Shiv Tandav

[3bob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlgeLuaN61E

Edited February 17, 2013 by 3bob

[RongzomFan]

Until recently, these dances were done only by sacred prostitutes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_wGEjz_Qh4

[3bob]

"The Gods and the Goddesses, being dancers themselves, have been passing the art of the heavenly dance through many other human channels, whose aptitude, understanding, and personal idiosyncrasies naturally varied from person to person, and created a number of styles ranging from Odissi to Bharatanatyam. Classical Indian dance of Bharatanatyam has been undergoing a lot of change over the centuries. It used to be and is still mostly performed by women dancers. Centuries ago the Hindu temples in South India had dancers-priestesses called devadasis who would sing, dance Dasi Attam (old version of classical Indian dance), play many musical instruments. They were well-versed in Sanskrit and other languages as they had to adapt compositions to suit the audience. The devadasi tradition gradually degraded. Initially, devadasis lead a very strict and celibate life and were not allowed to have a family. As the dance entered the royal courts, the dancers were called Rajanartakis, who performed in the royal courts and gradually became royal concubines. The British colonial rule has completely corrupted the devadasi tradition.

Edited February 18, 2013 by 3bob

[dwai]

Until recently, these dances were done only by sacred prostitutes.

 

 

Seriously?!? You have no idea what you are taking about.

[RongzomFan]

Seriously?!? You have no idea what you are taking about.

 

I'm going by the video.

 

I know that nowadays high class Indians' daughters learn dances from teachers.

Edited February 18, 2013 by alwayson

[dwai]

 

I'm going by the video.

 

I know that nowadays high class Indians' daughters learn dances from teachers.

 

Good lord! Where do you learn all this crap from?!?

[RongzomFan]

Good lord! Where do you learn all this crap from?!?

 

Mainstreaming of dance from devadasi......see video at 1:05:50

Edited February 18, 2013 by alwayson

[dwai]

 

Mainstreaming of dance from devadasi......see video at 1:05:50

 

Devadasis were a relatively insulated South Indian phenomenon. And they were not "prostitutes"...they were artists that devoted their lives to worship through their art.

 

You believe everything you see on YouTube?

[RongzomFan]

Historical info at 0:22:22

 

 

Devadasis were a relatively insulated South Indian phenomenon.

 

 

South India is the only true Indian culture anyway, since Islam destroyed Saiva Siddhanta etc. in the North.

[RongzomFan]

You believe everything you see on YouTube?

 

Its BBC documentary with an Indian historian. With the high Indian population in the UK, i'm pretty sure they did their research.

[dwai]

Historical info at 0:22:

 

 

 

 

South India is the only true Indian culture anyway, since Islam destroyed Saiva Siddhanta etc. in the North.

 

That is incorrect. Indian classical dance forms have been practised in both north and south india for thousands of years. You really need to learn indian history properly.

[RongzomFan]

That is incorrect.

 

 

It was more of my personal opinion that South India preserves Indian culture, since North Indian culture was severely disrupted by Islam.

[RongzomFan]

Historical info at

0:22:22

0:39:00

0:50:20

1:05:50

Edited February 18, 2013 by alwayson

[suninmyeyes]

Devadasis were a relatively insulated South Indian phenomenon. And they were not "prostitutes"...they were artists that devoted their lives to worship through their art. You believe everything you see on YouTube?

Hi Dwai ,

 

it seems that they were predominatley forced into the lifestyle at very early age ,as far as I am aware , which is a big difference...

 

This is from an interesting article :

http://sikhspectrum.com/2007/05/2472/

 

 

Devadasi system is not only exploitation of women, it is the institutionalized exploitation of women; it is the exploitation of Dalits, the lower class of untouchables; it is the religious sanction given to prostitution of helpless economically and socially deprived women; It is the glorification of humiliation of women. Inherent in this system is the fascistic belief that a certain section of human population, the lower caste, is meant to serve the ‘higher caste’s superior men’. Inherent in it is the feudal-lord-temple-priest-nexus, where the priest, already having a psychological hold over the minds of simple people to the point of dictating their way of life, uses his power to give ‘religious sanction’ to the practice by declaring it ‘sacred’, and thus cajole and lure simple minded villagers into this worst form of prostitution.

