Summary of jing->qi->shen - Is this correct?

[Bindi]

I was reading An Introduction to the Philosophy and Religion of Taoism

by Jeaneane D. Fowler.

 

She writes that when coarse jing has been transmuted into subtle jing in the LDT, it is passed up to the MDT to aid in the transmutation of coarse qi into subtle qi there, which in turn is passed up to the UDT where both subtle jing and subtle qi aid in the transmutation of coarse shen into subtle shen.

 

After this the “subtle states of all Three Treasures merge as one.”

 

This results in shen that is pure yang, and is transmuted into Void, and it is at this point that the Spirit Embryo is created.

 

I would appreciate some feedback regarding the validity of her statements (which I have summarised).

Edited December 19, 2015 by Bindi

[Aeran]

My impression is that every different school has a different approach and even further differing terminology (often confused because they'll use the same set of terms, but have them refer to different things). As such, it's pretty hard to assess the validity of these statements except within the context of a specific school of thought. That description might match perfectly to one school, while another school might follow the exact same methodology but use different terminology, and another school still might use different terminology and methodology both and still be equally legitimate (or they might not be - plenty of dodgy systems and teachers out there).

Edited December 19, 2015 by Aeran

[Taoist Texts]

I was reading An Introduction to the Philosophy and Religion of Taoism

by Jeaneane D. Fowler.

 

She writes that when coarse jing has been transmuted into subtle jing in the LDT, it is passed up to the MDT to aid in the transmutation of coarse qi into subtle qi there, which in turn is passed up to the UDT where both subtle jing and subtle qi aid in the transmutation of coarse shen into subtle shen.

 

After this the “subtle states of all Three Treasures merge as one.”

 

This results in shen that is pure yang, and is transmuted into Void, and it is at this point that the Spirit Embryo is created.

The bolded is signally wrong. The rest is just some keywords strung together.

[Apech]

There are better books on this subject I suspect (I haven't read that one).

[Bindi]

There are better books on this subject I suspect (I haven't read that one).

 

Any chance you could suggest a good one (or two)?

 

After a year on the fringes of Daoism and TDB, I find that I am finally familiar enough with Daoist terminology to take on a whole book 

Edited December 19, 2015 by Bindi

[Apech]

 

Any chance you could suggest a good one (or two)?

 

After a year on the fringes of Daoism and TDB, I find that I am finally familiar enough with Daoist terminology to take on a whole book 

 

 

I'm sure there are better people to advise but the books I have found useful are:

 

Eva Wong - Shambala Guide to Taoism

Louis Komjathy Daoism a Guide for Perplexed (treat with care)

Daoist Nei Ging Damo Mitchell

White Moon on Mountain Peak Damo Mitchell

Foundations of Internal Alchemy Wang Mu - Golden Elixir Press

Scholar Warrior Deng Ming Dao

Various books by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"This results in shen that is pure yang, and is transmuted into Void, and it is at this point that the Spirit Embryo is created."

-----

 

Book is crazy.

 

Here are same ideas, but I try to explain in more western and simpler terms:

 

"Pure yang" has no vibration, so cannot move or change.

 

In this context, "pure" means Infinite, and Yang means Expansion.

 

"Transmuted into Void" means the same thing.

 

It means the wave (vibration) has become so fast that its amplitude and period are Zero.

 

Which means becoming "non-physical" and "non-polarized".

 

The "Spirit Embryo" is the consolidation of human Consciousness.

 

It is what will survive death of the physical body.

 

The physical body is developing this "Consciousness" same way as the placenta is making the physical body in the womb.

 

Death is the birth of this Consciousness as an entity in the Spirit Realm.

 

It is the transition from this half-light/half-dark Air Realm to the all-light Spirit Realm.

 

It is the other half of our transition from the all-dark Water Realm of the womb to the Half-light/half-dark Air Realm.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[silent thunder]

Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu: Master Wang Liping translated: Richard Liao

Solid stuff

[shanlung]

Just note that Deng Ming Dao is a plagiariser mixing fiction from B grade pulp fiction and stuff he stole from other writers with his own rubbish and getting people money in fists begging to reward him., especially his trash book Scholar Warrior.

