Wu Wei

[mindatrisk]

Hi.

 

I did a search of the forums for 'Wu Wei' (effortless action etc.) but there were no results. Can anyone explain this for me? Maybe there is a different term that is used here, but as far as I understand from the small bit i've read on Taoism, Wu Wei is a central concept, so i'd like to read more about it here, and especially to hear about your experience of Wu Wei, how you practice it, the results that have followed etc.

 

Thank you! 

[Marblehead]

Ah!  Another Wu Wei thread.  Always an enjoyable discussion even though we might not all agree with one another.

 

Yes, you did a good transliteration - effortless action.  Also natural action.  Spontaneity.  Action without alterior motive.

 

But it does not mean sitting on one's behind and doing nothing.  Nor does it mean to live off others instead of earning one's own way.

 

I will hold for now and hopefully others will get involved and present their understandings.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Marblehead

[Daeluin]

http://thedaobums.com/topic/18852-what-is-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/35336-wu-wei-meaning-non-selfish-action/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/34844-thoughts-on-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/37431-wu-wei-effortless-action/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/26925-interpretations-of-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/27640-some-thoughts-on-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/17916-how-is-wu-wei-different-from-laziness/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38032-highest-most-pure-state-of-wei-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/19627-etymology-of-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/20025-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/28673-wu-wei-non-decisions-not-weighing-no-pun-intended-options/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/25003-wei-wu-wei-paradox-unraveled/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/9067-questions-about-wu-wei/

http://thedaobums.com/topic/9086-how-do-you-personally-employ-wu-wei-non-action-in-daily-life/

[dust]

I did a search of the forums for 'Wu Wei' (effortless action etc.) but there were no results.

 

Perhaps you took the 'effortless' part a little too literally?

 

I think that the forum search function requires a chain of more than 3 characters/letters in order to return anything, so searching 'wu' or 'wei' or 'wu wei' won't work. But you can use Google: site:thedaobums.com "wu wei"

 

Anyway..

 

 

 

But it does not mean sitting on one's behind and doing nothing.

 

Could do.

 

If one can get by sitting under a fruit tree and eating the windfall, and one is happy, then why not?

[Marblehead]

 

If one can get by sitting under a fruit tree and eating the windfall, and one is happy, then why not?

Yes, sitting under the shade of the fruit tree and living off the land is fine.  A truly hard life but fine.  I was speaking to those who live off the efforts of others.  Sure, sometimes there are reasons why one would support another but for one to take intentional advantage of the kindness of another is unacceptable, IMO.  This would not be wu wei, it would be scamming.

[dust]

for one to take intentional advantage of the kindness of another is unacceptable, IMO.  This would not be wu wei, it would be scamming.

 

OK. I misunderstood. But I'm going to continue to argue with you, because I wonder the following:

 

Is the idea of wu wei to do with values? Or are you applying a certain morality to a concept that is not inherently moral in nature?

 

Robber Zhi was well-versed in the Way and its virtue, and made his way stealing things from others. In this, he applied wu wei.

 

 

吾所謂臧者，非仁義之謂也，臧於其德而已矣；吾所謂臧者，非所謂仁義之謂也，任其性命之情而已矣

(Zhuangzi)

 

When I pronounce men to be good, I am not speaking of their benevolence and righteousness; the goodness is simply (their possession of) the qualities (of the Dao). When I pronounce them to be good, I am not speaking of what are called benevolence and righteousness; but simply of their allowing the nature with which they are endowed to have its free course.

(Legge)

 

My definition of expertness has nothing to do with benevolence and righteousness; it means being expert in regard to your Virtue, that is all. My definition of expertness has nothing to do with benevolence or righteousness; it means following the true form of your inborn nature, that is all.

(Watson)

[ChiForce]

Let me take a shot at it...hehehehehe.....

 

On a more simpler level, is about man acting with the Tao.  Thereby, events around him would unfold naturally without him consciously making things to happen.  

 

On a higher, esoteric level, I see wu we as having the ability to see and to know the Tao and the law governing nature and events (ie as in precognitive messages and visions).  One can decide either to act or not to act in order to allow the event to unfold as it should. 

