Internal energy accumulated thru neigong lost during sleep

[healingtouch]

I was watching one of my favorite series, Romance of the Condor Heroes, when I was reminded of something that I suspected and noticed happening as well in my meditations. That during sleep our body goes through a reset and, since neigong cultivation goes against creation and the normal flow of energy, much of the enrgy that I accumulate during meditation, is not there anymore when I woke up the next day. The explanation is very simple and came to me through this scene

 

 

My question is: other than getting a hold of this fictional ice bed    what other ways of maintaing and even accumulating yin energy during sleep have you found?

[Daeluin]

Great topic! I am also curious to learn more about this.

 

I've read that martial artists can easily leak qi out through their hands and feet, until reaching a certain stage. As we train, expanding energy from our center to our extremities, and building up full body energy, we are opening these pathways and allowing the energy to flow from our center out through our extremities if we do not contain it somehow. As we develop greater fullness of energy, as the energy reaches the extremities under enough pressure, we can turn it around there and send it back to the center, and begin to work on a natural circulation process. As we are able to maintain this process at all times, even in our sleep, we can avoid leaking energy to a greater degree.

 

But it isn't just about opening pathways. We all have places where our energy flow is congested, with a counterpart of leakage - I think this usually happens due to challenges we face at early early ages, emotionally, when our needs are not met, or through patterns we develop in interaction with other people. Either this energy is trained to exchange with another externally, and the place it once flowed internally becomes unused and eventually blocks up, or something externally causes an inner challenge that creates a blockage, pressure builds up and the energy finds a way to leak out externally. Even as we train in inner martial arts to dissolve these blockages, we need to be aware of also answering that long-set, emotional pattern that has become ingrained in our habit momentum. Usually this can be seen in the ways we deal with stress, how we like to spend our money, and how active vs still our lifestyle is.

 

It isn't just that, either - at night when male sexual pressures have been built up, their release can be triggered by the slightest stirrings of desire, so cultivation of non-desire can be very helpful.

 

And largely, I feel it comes down to one's ability to fully accept everything that happened during the day - so fully that one let's it all go and is able to fully relax when sleeping. When we sleep the energy we created during the day is able to sink deeper into us, and if not blocked, can help to replenish our reserves. The more fully we can relax the more we allow this to happen.

 

Also, the five element energy patterns in the environment around us are constantly changing, and we need to learn to adapt to them. Especially each new day, as we wake, we should do some qigong to feel how this energy has changed, to adapt to its flow, and to re-awaken some of the energy that has settled.

 

And as for the energy that is leaking out and not settling, dao zhen recommends: Do not sleep on the stomach. Sleep on the back with one leg crossed over the other; hands resting below the navel, or on the right side with one leg tucked behind the bottom leg at the knee level; right palm cupping the ear; left palm below navel area. This side posture can be awkward at first, but as one learns to get comfortable in it, the spine is elongated and kept straight, and it feels very nice.

 

As one begins naturally circulating energy during sleep, or other automatic alchemical processes, much heat will be generated. I'd guess this heat can result in some leakage, and if one is able to maintain the circulation under cooler temperatures perhaps one is not radiating as much heat. But it is easy to find cooler temperatures, simply by taking off the blankets, sleeping outside, or sleeping on a concrete or stone floor.

 

I imagine the icy jade bed is more for an advanced practitioner, but what do I know? Very curious to hear from other posters!

[TheDustAutumn]

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Edited August 8, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[vonkrankenhaus]

Modern way of living is producing many compensations in the body.

 

When awake, we are directing qi according to mind - so what mind wants is focussing qi on what mind is aware of.

 

In sleep, body/organs is using qi to make repairs from all sorts of imbalances many times not known or important to mind.

 

Even in waking, organs are transforming qi flow according to their balance/imbalance, but we divert using conscious motivations.

 

Source of imbalances is in how outer environment is taken in to become inner environment. This means way of eating is not following at all the order of nature and is out of context, out of proportion, etc.