Might as well set up an account for Madoff so folks can give Madoff money instead of to Deng Ming Dao.

 

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/27637-deng-blofield-works-is-it-ethical/  spelled out the details.

Edited December 19, 2015 by shanlung

[Apech]

Just note that Deng Ming Dao is a plagiariser mixing fiction from B grade pulp fiction and stuff he stole from other writers with his own rubbish and getting people money in fists begging to reward him., especially his trash book Scholar Warrior.

Might as well set up an account for Madoff so folks can give Madoff money instead of to Deng Ming Dao.

 

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/27637-deng-blofield-works-is-it-ethical/  spelled out the details.

 

 

OK I read it a while ago and will take note of your comments.

[Aetherous]

The bolded is signally wrong.

 

How so?

[Daeluin]

Part of me feels that the idea this can be understood in an easy linear fashion would miss the mark. Naturally it is simple, but simple enough to frame in words? Perhaps it is my own lack of realization that causes me to hesitate to embrace the conventional jing-qi-shen-void concept. Also, ling seems to be a vital component in the merging of these "treasures," that is often not mentioned.

 

So perhaps I will only bring more confusion. Yet I would like to share this excerpt from Liu Yiming, translated in Fabrizio Pregadio's Cultivating the Tao:

 

 

Precelestial Breath of True Unity

 

Yuandu zi (Zhao Youqin) said:

 

The precelestial Breath comes from within Empty Non-Being.

 

The Wuzhen pian (Awakening to Reality) says:

 

The Tao from Empty Non-Being generates the One Breath,

then from the One Breath gives birth to Yin and Yang.

 

Xue Daoguang said:

 

There is something before heaven and Earth,

it has no name and is fundamentally silent and still.

It is capable of ruling over the ten thousand images,

and does not decay along the course of the four seasons.

 

All these passages say that the precelestial Breath is the Ancestral Breath that generates all things. It comes from within Empty Non-Being; it is the ruler of the ten thousand images and the patriarch of Heaven and Earth; it has no form and no image; and it is soundless and scentless. "Watching, you do not see it; listening, you do not hear it; grasping, you do not get it." However, although it is devoid of form it can generate forms, and although it is devoid of image it can generate images.

 

With regard to its Spirit, it is "the Spirit that is not spirit"; with regard to its Breath, it is the Breath of True Unity; with reagard to its Essence, it is the Essence of True Unity. It is also called True Seed, Golden Elixir, and "method of not dying of the other house." It cannot be compared to the postcelestial breath of inspiration and expiration, the thinking spirit, and the essence of the intercourse; and it also cannot be equated to the Original Essence (yuanjing), the Original Breath (yuanqi), and the Original Spirit (yuanshen).

 

Original Essence, Original Breath, and Original Spirit are Yang in the postecelestial, but are Yin in the precelestial. They are different from the precelestial Breath of True Unity, which is indestructible for ten thousand kalpas, transcends all things, and is "the only Honored One." Neither life nor death adhere to it, neither Being nor Non-Being are established in it. This Breath is the root of the postcelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit, and the ruler of the precelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit. It is something of the nature of utmost Yang, the Treasure of Heaven. Those who comprehend it are few.

 

It has neither an inside nor an outside; it does not sink into the five aggregates and the eight consciousnesses; it is not in the five viscera and the six receptacles; it is not in the six sense organs and the gatekeeper; and it is not in the hundred bones and the cavities and the openings of the body. It is in the One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier. If you search it with intention, you become attached to phenomenal appearances; if you guard it without intention, you become attached to emptiness. You cannot attain it by means of thought, and you cannot discuss it.

[Taoist Texts]

How so?

 

This results in shen that is pure yang, and is transmuted into Void, and it is at this point that the Spirit Embryo is created.

The void is the terminal achievement of the process, happening at the end of the Nine Years. The Embryo is happening at the end of the  10 Months. The author is confused about the stages.

 

 

The Embryo of Sainthood (shengtai )

In one of the poems quoted above, Awakening to Reality says: When the three families see one another, the Infant coalesces. The Infant is the One holding True Breath; in ten months the embryo is complete — this is the foundation for entering sainthood.