 

Here, you would begin to deal with what is called the temporal paradox in the sci fi lingo...heheehehe..   Meaning that because you know how certain events would unfold naturally, should you act or not act on it.  Would your deliberated action cause the event to unfold or not to unfold.  A lot of times, people make things worst by doing too much in a situation. 

 

Another aspect of wu wei is when you can act instinctively because you have put aside your discriminative mind and to allow your tao mind to function as it is.  For example would be in a life threatening situation when you have little time to react to the situation (war zones, car accidents, and etc).  

[shanlung]

For all it is worth, some idiotic thoughts on this subject

Which cannot be proven right, or proven wrong

 

Taoism - Some thoughts on Wu Wei
(this also give a sketch to my earlier days and involvement in martial arts)

 

The Idiotic Taoist on a soap box

[Geof Nanto]

Some words from Louis Komjathy  about the foundational Daoist values and concerns of  "non-action" (wuwei) and "suchness" (ziran)……

 

There is much confusion about these terms, especially when interpreted as justification for some kind of laissez faire ("anything goes") attitude, characterized by uninhibited personal fulfilment. Under this reading, wuwei and ziran contain implicit critiques of morality. However from a Daoist perspective, the terms are intricately related: the practice of wuwei leads to a state of ziran. Wuwei is effortless activity, the practice of not doing anything extra or unnecessary, we may think of it in terms of conservation and non-attachment. In certain social and environmental contexts, it may be understood as "non-intervention' and "non-interference," as letting be, as allowing space for existential freedom. Ziran (tzu-jan) is frequently translated as "self-so," "naturalness,” or "spontaneity." The latter two renderings are problematic if not interpreted contextually.

 

Returning to or attaining the state of ziran, which is the Dao as such, presupposes four dimensions mentioned in Chapter 19 of the Daode jing: appearing plain, embracing simplicity, lessening personal  interest, and decreasing desires. Ziran is not "going with the flow" in the sense of following one's own selfish desires. Rather, it refers to an ontological condition beyond  the limitations of egoistic identity. Ziran is best understood as "suchness," or "being-so-of-itself,” to use a phrase from the German philosopher Martin Heidegger. It is simultaneously one's "natural" condition and the manifestation of the Dao through one's being. However, too often wuwei is misunderstood as apathy or atrophy, while ziran is misunderstood as the reproduction of habituation.

 

Within the Daoist tradition, there is actually much discussion of and different perspectives on the relationship between "fate" (ontological givenness) and freedom, or the capacity for independent action and the possibility and desirability of "perfection." Wuwei involves allowing each being to unfold according to its own nature and connection with the Dao. It involves allowing space for ziran to appear. Applied to ethics, wuwei  inspires one to stop doing everything that prevents one from being who one is and that inhibits other beings from expressing their innate condition with the Dao. Such a condition is characterized by virtue. For Daoists, it is possible to be "naturally ethical," but that entails a corresponding transcendence of social conditioning, familial obligations, and personal  habituation. It involves understanding the sources of desire. A lack of attention to the condition of one's core goodness also frequently results in acceptance of what should be rejected and rejection of what should be accepted.

 

(From The Daoist Tradition  pp154-5)

[mindatrisk]

Thank you for the replies, and thank you for the links to other relevant threads. I have a few ideas on what Wu Wei might be based upon other ideas that i've heard. One idea is that we each have a blueprint within us that is our 'highest' path / calling / nature etc.

 

We see this blueprint in the rest of nature. For example, a rose bush has the blueprint of a rose bush within it and can only be a rose bush. Where humans differ is with that we seem to have some free-will. Each of us has our own unique blueprint within us, but we are free to ignore it and live whatever life our circumstances allow us.

 

How can we know our blueprint? Our passions, interests, talents, inspiration excitement, enthusiasm, interests etc. all signal what our blueprint is. If we follow our passions etc. then - to the degree of commitment - we fulfil our blueprint. Wu Wei (effortless action) is the process of following our passions, interests, enthusiasms etc.