 

Body using "stored" cultivated qi and flowing "acquired" qi to try to make balance when mind is doing less with it. Trying to "iron out" both excess and deficiencies more in line with real environment and normal functions.

 

In this way, through misunderstanding natural order, qi cultivation is making one step forward, then maybe a step backwards next. Net result is slow cultivation, and eventually being overtaken by "illness" as many gongfu and qigong masters also exhibit.

 

Modern understanding of qigong misses, or passes over, the most primary exchange with the environment - physical food, which is a crystalization of the overall environment in the form of very "compacted" or "concentrated" qi.

 

When we eat, notice tongue repeatedly touching upper palate while chewing. This is breaking food apart and transferring qi using tongue, and brain is obtaining energy/information about/from what is being eaten - including raw qi, memory imprints, energetics of form, small bioelectric energy, etc, etc. Some of this "information" even is used to "understand" form being eaten and also environment. Organs respond, etc. Then, overall, this intake is becoming our expression, our actions and movements.

 

Modern way of eating and living is not logical (orderly, Tao) in relation to natural "normal" energy transfers. This affects qigong and all forms of energy cultivation practices.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[blue eyed snake]

What vK says is very much in accordance with what I'm taught.

 

I want to add, my teacher explicitly forbids me to try to accumulate qi in the LDT as long as i'm still ill. He tells me i should play around with qi    and only let it flow as it wants, and then out of the body, taking illness, pain, swelling and itching with it.

 

even though I don't really understand it as yet, i can feel that  it's good for the body (and the mind).

[SonOfTheGods]

 -Sleep is essential for Jing, so it goes full circle.

Edited May 10, 2015 by SonOfTheGods

[healingtouch]

Second what do you understand by yin qi? There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding around this subject. 

 

By yin qi I understand qi that is aquired and stored inside the dantien in a passive way, without an act of willful effort or meditation or qi circulation on the part of the cultivator. This perhaps can come from wearing certain crystals or listening to certain music, sleeping in certain positions, having certain plants/animals around, while sleeping, etc.

 

Actually, this reminds me of a story that I've been told by a girl from HK, a Buddhist cultivator for 15 years with some very impressive abilities, that wealthy women in Korea do actually have beds made entirely of jade exactly for this purpose of cultivating internal energy. So I guess even the icy jade bed in this story is not that fictional.

Edited May 10, 2015 by healingtouch

[TheDustAutumn]

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Edited August 8, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[healingtouch]

 

The only type of qi that does what you say ,as faras I know, is yuan qi, and that happens only up until the age 16-17. After that, when yang is full, yin is born and yuan qi starts to dissipate. If qi would naturally/effortlessly tend to accumulate rather than dissipate, we would all be masters by the time we die. Qi, by its nature, is like fire, it tends to rise and tries to escape.

About crystals and the such, I don't know very much. It could be that some may enhance ones ability to cultivate, but without conscious will I doubt any meaningful cultivation can take place(unless you consider breathing a form of neigong)

 Yes, in this context, with being surrounded by the right "tools", every breath would subconciously become a form of neigong.

 

It's how some people do become masters without any concious effort on their part other than meditation or prayer. They are placed by their spirit guides in the right environment at the right place and at the right time. As they say, everything does become a million times easier when one has Heaven on their side.

 

[TheDustAutumn]

 Yes, in this context, with being surrounded by the right "tools", every breath would subconciously become a form of neigong.

 

It's how some people do become masters without any concious effort on their part other than meditation or prayer. They are placed by their spirit guides in the right environment at the right place and at the right time. As they say, everything does become a million times easier when one has Heaven on their side.