 

“Refining Spirit to return to Emptiness” is the highest ideal of the al‐ chemical doctrines. This stage is also called Higher Barrier (shangguan) and Barrier of the Nine Years (jiunian guan). 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/files/Wang_Mu_Foundations_of_Internal_Alchemy_SAMPLE.pdf

[Bindi]

The void is the terminal achievement of the process, happening at the end of the Nine Years. The Embryo is happening at the end of the  10 Months. The author is confused about the stages.

 

I understand from this that after the transmuted jing, qi and shen merge, the Spirit Embryo is then formed, and it is instead these merged energies circulating that then nourish the Embryo?

 

And the matured Embryo is then 'born' into the void?

[Taoist Texts]

I understand from this that after the transmuted jing, qi and shen merge, the Spirit Embryo is then formed, and it is instead these merged energies circulating that then nourish the Embryo?

Well, this is a good question, but unfortunately a truthful answer to it is going to be unavoidably complex.

The alchemy uses 3 main models for the same process of the great work:

1. Qi: jing-qi-shen-void

2. Pharmaceutical: small medicine-great medicine

3. Reproductive: inception-pregnancy-breastfeeding-maturity

While people do try to correlate them, it can cause confusion so at first it is better to try and understand these separately.

The embryo is a notion from #3 and does not strictly speaking belong to #1. Now, since you are interested in the qi-based model (#1), in it, the three energies do not merge or nourish, but rather a lower energy is suppose to transmute completely into a higher one without nothing left at the lower plane. The jing is completely refined into qi, the qi is fully reworked into shen, and the shen 100% changes into the Yang Shen body to become one with the Emptiness.

And the matured Embryo is then 'born' into the void?

Yes you can say that.

 

 

In his Sizhu Wuzhen pian (Four Commentaries to Awakening to Reality), Fu Jinquan (1765–1844) says:

 

In the alchemical texts there are subtle words, plain words, clear words, allusive words, metaphoric words, murky words, as well as circuitous and cunning words. There are doctrines on the Elixir, and there are oral instructions. It is as if a divine dragon first hides itself and then emerges, only to vanish and become invisible again, leaving a scale on the eastern road, and a claw on the western road. This requires much attention from the reader. 

 

 

Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of NeidanPaperback – March 5, 2011

by Wang Mu (Author), Fabrizio Pregadio  (Translator)

 

Highly recommended.

[Bindi]

 

Well, this is a good question, but unfortunately a truthful answer to it is going to be unavoidably complex.

The alchemy uses 3 main models for the same process of the great work:

1. Qi: jing-qi-shen-void

2. Pharmaceutical: small medicine-great medicine

3. Reproductive: inception-pregnancy-breastfeeding-maturity

While people do try to correlate them, it can cause confusion so at first it is better to try and understand these separately.

The embryo is a notion from #3 and does not strictly speaking belong to #1. Now, since you are interested in the qi-based model (#1), in it, the three energies do not merge or nourish, but rather a lower energy is suppose to transmute completely into a higher one without nothing left at the lower plane. The jing is completely refined into qi, the qi is fully reworked into shen, and the shen 100% changes into the Yang Shen body to become one with the Emptiness.

Yes you can say that.

 

 

 

Thankyou for your helpful response Taoist Text. 

 

To clarify for myself, are you referring to the Yang Shen body as somewhat the equivalent to the Spiritual Embryo? 

 

And what shen then flows through the 3 Dan Tians?

 

In his Sizhu Wuzhen pian (Four Commentaries to Awakening to Reality), Fu Jinquan (1765–1844) says:

 

In the alchemical texts there are subtle words, plain words, clear words, allusive words, metaphoric words, murky words, as well as circuitous and cunning words. There are doctrines on the Elixir, and there are oral instructions. It is as if a divine dragon first hides itself and then emerges, only to vanish and become invisible again, leaving a scale on the eastern road, and a claw on the western road. This requires much attention from the reader.

 

This seems so true, I do believe that Neidan holds the truth, but that truth can be very well hidden indeed.