 

Most of us will have had this experience at various times when we have 'acted' on inspiration or engaged in a passionate activity whereby we become immersed in what it is we are 'doing' and it has been easy, natural, flowing, no effort. For example, sometimes I play guitar and create pieces of music with such ease - no thought, no effort, no action being taken on my behalf, it just happens... it's a happening that occurs through me not an action that occurs because of me.

 

So, this is how I am coming to understand Wu Wei. The key is to identify my passions (this requires some excavation), to immerse myself into moments of inspiration and let whatever will be unfold, and to attempt to translate this effortlessness into all moments, i.e. connecting the dots of excitement, moving from one inspiration to the next. I haven't experienced it yet, but I suspect it is as self-propogating process, i.e. the more that I engage with what inspires / excites me, then the more inspiration and excitement comes into my life to continue moving forwards.

 

I'm not sure how well i've explained this, but my thoughts are coming together somewhat and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it with others.   

[mindatrisk]

For all it is worth, some idiotic thoughts on this subject

Which cannot be proven right, or proven wrong

 

Taoism - Some thoughts on Wu Wei

(this also give a sketch to my earlier days and involvement in martial arts)

 

The Idiotic Taoist on a soap box

 

Thank you. I enjoyed reading this. I'm not sure how Wi Wei relates to the abilities of such a master martial artist. I suspect that their 'actions' are entirely spontaneous, and that, even when you challenge them, they have no thought, agenda etc. as to what will happen, rather it just happens. 

[dust]

Most of us will have had this experience at various times when we have 'acted' on inspiration or engaged in a passionate activity whereby we become immersed in what it is we are 'doing' and it has been easy, natural, flowing, no effort. For example, sometimes I play guitar and create pieces of music with such ease - no thought, no effort, no action being taken on my behalf, it just happens... it's a happening that occurs through me not an action that occurs because of me.

 

So, this is how I am coming to understand Wu Wei. The key is to identify my passions (this requires some excavation), to immerse myself into moments of inspiration and let whatever will be unfold, and to attempt to translate this effortlessness into all moments, i.e. connecting the dots of excitement, moving from one inspiration to the next. I haven't experienced it yet, but I suspect it is as self-propogating process, i.e. the more that I engage with what inspires / excites me, then the more inspiration and excitement comes into my life to continue moving forwards.

 

This is more or less how I've attempted to explain it in the past.

 

In my opinion, you've 'got it'; or at least a part of it.

 

 

Returning to or attaining the state of ziran, which is the Dao as such, presupposes four dimensions mentioned in Chapter 19 of the Daode jing: appearing plain, embracing simplicity, lessening personal  interest, and decreasing desires. Ziran is not "going with the flow" in the sense of following one's own selfish desires. Rather, it refers to an ontological condition beyond  the limitations of egoistic identity. Ziran is best understood as "suchness," or "being-so-of-itself,” to use a phrase from the German philosopher Martin Heidegger. It is simultaneously one's "natural" condition and the manifestation of the Dao through one's being. However, too often wuwei is misunderstood as apathy or atrophy, while ziran is misunderstood as the reproduction of habituation.

 

Within the Daoist tradition, there is actually much discussion of and different perspectives on the relationship between "fate" (ontological givenness) and freedom, or the capacity for independent action and the possibility and desirability of "perfection." Wuwei involves allowing each being to unfold according to its own nature and connection with the Dao. It involves allowing space for ziran to appear. Applied to ethics, wuwei  inspires one to stop doing everything that prevents one from being who one is and that inhibits other beings from expressing their innate condition with the Dao.

 

Firstly, I'd like to restate something I've said before: I think that self-so is the perfect translation of ziran.

 

Secondly, I'm going to question Komjathy too  

 

I'd like to point out the inherent conflict implied when we say that we should be ourselves and follow our own nature without following our own selfish desires. Humans are already a manifestation of the Way; to stop and question our own nature, being told that we should be wuwei and ziran but only if that means being simple and selfless and ethical, only serves to create more questions and confusion. To be self-so, to follow one's "natural condition", will often entail being murderous, jealous, and greedy, as well as being compassionate, gentle, and "selfless".