 

This sounds a lot like one of those ads : get thin without exercising and while eating all you can. I might be mistaken, but  I personally doubt that any kind of real cultivation and spiritual achievement(just like anything else) can be done without personal effort, just through some magic contraptions and "by the grace of God". I can only speak from my own experience: internal training for energy cultivation is a very daunting task that requires effort, strong will, unyielding mind and body, discipline and a lot of patience and persistence. In my experience it's orders of magnitude harder overall than external kung-fu and I guess that is the reason why most people give up after a while.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"If qi would naturally/effortlessly tend to accumulate rather than dissipate, we would all be masters by the time we die. Qi, by its nature, is like fire, it tends to rise and tries to escape."

-----

 

This is actually the path of normal human life, which is what cultivation is also working towards.

 

Those two sentences are showing more like "solution" than "problem", if you look at them carefully.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[TheDustAutumn]

Re:

-----

"If qi would naturally/effortlessly tend to accumulate rather than dissipate, we would all be masters by the time we die. Qi, by its nature, is like fire, it tends to rise and tries to escape."

-----

 

This is actually the path of normal human life, which is what cultivation is also working towards.

 

Those two sentences are showing more like "solution" than "problem", if you look at them carefully.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

I believe the path towards realizing the Great Tao is in the opposite direction of a human life, back towards the Origin, and although it follows the way of nature, does so by going in reverse, hence the name "Great Elixir of the Golden Liquor of the Seven Returns and Nine Reversions"

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"I believe the path towards realizing the Great Tao is in the opposite direction of a human life, back towards the Origin,,,"

-----

 

Do you think normal human life is not returning to Origin?

 

Where then could it be going?

 

-----

",,,and although it follows the way of nature, does so by going in reverse"

-----

 

We exist within nature.

 

Nature has no "forward" or "reverse".

 

So, coZma, I am not saying your beliefs are strictly "wrong", but I am just try to point out that these ideas and statements are very, very open for examination. We should question all of them quite deeply, and never realy just accept them without truly seeing or knowing for ourselves.

 

Many of these ideas are badly translated into western thought and conditioning as it is, so belief being added, this is not a very fast way to understand internal cultivation.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[GreytoWhite]

Hmmm... I've found some of my best energy gains to be after a good night's sleep. However, I'm still working in my dreams.

[TheDustAutumn]

Re:

-----

"I believe the path towards realizing the Great Tao is in the opposite direction of a human life, back towards the Origin,,,"

-----

 

Do you think normal human life is not returning to Origin?

 

Where then could it be going?

 

-----

",,,and although it follows the way of nature, does so by going in reverse"

-----

 

We exist within nature.

 

Nature has no "forward" or "reverse".

 

So, coZma, I am not saying your beliefs are strictly "wrong", but I am just try to point out that these ideas and statements are very, very open for examination. We should question all of them quite deeply, and never realy just accept them without truly seeing or knowing for ourselves.

 

Many of these ideas are badly translated into western thought and conditioning as it is, so belief being added, this is not a very fast way to understand internal cultivation.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Most of my views and interests in the subject are about concrete applications, not philosophy. And nature does have a direction as imposed, if not by anything else, than at least by the flow of time. When yang reaches an extreme it gives rise to yin this is the natural way. Internal cultivation is the reverse of that, the return to pure yang.

Anyway I'm not here to start a philosophical debate as that leads nowhere and for most part is meaningless. As I said before when it comes to Neigong I speak out of experience, not belief and I believe I said what I had to say regarding OP's question.

Edited May 11, 2015 by coZma

[TheDustAutumn]

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Edited May 11, 2015 by coZma

[Daeluin]

Re:

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"I believe the path towards realizing the Great Tao is in the opposite direction of a human life, back towards the Origin,,,"

-----

 

Do you think normal human life is not returning to Origin?

 

Certainly, in a manner of speaking...

 

Where then could it be going?

 

Balance is a funny thing. We can head straight for the center of balance, only to pass right over it. This is the same with the polarity of life and death.

 

We exist within nature.

 

Nature has no "forward" or "reverse".