[exorcist_1699]

It is strange that although the quoted author is a lady , she  doesn't know that the starting points  of male and female's in Taoist alchemy  ( as long as what is talked about is  jing => qi => shen , then we are in  the arena of alchemy , not ordinary medical qigong  area ) are different . Women should  start from their  MDT, not LDT .

 

In fact, even in medical qigong, women are not suggested to start from the LDT .

 

We can say that  men's practice  starts from and follows the Du channel ( 督脉) , women's practice  starts on  the Ren channel (任脉)  , at least at the initial stage . 

Edited December 20, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

 

Thankyou for your helpful response Taoist Text. 

Anytime;)

To clarify for myself, are you referring to the Yang Shen body as somewhat the equivalent to the Spiritual Embryo? 

Yes. The yang shen body is what the spiritual embryo becomes when he is born and grows up.

 

And what shen then flows through the 3 Dan Tians?

To quote from the above:

 

 

 

Returning to Emptiness. When the Zhong-Lü alchemical tradition explains “refining Spirit to return to Emptiness,” it builds in the first place on the foundation of “refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit.”

 

One should move the Infant from the lower to the middle Cinnabar Field, where it is further refined and nourished.

Then the Infant is moved from the middle to the upper Cinnabar Field; this is called “moving the embryo” (yitai).

Finally one obtains the Yang Spirit, which exits from the Gate of Heaven (tianmen); this is called “delivery of the embryo” (chutai), and is also called “nourishing warmly” (wenyang).

This is not mentioned in any of Zhang Boduan’s works.

Yang Spirit=Yang Shen body

[Bindi]

Trying to understand more about what is meant by the term 'yang shen body' or 'yang spirit':

 

As the adept progresses in his or her alchemical practice, cleansing impurities and actualizing more subtle layers of being, he or she becomes more “divine” in nature. As one progresses in the process of alchemical transformation, a subtle body forms, which can transcend materiality, and physical mortality. “The unified numen is real, the four elements (sida) of body are false” (Jinguan yusuo jue, DZ 1156, 3a). This is the Yang-spirit*, or spirit of pure yang, and the yang spirit is not an ontological given. While it may be latent in every human being, it requires intensive and dedicated training to “create” such a transcendent or Immortal spirit.

*The “yang spirit” is a spirit of pure yang, wherein all yin qualities, here connoting negative and impure aspects of being (e.g., intellectual and emotional turmoil, desire-based living, materialistic concerns, and so forth), have been refined and transformed.

Page 219 Cultivating Perfection: Mysticism and Self-transformation in Early Quanzhen Daoism by Louis Komjathy

[voidisyinyang]

Trying to understand more about what is meant by the term 'yang shen body' or 'yang spirit':

 

Yang shen is actually a spacetime transformation of a black hole into a white hole.

 

Think of gamma radiation - you resonate gamma radiation and it creates physical matter.

 

The zero-point energy is creating "virtual photons" all the time - these virtual photons are black hole photons.

 

But the gamma radiation as virtual photons can be "captured" as information within this spacetime - you are turning the black hole into a white hole.

 

Since that radiation is now captured (through meditation) it then actually creates new matter as new atoms - it goes from infinite frequency as energy and zero time - into a slower frequency with actual time - which is to say it has a finite momentum with actual wavelength - it is in other words "matter."

 

That energy comes from pure information of your soul - and so the deepest level of information of our soul creates a perfect new body as our perfect physical body when our "yuan jing" energy was completely purified during celibacy and the growth of our physical bodies.

 

That process can create multiple "yang shen" bodies - but the final process is to return back to the original black hole source of the energy which is just stored up potential virtual photon energy. It will transform again in a different spacetime.

 

that's why people can have visions of the future - because our current physical body is actually a deep holographic projection of infinite energy and zero time - anything existing in 3D spacetime is just a temporary manifestation of the infinite potential energy.

 

So in relativistic terms - the yang shen bodies are then slight alterations of 3D spacetime - witnessed by different people in different locations, etc. but all of our 3D spacetime experiences are manifestations of this impersonal infinite potential energy in zero time - called "Yuan Qi" since we can not see this energy and it is formless.

 

You can study the final chapter of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality for more details.

Edited December 23, 2015 by conspirachi