an especially physical thing, associated with the center of gravity, the core muscles, kidneys, lower back, and vitality. The ability to contract and store energy in the Lower Dan Tian is necessarily reflected in the body's overall strength and vitality. This is also why cultivators with good waigong tend to progress more quickly in neigong (and vice versa).

 

But again, that's not to discredit "qigong masters" who lack these characteristics. Qi has many qualities and the Qi issued and stored by the Lower Dantian has a different quality than the Qi of the Middle and Upper Dan Tian. But, in Dan Dao practice, the Lower Dan Tian is cultivated first and only once firmly established, used to nourish and practice the Middle and Upper Dan Tian.

 

Proper cultivation of the Lower Dan Tian is relatively slower, safer and more physical. That's not to say it's the only way.

 

 

How would you cultivate the lower dantien? Then when you did what exactly would be done to use it in nourishing the middle and upper dantiens?

Thanks

[sheng zhen]

More accurately, they are simply different practices.

Yes, but the problems arise when practitioners of false MCO describe it and confuse it with same concepts as the real MCO. So people practice the false MCO for years and years and get nothing but good health. The same good health you would get with any other kind of good meditation.

[宁]

Yes, but the problems arise when practitioners of false MCO describe it and confuse it with same concepts as the real MCO. So people practice the false MCO for years and years and get nothing but good health. The same good health you would get with any other kind of good meditation.

It all depends on what the practicioner want... Not all of them want the same thing.

Another thing is this: the so called false MCO starts more mentally, but gradually becomes more and more real, as the qi of the practicioners develops in time. The higher stages and formulas of the practice circulate a different type of qi than the first stages. In time, it becomes more and more massive, consistent, powerful.

Just because a practicioner doesn't know the way it's done, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Dedication study merits faith and consistent practice... For each and everyone, I think the great Dao laid out a path... it starts right under our feet. It depends if you want to complete it or not.

Sometimes some of us have the luck of getting it on a silver platter.

I'm not that kind of lucky man.

My practice and my study it's more detectivistic in nature Step by step, if you have patience, all you need to know will come to light.

Dubt rarely helped anyone.

 

Good luck

 

L1

[YMWong]

It all depends on what the practicioner want... Not all of them want the same thing.

Another thing is this: the so called false MCO starts more mentally, but gradually becomes more and more real, as the qi of the practicioners develops in time. The higher stages and formulas of the practice circulate a different type of qi than the first stages. In time, it becomes more and more massive, consistent, powerful.

 

No, that's not the case.

 

"Imaginary methods brings imaginary results" we say. False 'qi flow' is very common it seems and that depends on the fact that the pratictioner did not receive proper teaching/transmission.

The deeper one gets into that path, the further he/she gets from reality so - yes - SENSATIONS become stronger but they are - again - generated by the mind. The mind is, of course, a strange place to be so I understand that they can bring some kind of 'health' or 'happiness'.

But that has nothing to do with proper practice.

If 'qi' is not properly generated and collected there is nothing to work on, nothing to make "become massive or powerful" I am afraid.

 

Proper training brings changes that are perfectly visible and touchable. For somebody with the proper experience they are visible to the eye, if one has less experience touching is necessary.

But those changes are REAL, very very obvious like the difference between a flat tire and one properly inflated.

Touch the belly of somebody whose dantian is filled up and you'll know, touch that of somebody who can free/disengage it and you'll be surprise (get ready to fall on the floor).

Than try to do the same to any of those who 'imagine' things and we THEN can talk the same language.

 

'Imagination' has its space in proper Daoist practice but that is used only after some hard work is done and certain things have been properly achieved.

 

YM

[宁]

No, that's not the case.

 

"Imaginary methods brings imaginary results" we say. False 'qi flow' is very common it seems and that depends on the fact that the pratictioner did not receive proper teaching/transmission.

The deeper one gets into that path, the further he/she gets from reality so - yes - SENSATIONS become stronger but they are - again - generated by the mind. The mind is, of course, a strange place to be so I understand that they can bring some kind of 'health' or 'happiness'.

But that has nothing to do with proper practice.

If 'qi' is not properly generated and collected there is nothing to work on, nothing to make "become massive or powerful" I am afraid.

 

Proper training brings changes that are perfectly visible and touchable. For somebody with the proper experience they are visible to the eye, if one has less experience touching is necessary.

But those changes are REAL, very very obvious like the difference between a flat tire and one properly inflated.

Touch the belly of somebody whose dantian is filled up and you'll know, touch that of somebody who can free/disengage it and you'll be surprise (get ready to fall on the floor).

Than try to do the same to any of those who 'imagine' things and we THEN can talk the same language.

 

'Imagination' has its space in proper Daoist practice but that is used only after some hard work is done and certain things have been properly achieved.

 

YM

 

 

Oh I belive you.

Yet the world is larger than this...

 

My experience, and what I've seen from my fellow practicioners have convinced me that there are more than one way to get things done.

Many experiences, direct testing, blind testing and double blind testing, confirmed, at least to me, that these "lesser methods" are really efective.

And I mean Inter-Personal experimenting = not sitting by yourself and imagining things...

 

I think much depends on what you allow yourself to experience.

If you start by saying:

"This will never happen to me, for such and such reason" you are right.

To me, it's much better to say:

"These things haven't been Completely mapped out by anyone, no matter how wise or enlightened. The world is still a mistery, and everyone has a path in front of him/her. So let's see what this path, that is before me, would unfold".

 

But this is a matter of personal predilection.

I'm sure that whatever one thinks, he's right either way.

 

 

Of course it's better to have the best, in eveything you can.

Yet it's natural to make the best of what life puts ahead of you.

Remember, club 99

 

 

Of course I like what I hear about your experiences, and hope that one day my path will take me to experience that also

[Ramon25]

What happend to "where the mind goes chi follows"? The mind does it all and is everything.

[Fire Dragon]

Yes.

 

Everyone has a Xia Tian, or lower field, but not everyone has a Xia Dan Tian. The Dan, internal elixer, is also created slowly through practice.

 

Another big difference between slow, practiced phenomenon, and quickly appearing mental wind phenomenon is that the practiced phenomenon is accompanied by physical changes. The Lower Dan Tian is an especially physical thing, associated with the center of gravity, the core muscles, kidneys, lower back, and vitality. The ability to contract and store energy in the Lower Dan Tian is necessarily reflected in the body's overall strength and vitality. This is also why cultivators with good waigong tend to progress more quickly in neigong (and vice versa).

 

But again, that's not to discredit "qigong masters" who lack these characteristics. Qi has many qualities and the Qi issued and stored by the Lower Dantian has a different quality than the Qi of the Middle and Upper Dan Tian. But, in Dan Dao practice, the Lower Dan Tian is cultivated first and only once firmly established, used to nourish and practice the Middle and Upper Dan Tian.

 

Proper cultivation of the Lower Dan Tian is relatively slower, safer and more physical. That's not to say it's the only way.

 

 

Thx again for your further explanation. They are much apreachiated by me.

 

 

F D

 

 

How come there is this mirror betwean for example:

 

the xia dan tien and the dan tien

The mco and the false mco

 

And I assume many more of them.

 

It would be easy to just interpret the difference as levels of achievements in your practise. Or that there exists some energy patterns common to all of us, but we have the ability to develope every aspect of it to a higher level of to higher levels.

 

 

F D