 

Water, always following its own nature, can be as destructive a force as we know of, or it can settle and be still, deep in the Earth for aeons. A cow, or hippo, or many other an animal, will be generally soft and at ease -- until threatened, or scared, or disturbed in any way, at which point it may rampage and kill.

 

Robber Zhi, again:

 

 

Looking at the subject in this way, we see that good men do not arise without having the principles of the sages, and that Zhi could not have pursued his course without the same principles. But the good men in the world are few, and those who are not good are many - it follows that the sages benefit the world in a few instances and injure it in many.

[Marblehead]

OK. I misunderstood. But I'm going to continue to argue with you, because I wonder the following:

 

Is the idea of wu wei to do with values? Or are you applying a certain morality to a concept that is not inherently moral in nature?

Oh, let's argue.  That's more fun than just saying "Yep".

 

Beyond good and evil.

 

All events within the universe are relative and a matter of perspective.

 

Is the leopard to be blamed for being such a skillful hunter?  

 

Eat or be eaten.

 

Kill or be killed.

 

The Way of Dao is ruthless.

 

We humans like to pretend that we are better than the ways of Nature.    That is why we have created the concept of benevolence and righteousness.

 

But,

 

The Way of Dao is peaceful contentment.

 

Wu Wei is, at its root, without judgement and moral values.

 

However, if we live by the sword we will very likely die by the sword.  Robber Zhi died by the sword.  He did not live out all his natural days.

[shanlung]

Thank you. I enjoyed reading this. I'm not sure how Wi Wei relates to the abilities of such a master martial artist. I suspect that their 'actions' are entirely spontaneous, and that, even when you challenge them, they have no thought, agenda etc. as to what will happen, rather it just happens. 

 

 

Wuwei was what I lacked into getting deeper into taijichuan.

I lacked other aspects as well.  

I expanded on what I written earlier into here.

But again what I wrote is not likely to help you into martial arts except as a window into a part of my life.

 

As last said,

 

Some stuff I wrote long ago on my experience in taijichuan even longer ago might amuse you even if that is not likely to be any guide to you.

 

http://thedaobums.co...n-styles/page-4

 

 

 

Idiotic Taoist on fragments of memories of peng li ji ann

[shanlung]

 

 

 

cancelling double posting

Edited August 12, 2015 by shanlung

[Daeluin]

Secondly, I'm going to question Komjathy too

 

I'd like to point out the inherent conflict implied when we say that we should be ourselves and follow our own nature without following our own selfish desires. Humans are already a manifestation of the Way; to stop and question our own nature, being told that we should be wuwei and ziran but only if that means being simple and selfless and ethical, only serves to create more questions and confusion. To be self-so, to follow one's "natural condition", will often entail being murderous, jealous, and greedy, as well as being compassionate, gentle, and "selfless".

 

The way I understand it, our selfish nature is contrived, and not our real nature. It comes when we are not at peace, not resting upon the natural flow of our "way". This natural flow is via ziran, ziran IS the current we follow through wuwei. It is the current we rest upon, flowing one way because that way is more "self-so" than the other way. Self-so not in the sense that it satisfies our ego-nature, but satisfies our spirit's desire to remain in a peaceful state.

 

Water, always following its own nature, can be as destructive a force as we know of, or it can settle and be still, deep in the Earth for aeons. A cow, or hippo, or many other an animal, will be generally soft and at ease -- until threatened, or scared, or disturbed in any way, at which point it may rampage and kill.

 

In the same sense that ego-nature can be contrived, so can that which water rests upon. It is not really the water that is acting, it is the conditions the water finds itself placed within, and it remains at rest within these conditions even as it takes the blame for the destructive results. But these results are only caused by a different force that is in operation - part of the ego-nature of the planet.

 

Sure ego nature can be viewed as "natural", but perhaps the important distinction to be made is that the concept of ziran allows for a middle ground in which allows for expression of one's own true nature without preventing the expression of the true nature of others.

 

Expression of ego-nature is like inferior de; expression of true nature is like superior de.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Daeluin

[Brian]

In my mind, wuwei is about ripples. As we grow, we become capable of creating larger ripples. As we mature, we become more aware of the way our ripples affect others and the way others' ripples affect us (with the distinction between the two becoming progressively less certain). As we gain wisdom, we view ripples from a more subtle perspective and increasingly only create them or interact with them with intent.