Devadasi literally means God’s (Dev) female servant (Dasi), where according to the ancient Indian practice, young pre-pubertal girls are ‘married off’, ‘given away’ in matrimony to God or Local religious deity of the temple. These girls are not allowed to marry, as they were supposedly married to the temple. She ‘serves’ the priests and inmates of the temple, and the Zamindars (local land lords) and other men of money and power, in the town and village. The ‘service’ (read sexual satisfaction) given to these men is considered akin to service of God. The Devadasi is dedicated to the service of the temple Deity for life and there is no escape for her. If she wants to escape, the society will not accept her.

...

According to the famous Indian scholar Jogan Shankar, following reasons played a major role in supplanting the system with firm roots:

1. As a substitute for human sacrifice, being and offering to the gods and goddesses to appease and secure blessings for the community as a whole;

2. As a rite to ensure the fertility of the land and the increase of human being and animal population;

3. As a part of phallic worship which existed in India from early Dravidian times;

4. Probably sacred prostitution sprang from the custom of providing sexual hospitality for strangers;

5. Licentious worship offered by a people, subservient to a degraded and vested interests of the priestly class; and

6. To create a custom in order to exploit lower caste people in India by the upper castes and classes.

Edited February 18, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[dwai]

Hi Dwai ,

 

it seems that they were predominatley forced into the lifestyle at very early age ,as far as I am aware , which is a big difference...

 

This is from an interesting article :

http://sikhspectrum.com/2007/05/2472/

 

 

Devadasi system is not only exploitation of women, it is the institutionalized exploitation of women; it is the exploitation of Dalits, the lower class of untouchables; it is the religious sanction given to prostitution of helpless economically and socially deprived women; It is the glorification of humiliation of women. Inherent in this system is the fascistic belief that a certain section of human population, the lower caste, is meant to serve the âhigher casteâs superior menâ. Inherent in it is the feudal-lord-temple-priest-nexus, where the priest, already having a psychological hold over the minds of simple people to the point of dictating their way of life, uses his power to give âreligious sanctionâ to the practice by declaring it âsacredâ, and thus cajole and lure simple minded villagers into this worst form of prostitution.

Devadasi literally means Godâs (Dev) female servant (Dasi), where according to the ancient Indian practice, young pre-pubertal girls are âmarried offâ, âgiven awayâ in matrimony to God or Local religious deity of the temple. These girls are not allowed to marry, as they were supposedly married to the temple. She âservesâ the priests and inmates of the temple, and the Zamindars (local land lords) and other men of money and power, in the town and village. The âserviceâ (read sexual satisfaction) given to these men is considered akin to service of God. The Devadasi is dedicated to the service of the temple Deity for life and there is no escape for her. If she wants to escape, the society will not accept her.

...

According to the famous Indian scholar Jogan Shankar, following reasons played a major role in supplanting the system with firm roots:

1. As a substitute for human sacrifice, being and offering to the gods and goddesses to appease and secure blessings for the community as a whole;

2. As a rite to ensure the fertility of the land and the increase of human being and animal population;

3. As a part of phallic worship which existed in India from early Dravidian times;

4. Probably sacred prostitution sprang from the custom of providing sexual hospitality for strangers;

5. Licentious worship offered by a people, subservient to a degraded and vested interests of the priestly class; and

6. To create a custom in order to exploit lower caste people in India by the upper castes and classes.

 

I am leery of such generalized pronouncements. There are a lot of vested interest groups that create and promote propaganda that is malicious towards the traditional Hindu society and try and blame all sorts of social aberrations on Hinduism.