 

So, coZma, I am not saying your beliefs are strictly "wrong", but I am just try to point out that these ideas and statements are very, very open for examination. We should question all of them quite deeply, and never realy just accept them without truly seeing or knowing for ourselves.

 

Many of these ideas are badly translated into western thought and conditioning as it is, so belief being added, this is not a very fast way to understand internal cultivation.

 

Yes, agreed... these concepts are very subtle and contain many layers of truth. But right there, in layers of truth, we have the meaning of forward and reverse.

 

If we use resources to articulate and express and create, the substance we carved these articulations upon changes shape. The emptiness I carved these words upon has now been used, and though they contain traces of their origin, the shape they now hold is all that many will see. How do we return them to their original state? This is the topic of "reversal," but this reversal has many stages, and is just as much about accumulating nothing-ness as it is about original something-ness. It would be easy to call reversing going forward and going forward reversing, but the key is in finding balance.

[doc benway]

That during sleep our body goes through a reset and, since neigong cultivation goes against creation and the normal flow of energy, much of the enrgy that I accumulate during meditation, is not there anymore when I woke up the next day. 

In my experience and opinion this is nonsense. 

 

First, neigong cultivation does not go against creation and the normal flow of energy.

That is simply a mistaken concept. It goes against maladaptive practices and habits but not against our nature. 

 

Second, nothing is nothing more natural and consistent with our basic nature than sleep. It is an essential part of our lives with or without cultivation. Certainly, we need less if we cultivate effectively because meditation is as or more restful to the brain as sleep. Perhaps at high levels of mastery, very little sleep is needed. It is still natural and supportive.

 

If we feel as if we are gaining something while awake and losing it during sleep, that is simply a conceptual construct. Certainly if our sleep is dysfunctional we may feel negative consequences of that while awake. It is important that our sleep be healthy and restful (eg. not altered by drugs, diet, electronic addiction, psycho-emotional issues, etc...).

 

 

My question is: other than getting a hold of this fictional ice bed    what other ways of maintaing and even accumulating yin energy during sleep have you found?

The best sleep practice is dream yoga - learning the art of lucid dreaming and using that lucidity for cultivation practices. 

 

We get ourselves so confused and distanced from our true nature through intellectual games and belief.

What is important is trusting that what we are is just that. Trying to be something other than what we are is the problem we face.

 

All of the above is simply my opinion. 

[Daeluin]

Certainly, we need less if we cultivate effectively because meditation is as or more restful to the brain as sleep. Perhaps at high levels of mastery, very little sleep is needed. It is still natural and supportive.

 

That reminded me of this. Also, I think the amount of sleep needed is different from the amount of rest needed. As higher vibrational energies are replenished, one might feel less tired. But this can lead to insomnia unless one is able to cultivate stillness and relaxation despite not feeling like sleeping. I think this is connected to cleansing encrustations from the hypothalamus region and allowing the nervous system to flow efficiently. If one is able to maintain the supply of higher vibrational energies and avoid these encrustations, one might not need to sleep at all - and is also likely to be highly skilled in things like wakeful dreaming. I was taught that as we cultivate more, we should be sleeping less and less.

[healingtouch]

Most of my views and interests in the subject are about concrete applications, not philosophy. And nature does have a direction as imposed, if not by anything else, than at least by the flow of time. When yang reaches an extreme it gives rise to yin this is the natural way. Internal cultivation is the reverse of that, the return to pure yang.

Anyway I'm not here to start a philosophical debate as that leads nowhere and for most part is meaningless. As I said before when it comes to Neigong I speak out of experience, not belief and I believe I said what I had to say regarding OP's question.

 

 

In my experience and opinion this is nonsense. 

 

First, neigong cultivation does not go against creation and the normal flow of energy.

That is simply a mistaken concept. It goes against maladaptive practices and habits but not against our nature. 