[Green Tiger]

In my mind, wuwei is about ripples. As we grow, we become capable of creating larger ripples. As we mature, we become more aware of the way our ripples affect others and the way others' ripples affect us (with the distinction between the two becoming progressively less certain). As we gain wisdom, we view ripples from a more subtle perspective and increasingly only create them or interact with them with intent.

 

That's a really fantastic and novel description, Brian.  Thank you!  I've been thinking about this aspect of the practice a lot lately.  Being able to feel other people's "ripples" is a really valuable ability, in fact it may be the most useful thing I've learned from the practice because it really has day-to-day application. 

 

On the flip side of that coin, feeling other people's ripples is a lot like hearing them speak.  It can be really informative, but it can also become annoying. 

[Geof Nanto]

Secondly, I'm going to question Komjathy too

 

I'd like to point out the inherent conflict implied when we say that we should be ourselves and follow our own nature without following our own selfish desires. Humans are already a manifestation of the Way; to stop and question our own nature, being told that we should be wuwei and ziran but only if that means being simple and selfless and ethical, only serves to create more questions and confusion. To be self-so, to follow one's "natural condition", will often entail being murderous, jealous, and greedy, as well as being compassionate, gentle, and "selfless".

 

Water, always following its own nature, can be as destructive a force as we know of, or it can settle and be still, deep in the Earth for aeons. A cow, or hippo, or many other an animal, will be generally soft and at ease -- until threatened, or scared, or disturbed in any way, at which point it may rampage and kill.

 

I started writing a reply to your post but realised my thoughts were far too complex to readily express. You raise important questions and I'd like to give a meaningful response that encompasses my experiences, if for no other reason than to clarify my own thinking. My path has been one of following my desires; that's how I've found myself to the (limited) extent I have. However, that statement requires many provisos.

 

These Dao Bums discussions often tend to move faster than I'd like. I prefer slow and deep, but that doesn't work so well in a forum with so many competing voices and different perspectives. If I'm able to come up with something I deem worthwhile I'll post it here later. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Yueya

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Taking a crack at it:

 

Wuwei and Ziran applies to ourselves and everything else in equal totalness.

Not only are we exactly what/where we are and nothing else but also we are it without actually struggling to basically exist (i mean in the bluntest most literal sense, not counting the mess of eating, paying rent, dodging bullets, bacteria and bosses) until the day we die (wich of course may be precipitated by aforementioned messes of life).

But changing anything (wich happens all the time) takes energy and energy is counteracted by inertia (bear with me), unless one piggybacks a change in energy on another energy.

Water piggybacks on everything, even air, and in return, much life piggybacks on water.

So for me, right now, wu wei and zi ran are both descriptions of status quo and descriptions of methods for changing without struggling more than necessary at a given time in a specific situation.

Now mastering that is a whole different pair of shoes

 

A rose bush is a rose bush and grew into being, but a brick is just as much ziran as a plant and it was made by hands. The two have endless possibilities but they are not the same. In martial arts you might use a myriad of different techniques to block a straight punch to the face and depending on the bodies, forces and other conditions involved, any of those techniques might be wu wei, but in each case it will be ziran...

 

At least i think... i'm trailing now, not sure if something can be/have ziran or wu wei even but for now it will have to do. Missing the target is also shooting right?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Rocky Lionmouth

[doc benway]

Hi.

 

I did a search of the forums for 'Wu Wei' (effortless action etc.) but there were no results. Can anyone explain this for me? Maybe there is a different term that is used here, but as far as I understand from the small bit i've read on Taoism, Wu Wei is a central concept, so i'd like to read more about it here, and especially to hear about your experience of Wu Wei, how you practice it, the results that have followed etc.

 

Thank you! 

 

A simple example of wu wei vs the alternative -

Think of a task you are obligated to to perform that you dislike or feel is unnecessary - work, school, housework... Something that is annoying and drudgery. 

No matter how physically or intellectually easy it is, it feels difficult and drains us of energy. 