 

While it might be partially true and indeed very tragic that the devadasi system became corrupted and abusive towards the devadasis, the system itself begun as a way to cultivate higher culture and traditional art forms.

 

Stereotyping Indian (specifically Hindu culture) with the caste, cows and curries label is an old trick in the bag of imperialistic agendas that unfortunately haven't disappeared yet.

 

I lived in 3 different states between east, north and southern india for the first 26 years of my life. I have not encountered any such aberrations in the course of my time spent there. I can say that others in my vast circle of friends and families have had similar experiences.

 

There are lots of political and financial implications of making such studies and warped analyses -- it's a long story and I don't have the time right now to get into ( you might have come across some such topics in course of your reason rajiv Malhotra, who has done an excellent job exposing such vested interests). A good book on this topic would be "Breaking India" co-authored by rajiv...

[suninmyeyes]

... I lived in 3 different states between east, north and southern india for the first 26 years of my life. I have not encountered any such aberrations in the course of my time spent there. I can say that others in my vast circle of friends and families have had similar experiences. There are lots of political and financial implications of making such studies and warped analyses -- it's a long story and I don't have the time right now to get into ( you might have come across some such topics in course of your reason rajiv Malhotra, who has done an excellent job exposing such vested interests). ...

 

Well the practise of devadasis has been outlawed in India since 1988 . I suppose these kind of practise may start as well intentioned , but that good intention is also debatable.

As you say yes there are a lot of warped analyses , but at the same time there is a lot of sweeping underneath the carpet.

I have read some stuff from Rajiv Malthora , might check the reccomended book out..

[RongzomFan]

Stereotyping Indian (specifically Hindu culture) with the caste, cows and curries label is an old trick in the bag of imperialistic agendas

 

 

I know there is debate about the caste system's history.

 

But forgetting about the history, you know very well that even today Hindus marry within extremely specific subcastes. In fact its more likely they will marry a white person, than an Indian outside their subcaste.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

B. R. Ambedkar also wrote the constitution of India.

[RongzomFan]

Interestingly a scholar that Rajiv Malhotra likes, says Buddhism was the dominant religion of India until the middle ages.

Edited February 20, 2013 by alwayson

[dwai]

Does this include B.R. Ambedkar and the 'Dalit Buddhist movement?' What do you think of Dwijendra Narayan Jha's Looking For A Hindu Identity??? [http://www.sacw.net/India_History/dnj_Jan06.pdf"]http://www.sacw.net/India_History/dnj_Jan06.pdf[/url]]

 

 

Does your circle of family and friends mostly belong to the middle/upper-middle or affluent upper class of society?

 

My circle of friends include Muslims, Christians and Hindus of various backgrounds. People from all over the nation - northeast, east, north, west and south.

 

We mostly didn't care about these identities or even care to know who was from which background - we were friends, period.

 

I would like to believe that most Indians are like how we were...

 

Sure there are pockets in rural areas and more under-developed areas where identity-based issues exist, but they are exceptions rather than the norm.

 

I remember one of my friends in university was a Muslim and another a South Indian Madhava Brahmin, a vegetarian. We would visit my Muslim friend's home to celebrate Ramadan and this pure vegetarian would eat rice cooked with meat in spirit of celebrating another friend's religious event.

 

The Muslim friend would partake in prasada ( sacred offerings to Hindu Gods) with no issues whatsoever.

 

There were no caste, communal or any other kind of discord. And we were from diverse backgrounds, both economic and otherwise.

 

When I see the younger generations while visiting india now I see much of the same...

 

BR Ambedkar was one of modern India's founding fathers. He was a great scholar and egalitarian. However even his great work has been appropriated for political vested interests.

 

Indian identity politics is a huge topic and it would take a very long time indeed for outsiders to understand it. It is not something that can be studied with a reductionist framework...

Edited February 18, 2013 by dwai

[RongzomFan]

Edited February 19, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

[RongzomFan]

Edited February 23, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]