 

I'd have to agree with CoZma on this one that if neigong was with the flow of Creation, it would require no effort and no knowledge on our part, and the norm would be people becoming Masters. And it would take an effort not to become one. I'm sure we can all agree this is not the case .. at least not anymore. I say not anymore because perhaps there was a point in the past where this was the case, when virtue was the norm and more people then not where Masters, but somehow that has changed, for whatever reason.

 

I quote from the Iching translation by Thomas Cleary which has proven to be a great guide for me in my spiritual journey

Hexagram 23

 

"What does not allow yang to avoid turning to yin is the circulating energy mechanism of heaven and earth; yet what is able to preserve yang in the midst of yin is the power of the practice of reverse operation of sages. Since sages have a path that is before time and yet not violated by nature, they can use it to usurp creation and turn life and death around" As for ordinary people, they go along with the course of creation, which strips away yang by yin; when yang energy has waned away and become pure yin, how can they not die?"

 

[healingtouch]

This sounds a lot like one of those ads : get thin without exercising and while eating all you can. I might be mistaken, but  I personally doubt that any kind of real cultivation and spiritual achievement(just like anything else) can be done without personal effort, just through some magic contraptions and "by the grace of God". I can only speak from my own experience: internal training for energy cultivation is a very daunting task that requires effort, strong will, unyielding mind and body, discipline and a lot of patience and persistence. In my experience it's orders of magnitude harder overall than external kung-fu and I guess that is the reason why most people give up after a while.

 

Perhaps under the category of effort we can also place the search for knowledge on how to speed up and make the practice of neigong more efficient thru the use of external tools such as crystals, herbal supplements, facing certain directions, practicing at certain times, under certain weather conditions, etc. ?

 

Also, another very important part of the paractice is virtue and a properly prepared nervous system for the extra voltage. Without it, even if someone found the perfect tool to enable us to make every breath be a neigong breath, all that would do is speed up that person's demise or going into madness or psychosis.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

When Chunyi did his cave full lotus meditation he was required to have no sleep for a month. Then he also did 2 months of no sleep - just full lotus meditation the whole time.

 

Also the teacher of Yan Xin did not sleep at all - just meditated all night.

 

Master Haidan - of Shaolin - http://thedaobums.com/topic/27367-shaolin-horse-stance-2-hour-training-and-master-yao-setting-things-on-fire-with-his-eyes/

 

that thread gives more details - he meditates in full lotus all night. The qigong masters here in Minnesota do full lotus meditation for 4 hours a day and then sleep a few hours.

[JinlianPai]

Yes this was one of my favorites to very good show.

 

I dont even watch regular tv anymore.

[doc benway]

I'd have to agree with CoZma on this one that if neigong was with the flow of Creation, it would require no effort and no knowledge on our part, and the norm would be people becoming Masters. And it would take an effort not to become one. I'm sure we can all agree this is not the case .. at least not anymore. I say not anymore because perhaps there was a point in the past where this was the case, when virtue was the norm and more people then not where Masters, but somehow that has changed, for whatever reason.

 

What do you make of the concept of Wu Wei?

Eating and drinking do not go against the flow of creation and yet both require knowledge and energy on our part. 

As does procreation. 

 

We are all already masters - we are simply unaware of our divinity.

You can get farther through non-effort than through effort.

The one exerting the effort is exactly what is obscuring that which is already perfect.

[dwai]

I was watching one of my favorite series, Romance of the Condor Heroes, when I was reminded of something that I suspected and noticed happening as well in my meditations. That during sleep our body goes through a reset and, since neigong cultivation goes against creation and the normal flow of energy, much of the enrgy that I accumulate during meditation, is not there anymore when I woke up the next day. The explanation is very simple and came to me through this scene

 

 

My question is: other than getting a hold of this fictional ice bed    what other ways of maintaing and even accumulating yin energy during sleep have you found?

Store the Qi as Jin(g) in the Bone Marrow and Lower Dan Tien. Then it won't be lost