Now think of doing something extremely physically and/or mentally challenging that you love, something you feel is extremely beneficial, maybe something that helps someone you really care for - it is effortless. You feel energized, even if exhausted.

This is one example of effortless action vs effortful action. 

 

I've played guitar for many years, always music written by others - never wrote anything myself but always wanted to. 

My thoughts always got in the way - I'm not good enough, don't understand theory enough, no one will like it, it will never be good enough, and so forth. 

I recently participated in a workshop designed to tap into our creative potential. The idea is that when we connect with ourselves at a level deeper than the narrator, the rational process, the creator of the reasons why we can't do things - fear, hope, expectation - it just happens, it's already always there, waiting. The meditations connected us to that source and simply called attention to the fears, the expectations, and whatever other blockages were there.

And it worked! In 3 weeks I wrote 5 pieces of music based on meditation on the 5 elements.

And when I opened and felt the flow begin, they were effortless, I couldn't stop working on them and felt completely energized and enthusiastic. And they're not half bad, if you'll excuse a bit of conceit.

 

Our connection to our nature, unsoiled by conditioning, ignorance, desire, aversion, and so forth, permits spontaneity. 

And when that connection is genuine and strong, we are without fear, without expectation, and our creative potential is enormous. Suddenly problems that have stymied us are solved. Great beauty is there, generosity, strength - it is a reservoir, a treasure, a refuge. 

 

I think this is what the sages connect with when they refer to wu wei - spontaneous, effortless manifestation of the source, our fundamental nature, that is uncorrupted and pure. It is more than simply not trying to do, it is allowing the obstructions created by thought and conditioning to settle so that our latent potential, which is pure, perfect, and limitless, can shine through.

[Daeluin]

The Tao is forever undefined.
Small though it is in the unformed state, it cannot be grasped.
If kings and lords could harness it,
The ten thousand things would naturally obey.
Heaven and earth would come together
And gentle rain fall.
Men would need no more instruction
     and all things would take their course.

Once the whole is divided, the parts need names.
There are already enough names.
One must know when to stop.
Knowing when to stop averts trouble.
Tao in the world is like a river flowing home to the sea.

 

 

In internal alchemy, it is said we are born with plentiful energy, but that energy unfolds under pressure and doesn't yet know how to flow internally. Thus babies cry, children run around without knowing how to stop, and the energy finds ways to leak out and develops patterns of leaking out. Especially after the changes of puberty the energy finds ways to leak out, and in time we begin to slow down and recognize the increasing need to care for our health and replenish our energy.

 

In internal alchemy, the stage of "doing" is associated with the cultivation of qi inside of one's self, so as to replenish this lost energy and return to a state of fullness. Once one is full again the operation of non-doing, wu-wei begins. With full energy one wants to spend it, one feels under pressure again like a child, has more difficulty in meditation, etc. The key is learning to seal the leaks so that the energy does not leak outside, and more importantly, to invite the internally energy to flow in cyclical patterns within the body.

 

We can compare this to a body of water like the ocean, with its cycling currents that preserve internal health. The ocean does not deliberately send it's water away, but simply allows the dissipation of this energy off into the atmosphere where it will rain down, form rivers, and eventually return back to the ocean on its own, without the ocean doing anything to ensure this return. In this way the ocean is a good example of how ziran allows the operation of "action" within the process of wu-wei. By simply resting upon it's foundation, it allows itself to become one with all, to travel far, but is unattached and always returns to itself without using deliberate action (inferior de).

 

Heaven and Earth are impartial

They regard myriad things as straw dogs

The sages are impartial

They regard people as straw dogs

The space between Heaven and Earth

Is it not like a bellows?

Empty, and yet never exhausted

It moves, and produces more

Too many words hasten failure

Cannot compare to keeping to the void

 

 

A bellows channels air to flow in one way only. The human lungs breathe air both in and out. The ocean simply rests upon gravity to allow the return of what is taken away - it does not pressurize itself to force water up into the land. In internal alchemy it is said that we nurture the yang breath, and withdraw the yin breath.

 

In the I-Ching, it is described in symbols how yang fills up from the bottom: ䷗ ䷒ ䷊ ䷡ ䷪ ䷀, and when yang culminates, the seed of yin is born within and then yin rises from the bottom: ䷫ ䷠ ䷋ ䷓ ䷖ ䷁, and when yin culminates, the seed of yang is born within and the cycle continues. In human breathing we empty and fill and empty and fill, but in internal alchemy we learn to operate the flow of these hexagrams internally, so that when yang culminates we withdraw the yin response by allowing the energy to flow internally like the ocean currents. Really we just reverse the yin breath so that it does not arise from within, but operates from without, more like: ䷗ ䷒ ䷊ ䷡ ䷪ ䷀ ䷪ ䷡ ䷊ ䷒ ䷗ ䷁ - but please note this is a linear representation, and if you turn it upside down this: ䷪ ䷡ ䷊ ䷒ ䷗ ䷁ becomes the same as this: ䷫ ䷠ ䷋ ䷓ ䷖ ䷁. This is related to the principle of daoist reverse breathing, or embryo breathing. We return the breath to revolve around the original root of existence, and turn our back on the unfolding of existence into creation. Just like the ocean we allow our energy to waft away from the outside, without pushing it out from the inside, but just like the ocean that energy will eventually return. (Please be careful with attempting to change your breath in this way, and find proper instruction from an achieved one, or you can bring harm to yourself. These changes are detailed for our understanding of principle, but they should unfold naturally on their own over time as one simply maintains intention on returning to one's self and to the root of existence within.)

 

Just like heaven and earth we are unminding, treating myriad things as "straw dogs", holding to the void which contains all things, empty yet never exhausted - this is all related to wu-wei.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Daeluin

[Geof Nanto]

My thought for the day......

 

I know that in this world you've always got to show that you're a valid individual. All our lessons show us that, but I often feel exhausted forcing myself to be a match for that kind of ineptitude. I don't want to spend my time trapped in the intensity of engagement.  I want to go on enjoying those slow inactive days, those completely empty afternoons, those evenings with nothing in prospect.

[Daeluin]

Robber Zhi was well-versed in the Way and its virtue, and made his way stealing things from others. In this, he applied wu wei.

 

I just read the chapter on Robber Zhi here: http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/robber-zhi

How incredibly fascinating!

 

I've said before that Confucian Filial Piety seems to describe the importance of nurturing the web of life, yet is unfortunately biased to only the human web of life, thus containing contrivances. Robber Zhi seems to take this a bit further, seeing much of the society of man resting upon a foundation that powerful people build by stealing, killing, and carving out that which they want. Then people like Confucius preach of using virtue to effectively support this mountain of greed that has been carved out of nature. Robber Zhi, as a powerful person, is merely feeding his armies with meat found in nature, claiming no stake to any fame or fortune, content to roam across the whole.

 

 

Secondly, I'm going to question Komjathy too

 

 

I'd like to point out the inherent conflict implied when we say that we should be ourselves and follow our own nature without following our own selfish desires. Humans are already a manifestation of the Way; to stop and question our own nature, being told that we should be wuwei and ziran but only if that means being simple and selfless and ethical, only serves to create more questions and confusion. To be self-so, to follow one's "natural condition", will often entail being murderous, jealous, and greedy, as well as being compassionate, gentle, and "selfless".

 

Water, always following its own nature, can be as destructive a force as we know of, or it can settle and be still, deep in the Earth for aeons. A cow, or hippo, or many other an animal, will be generally soft and at ease -- until threatened, or scared, or disturbed in any way, at which point it may rampage and kill.

 

Robber Zhi, again:

 

 

Looking at the subject in this way, we see that good men do not arise without having the principles of the sages, and that Zhi could not have pursued his course without the same principles. But the good men in the world are few, and those who are not good are many - it follows that the sages benefit the world in a few instances and injure it in many.

 

Found this one here: http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/cutting-open-satchels

 

Essentially, when it comes to cultivating the internal, one learns to walk two roads, cultivating the inner and adapting harmoniously with the outer, so as to protect one's inner environment from mistreatment in the outer environment - this is application of superior virtue. But when it comes to choosing how one might make changes in the world, we can apply anything with inferior virtue. And if we see the construct of man as a cancer, or hurricane, brought about by the ego of men who are not good, then the practice of cutting away at this ego can also be applied by using the same application of highly skilled inferior virtue.

 

But when things contend with each other, some win, some lose. And there is violence. How can it be said that one is good and the other is not good, if they all exercise violence? When we all cultivate the internal and follow ziran, we all nurture the whole.

[Daeluin]

But when things contend with each other, some win, some lose. And there is violence. How can it be said that one is good and the other is not good, if they all exercise violence? When we all cultivate the internal and follow ziran, we all nurture the whole.

 

Working backwards, finally I come to this:

 

OK. I misunderstood. But I'm going to continue to argue with you, because I wonder the following:

 

Is the idea of wu wei to do with values? Or are you applying a certain morality to a concept that is not inherently moral in nature?

 

Robber Zhi was well-versed in the Way and its virtue, and made his way stealing things from others. In this, he applied wu wei.

 

 

吾所謂臧者，非仁義之謂也，臧於其德而已矣；吾所謂臧者，非所謂仁義之謂也，任其性命之情而已矣

(Zhuangzi)

 

When I pronounce men to be good, I am not speaking of their benevolence and righteousness; the goodness is simply (their possession of) the qualities (of the Dao). When I pronounce them to be good, I am not speaking of what are called benevolence and righteousness; but simply of their allowing the nature with which they are endowed to have its free course.

(Legge)

 

My definition of expertness has nothing to do with benevolence and righteousness; it means being expert in regard to your Virtue, that is all. My definition of expertness has nothing to do with benevolence or righteousness; it means following the true form of your inborn nature, that is all.

(Watson)

 

(Ziporyn):

 

What I call good is not Humanity and Responsibility, but just being good at your own Virtuosity. What I call good is certainly not what these people call Humanity and Responsibility! It is just fully allowing the uncontrived condition of your inborn nature and allotment of life to play itself out. What I call sharp hearing is not hearing others, but rather truly hearing yourself, nothing more. What I call sharp vision is not seeing others, but rather truly seeing yourself, nothing more. For to see others without seeing yourself, to gain some external thing without finding yourself, is to attain the success of others without attaining your own success, "to take comfort in the comfort of others but not in your own comfort." In taking their comfort as something external to themselves, Robber Zhi and Bo Yi are alike. Both perverted and distorted themselves. As for me, since I am not entirely shameless in the face of the Course and its Virtuosity, I venture to engage in neither the lofty deeds of Humanity and Responsibility nor in the debased practices of perversity and excess.

 

"In this, he applied wu wei." <- Doesn't sound like that to me.

 

 

High virtue is not virtuous

Therefore it has virtue

Low virtue never loses virtue

Therefore it has no virtue

High virtue takes no contrived action

And acts without agenda

Low virtue takes contrived action

And acts with agenda

High benevolence takes contrived action

And acts without agenda

High righteousness takes contrived action

And acts with agenda

High etiquette takes contrived action

And upon encountering no response

Uses arms to pull others

Therefore, the Tao is lost, and then virtue

Virtue is lost, and then benevolence

Benevolence is lost, and then righteousness

Righteousness is lost, and then etiquette

Those who have etiquette

are a thin shell of loyalty and sincerity

And the beginning of chaos

Those with foreknowledge

Are the flowers of the Tao

And the beginning of ignorance

Therefore the great person:

Abides in substance, and does not dwell on the thin shell

Abides in the real, and does not dwell on the flower

Thus they discard that and take this

 

 

Liu Yiming uses these virtues in a dance of the 5 phases to show that we should not emphasize one or the other, but that if we simply flow with using the right one at the right time, the center is keep and we deepen our integrity with the whole. As ever, when we attach to anything we restrict the flow of our true nature.

 

When it comes to being morally virtuous... we need not look to our external environment to determine how to act, but instead simply look within to see the effects of the external environment upon our center, and then adjust so as to preserve our centered-ness. Even as we maintain inward centered-ness, externally we appear morally virtuous.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Daeluin